July 07, 2004

Chidren Abused At Abu Ghraib The political blog Sadly No has a video of a German television report of abuse of children at Abu Ghraib. For those that dont understand German there is a translation here. There is also an update to the story here.
posted by Sullivan 20 years ago
  • Excerpt:
    One that knows something about this is Sergeant Samuel Provance, from the US Military. He spent half a year stationed at Abu Ghraib. Today, 5 months later, we meet him in Heidelberg. His superiors have strictly forbidden him to speak to journalists about what he experienced in Abu Ghraib. But Provance wants to talk about it nevertheless. His conscience troubles him. He discusses a 16-year old he handled: "He was very afraid, very alone. He had the thinnest arms I had ever seen. His whole body trembled. His wrists were so thin we couldn't put handcuffs on him. As I saw him for the first time and led him to the interrogation, I felt sorry. The interrogation specialists threw water over him and put him into a car, drove him around through the extremely cold night. Afterwards, they covered him with mud and showed him to his imprisoned father, on whom they'd tried other interrogation methods.
    God only knows what those "other interrogation methods" were.
  • fwiw, also linked to our on-going Abu Gharaib (spelling?) thread here. The spelling probably throws of anyone looking for it. Long and short, hands down, no questions asked, final answer: Bush is responsible. Whether or not he knew, whether or not that was his intention, whether or not he takes action; he's Commander in Chief and he is responsible.
  • i await my chance to throw cold water all over jenna bush, drive her through northern canada, cover her in pig feces, and show her to her father, on whom other interrogation techniques will have been tried. but i'm a bush hater ya know...
  • .
  • But did they deserve it?
  • A sixteen year old is not a "child." On the allegations of abuse of a twelve year old, I call bullshit.
  • I'm afraid he'd chuckle and clap his hands, quonset.
  • It was a lot easier back when people like Reagen and Clinton just tortured by proxy, instead of doing it directly. A lot easier for Americans to stomach, it seems. Plus, I mean, Latin America is just full of bananas and coke. (Please, no monkey jokes.) The US also executes child offenders. I mean, it isn't like any of this surprises me. None of this torture stuff has. And did these people deserve to be tortured, is probably what freethought is asking, although I cannot be certain, because he failed to elaborate. If I know anything about American justice in the post-9/11 world, it usually has a lot to do with arresting funny looking non-white people. And fucking hell, isn't Iraq just full of them. Human rights and all that jazz is just for the whites, clearly. Geneva Convention? Innocent until proven guilty? Hey, we're not fighting a war in Europe. This is sand nigger territory! God bless.
  • I really hope so that, in the end, it turns out that Sy Hersh was exaggerating. On the other hand, what effect some video with a child minor would have on the coming elections, I wonder?
  • On the allegations of abuse of a twelve year old, I call bullshit. Of course. The Bush administration deserves the benefit of the doubt. HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
  • And did these people deserve to be tortured, is probably what freethought is asking I hoped my question would be seen as absurd. A sixteen year old is not a "child." That's right, a sixteen-year-old is only slightly less mature than those fighting the war.
  • If the sixteen year old is old enough to join the resistance, then he is old enough to be treated as an enemy combatant. Or mistreated, as is likely in this case. Pardon my skepticism about a German Sixty Minutes clone quoting an Iraqi "journalist" quoting a twelve-year-old girl bystander's claims. Sure, it must be true. In fact, I heard that the American forces held her down and raped her repeatedly while her ninety-year-old great-grandfather was forced to watch. Jihad, my brothers! Death to America! Death to Carter!
  • The Bush Administration is much more believable. Although there is the "child molestation" angle of Once the accusation has been made, the damage is done, regardless of whether the accused is innocent or guilty.
  • Your original intent of absurdity has been noted, freethought. Sorry 'bout that! My point still stands for those who'd have said the same thing in seriousness, though. And goetter, for all we know, American soliders have raped Iraqi girls, and we just haven't heard about it yet. Also, look up "child soldiers". Not all young people willingly join armed groups. This sixteen year old likely joined of his own violation, but that doesn't make this whole case any less abhorent. "Enemy combatant" is very much a Bushism, it seems. A term used for people we don't feel like extending rights to. But it was all worth it, really, since we finally found those weapons of mass destruction... or freed the people... or stopped Osama from launching an attack from Saddam's bathroom... whatever the reasoning of the moment is. I totally believe in the holy purity of our Western crusader forces. Was that "Death to Carter" a reference to Jimmy Carter funding Islamic fundamentalists in the war against the Soviet Union?
