meredithea: "If a woman feels that she can't properly support a child without the help of the father, she may feel that she simply has to have an abortion (even if she doesn't want it) if the father were able to abdicate his responsibility for support."
She might feel that way, sure. But I was discussing thoughts, not feelings. Given that, I think that the hypothetical woman in question is incorrect in her assumption that Abortion is the only available choice once a potential father opts out; others have listed some of the many alternatives already.
meredithea: However, what are your thoughts on pre-natal care? This is pretty darn expensive, and should the woman bear sole responsibility for