  • Your original intent of absurdity has been noted Cool. Next up is to see how my "maturity" comment plays out. Which way will it read ... ?
  • If the sixteen year old is old enough to join the resistance, then he is old enough to be treated as an enemy combatant. What, does that mean it's okay to throw water and mud all over him and show him to his father?
  • Only if an iron maiden [mp3] isn't handy.
  • From all that I've read, many of the prisoners were picked up in "sweep" type arrests. Often, whole families were captured and incarcerated for interrogation purposes, reportedly with a lack of evidence that any of them were terrorists or whatever. It's still not clear to me that the prisoners have been charged with anything, much less convicted. I'm sure that many of the prisoners are bad guys, but chances are great that not all are. And, while 16 year olds aren't "children", they're not adults, either. And the 16 year old described by Provance was certainly a child while he was being "interrogated." I'd love for this to not be true, but...
  • Most adults aren't adults. I never noticed how strange looking that word was before.
  • Licence is pretty weird, too. Licence. Licence. Licence.
  • If you're taking a blanket-approach to 'arrests', as Coalition forces in Iraq are, it means many of the people you arrest are going to be innocent, but you cast a wide net to get them off the street just in case. (For the record, this was probably needed in Iraq, where the invading force was uncertain about the strength of resistance and weren't even sure who they were fighting - residual Republican guard, foreign mujahideen, or grass-roots resistance) To maintain the moral pretense of the invasion - whether it be 'Iraqi liberation!' or 'drop those WMDs, punk!', it's important to treat prisoners well, and then use your counter-intel or military investigative units in the prisons to find out who warrants torturing for information. So you focus on cell leaders instead of a child who fired a single round out of his uncle's Yugoslav-made bolt action 98k at a tank column and got captured. You win two ways: One, you don't waste resources torturing the wrong people. Two, you don't have your soldiers found to be torturing fucking children.
  • goetter, if you're gonna link an Iron Maiden mp3; make sure that it's actually a real Iron Maiden mp3.
  • Let's not forget Donald Rumsfeld approving the use of dogs.
  • Well sure, The Ruminator knows that everbody loves dogs! Lowers blood pressure and whatnot. Why wouldn't he approve the . . . use of dogs
  • I'm still mad at goetter for not posting a real Iron Maiden mp3. I had to do an online search to hear Run To the Hills. Everybody sing along! Soldier blue on the barren wastes Hunting and killing their game Raping the women and wasting the men The only good Indians are tame Selling them whisky and taking their gold Enslaving the young and destroying the old Run to the hills run for your lives (repeat to end)
  • On the allegations of abuse of a twelve year old, I call bullshit. Of all the horrible anti-American things our government has done since 9/11, the story that shocked me the most was this (from 2003). Admittedly, the two children in this story, aged 7 and 9, were not tortured, merely kidnapped. But after I heard that our government had abducted these children, were apparently not even trying to cover it up, and have gotten no serious flak for it, I could no longer put any potential horror past them. Torturing 12 year olds seems well within the realm of the possible (even likely) to me.
  • goetter - In the US, a 16 year old is portrayed by the media as an innocent child if the victim of a crime and a hardened criminal adult if even suspected of wrongdoing. So of course your comments are reasonable in that context - that of a propagandist.
  • Considering these children aren't imprisoned in the US, or even under the auspices of the US legal system, it really doesn't matter. No matter the age, if they are a combatant they should be treated like one. My problem with this is, I doubt in many cases they're combatants, and more likely were just caught in the net of a military mass-arrest of an entire household where a brother or father or uncle is a jihadist. And even if they are a combatant, unless they hold information pertinent to operations, torturing them is achieving nothing but bad press.
  • Nauseating, under any circumstances, that we would choose to treat people like this. I look forward to a generation of PTSD sociopaths on their way home in about six years. See also: the new New Yorker article by Dan Baum: "The Price of Valor" on the nature of coping with being a killer and the military's lack of interest in the problem.
  • I'm not really that hot on America any more. I never liked the experiment much anyway, but I think the Yanks have really fucked it up. This is not something that the US will recover from just by getting a new president, this shit is forever. You've become that which you claimed you hated.
  • The experiment never stops. We haven't become anything. Our leaders have. Our leaders aren't us, they are the people who represent us. Sometimes they don't do a good job. That's why we have elections. If we keep electing the same leaders to do the same things, then that's another story entirely. Germany and Japan were allowed to rejoin civilized society. Could we at least get the benefit of the doubt?
  • Oh, go on. But don't think you're going to that party tomorrow night.
  • Germany and Japan were allowed to rejoin civilized society. They were?????
  • Nostrildamus your (previous) comment is exactly why I'm so anti-Bush. We wouldn't be in this fucked up situation if George W. Bush wasn't president. We are seriously screwed because that fucking half-wit has underhandedly pried his way into the most powerful office. He's not alone and (let's say) 40% of the country thinks what Bush (and by extension the country) has done is great, yes. So- we have lots of work to do, but "becoming the thing we claim to hate" is not forever. We can fix it. Step one: Boot the Cowboy.
  • Step two: More Cowbell. And what pete_best_v4.2 said. It's going to take work, probably decades of work, but the damage can be repaired. I hope your use of "you" doesn't include every living American, as I think you're smart enough to know that "President" Asshat doesn't speak for all of us. We didn't elect him, most of us aren't happy with him, and we're going to do what we can to clean house in a couple of months.
  • What's the youngest age you think you could teach a child to take up arms, attack and remember information?
  • A very special apology [mp3] for Sullivan.
  • From Juan Cole's blog a month ago.
    Iraqi women were also abused at Abu Ghuraib, according to the Taguba report and reports of photographs seen by the US Congress. As this Islamist PakNews story notes, most of the reporting on torture and abuse of detainees at Abu Ghuraib has focused on men. It is clear, however, that Iraqi women were also made to strip naked, were photographed in that compromising position, and it is alleged that some were raped by US military personnel. Although, of course, the soldiers who behaved this way and the officers who authorized or allowed it were not "crusaders," as the article alleges, the abuse of women was designed to take advantage of Muslim and Arab ideas concerning female honor.
  • Don't know how credible the news source is, but it seems to be matching everything else I've been reading.
    Jawad Kadom, 44, a merchant from the Aadumya area of Baghdad, said his 15-year-old son was arrested a month ago while playing with friends. "The Americans are arresting kids from our streets - is that American power?" he said, adding that he had only seen his son once since his detention. "Is this freedom? Is this democracy, to arrest kids from the streets under the excuse that they are part of the resistance?"
  • What's the youngest age you think you could teach a child to take up arms, attack and remember information? I'm sure you could teach my seven year old son to do those things. But he also thinks Bush is cool because he might turn into a tree (because bushes when they grow up presumably get bigger and therefore presumably turn into trees). Can you really treat someone whose grasp on the world is that fragile as either 1) a responsible party or 2) a reliable source of information when under torture/conditions approaching torture(as if anyone is).
  • krebs cycle, once the government of Iraq under Saddam Hussein fell, there was no longer a war, and hence activities conducted under the auspices of occupation were not technically war crimes. In fact, there was never even a formal declaration of war on Iraq in the first place. Add to this that Bush granted magical immunity to US troops for war crimes, and that America has never really given a fuck about conventions during war, and there's really not much precedent for prosecution.
  • cephalophile, what you say could all very well be true. I believe things done as an occupying power can still be classified as war crimes even if hostilities have technically ceased, but I am not positive of this, and, in any event, you are certainly correct about the magical immunity. I am not expecting that anyone will be prosecuted. I was merely pointing out that mistreatment of noncombatant children by US forces is not uncommon. The reports of children held and mistreated at Abu Ghriab are not surprising in light of our previous actions.
  • I say the standard goes both ways. If you can hold prisoners of war without declaring war, then you can be prosecuted for war crimes without declaring war.
  • Real player video of John Ashcroft refusing to turn over the torture memo. Man, does Joe Biden look pissed.
  • "a series of massive crimes, criminal activity by the president and the vice president, by this administration anyway…war crimes." anyone want to defend Il Bushybashi on this? Is it clear that permission from the White House to act in this manner was given? Apart from the SCOTUS shredding our representative republic by installing this assclown, this has got to be the worst of his myriad scandals.
  • apologies for the tone, but I want some fucking justice on this one. Spin ain't gonna cut it.
  • apologies for the tone, but I want some fucking justice on this one. Spin ain't gonna cut it. Spin is all you're gonna get Pete. I love people saying, "Well, we still needed to take Saddam out. This isn't as bad."
  • Sorry pete, but I'm with Sullivan. Recognise any of these tactics? "How to discredit an unwelcome report: Stage One: Refuse to publish in the public interest saying 1. There are security considerations. 2. The findings could be misinterpreted. 3. You are waiting for the results of a wider and more detailed report which is still in preparation. (If there isn't one, commission it; this gives you even more time). Stage Two: Discredit the evidence you are not publishing, saying 1. It leaves important questions unanswered. 2. Much of the evidence is inconclusive. 3. The figures are open to other interpretations. 4. Certain findings are contradictory. 5. Some of the main conclusions have been questioned. (If they haven't, question them yourself; then they have). Stage Three: Undermine the recommendations. Suggested phrases: 1. 'Not really a basis for long term decisions'. 2. 'Not sufficient information on which to base a valid assessment'. 3. 'No reason for any fundamental rethink of existing policy'. 4. 'Broadly speaking, it endorses current practice'. Stage Four: Discredit the person who produced the report. Explain (off the record) that 1. He is harbouring a grudge against the Department. 2. He is a publicity seeker. 3. He is trying to get a Knighthood/Chair/Vice Chancellorship. 4. He used to be a consultant to a multinational. 5. He wants to be a consultant to a multinational." Muy bananas to the monkey who can recognise the quote (no Googling now!)
  • I see it as a separate issue from the main Abu Gharib scandal - these are children. Bush is responsible and his glib smirking isn't exactly taking this seriously. Maybe he genuinely doesn't give a fuck but Rummy or someone needs to get hung out to dry. I want legal charges filed. I want hour-long investigative specials on tv. I want impeach-fucking-ment. This has got to be the worst abuse of power since Nixon (or before). What did Sen. Warner say yesterday at the captiol? Is this still being investigated?
  • I want impeach-fucking-ment. Yup. But good luck with that. Nobody's going to pursue it, not this close to an election.
  • Nor with both houses chock full o' elephants either. If Bush himself were on film sodomizing children they'd clap their hands while the reporters ran a story on the planned mission to mars. I'm a little outraged. Perhaps a refreshing adult beverage would make everything okay. Apologies for the bile.
  • If the Dems win in November, what are the chances of them fully investigating this, and following through if the results are nasty?
  • I guess it would depend on who the particular Dems are. I'd like to think that representatives would to the right thing and hand out some punishment to the perpetrators regardless of party affiliation. Sad to say I don't believe the current crop is interested in not supporting the White House's approach to this. Maybe McCain.
  • I want impeach-fucking-ment. Nobody's going to pursue it, not this close to an election. Unless Bush gets a consentual blowjob from an intern. Because that would be immoral.
  • praise Jeezus brother, praise Jeezus.
  • If the Dems win in November, what are the chances of them fully investigating this, and following through if the results are nasty? If this was Dean (who I'm not a big fan of) he would be smart enough to ram this down the GOP's throat. Kerry is a question mark.
  • Why would anyone impeach Bush? Wouldn't that mean that Cheney runs the show then?
  • Double Secret Impeachment.
  • if only Dean would stand up and yell "OPEN ELECTIONS" for the delegates at the convention...
  • what do you think about starting an FPP regarding impeaching Bushybashi & Chainy? It could detail each scandal, kick up some noise, find out the details of impeachment, link to like-minded sites, y'know - groovin it, doin it! Hit me now! *bomp!**bomp!**bomp!**bomp!**bomp!*
  • Every time I hear about one of these atrocities, I email president@whitehouse.gov and vicepresident@whitehouse.gov to state that they are personally responsible for the latest. And I frame it in language that might almost mean I would have voted Republican if it hadn't happened. It might not change their policies, but it does make me feel better.
  • boing boing has a link to a video of Seymour Hersh talking to the ACLU about Abu Ghraib.
  • GrrrrRRRRRRRR!!!! Forks! Smash that shit! Ahrg! Stupid . . Worthless! . . . Complete Bastard Fucks!! Someone explain to me how this isn't "republican" stonewalling. I know enough republicans to know that's total BS. Goddamn somebody has to give a flying shit about abused children on that hill.
  • Goddamn somebody has to give a flying shit about abused children on that hill. To quote John Stewart: "It isn't important that we tortured. It's important that we don't condone it."
  • Yes, but it is right to raise hell over this when there is reason to siuppose further investigation is being put off/delayed merely to protect the very individuals who may well have authorized it in the first place. Which is an outrageous and intolerable state of affairs coming from any goverenment which purports to care about human rights, family values, and all the rest of the liars' litany people in the US and elsewhere have been forced to listen to in recent years.
  • I'm wondering how to get this story back on the front pages. Maybe SideDish knows?
  • Think the Guantanamo mess may be about to take the headlines soon, pete_best. Recent US Supreme Court decision seems to have resulted in all the prisoners there being informed of their suddenly reinvigourated rights to contest their imprisonment in US courts.
  • *sigh*
  • No, pete, tears.
  • Evidence for Hersh's claims of child sexual abuse at Abu Ghraib? I finally beat with a link in a thread. *high fives himself and does happy dance* *P.S. Sits down when realizes that no one gives a shit.* Hey, look. Cute puppy picture!
  • dang. Props to the Sullister.
  • it makes me think about the suburban housewive on "Morning Edition" last week who said she was going to vote for Bush because she liked his "values". According to England, Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick made an X on another prisoner's chest with his finger and said, "Watch this." Then the six-foot-tall Fredericks punched the man in the chest. The hooded prisoner lurched backward and fell to his knees. He gasped for air. "Frederick said he thought he put the detainee in cardiac arrest," Sivits later told investigators. England was asked why she thought Frederick assaulted the man. "I guess just because he wanted to hit him," she said. I hope those pieces of shit . . . goddamn.
  • This is going to ride on our backs like the biggest fucking monkey in history. We'll be lucky if the tarnish wears off by 2104.
  • Yup. Weasel-words like 'prisoner abuse' are shameful attempts to avoid seeing the situation for what it is. The word is torture, get it out in the open and start dealing with it, for pity's sake. War crimes is one we're not hearing yet, but I think eventually it must come to that.
  • exactly, media. Getting it out in the media open is exactly what media needs to do. My question is, how can we the media people get that done? Writing to congresspersons is important but it doesn't get in John Q. Media's face like it needs to to have the media impact of convicting those responsible, shaming the media government for allowing this, and bringing media justice to those so injured. Some media person explain how this issue gets airtime or ink when all governmental agencies have fallen media silent?
  • Nice find, homunculus! The NEJM usually carries some clout. Deeds done in violation/vile elation of the traditional oath will sooner or later be examined. The US has incurred some very bad karma.
  • I think homunculus should be working in intelligence. Them's some mad skills, yo.
  • How do you know I'm not? *adds middleclasstool to list*
  • *puts $5 in homunculus' tip jar, stands around bobbing head to the crazy sax sounds*
  • “Such assaults are unacceptable. It is against international laws and it is also unacceptable from a moral point of view. This is why we react strongly … We are addressing this in a very severe and direct way and present concrete demands. This is damaging the struggle for democracy and human rights in Iraq.” Go Norway! Government representatives show a frickin' spine! Well, I'm sure that in short time the US Congressional Committee will take a similary strong view. "I think he should stop the hearings at this point; we've heard enough," said Sen. James M. Inhofe (R-Okla.), a committee member. "We have a war to win, and we need to keep our talents concentrated on winning the war as opposed to prisoner treatment." Ah yes. Keep our talents concentrated. Excellent point James M. Inhofe. Screw the damn Arab kids. And, by extension, screw their democracy, their justice, their rights. Sheer brilliance.
  • Yet, again I emailed both the president and vice president about their responsibity for the bad stuff that happens on their watch. Talking about it here, with no other effort won't change things. But, if they get enough reasoned, almost might be republican protests, maybe they'll modify their stance. I pointed out that they were against abortion and stem cell research since those killed "innocents", then asked them when innocence stopped. Find your own spin, but don't let them avoid hearing from all of us great unwashed when we really can't agree with the actions of their agencies.
  • a good point - as always. Can someone dig up the "locate your representative" page?
  • The one thing that despots truly need is to avoid accountability. *ding!* *ding!**ding!**ding!**ding!**ding!**ding!**ding!**ding!*
  • Jesus H. Rutabaga Christ it's about fucking time the WaPo picked up this story. Lazy bastards.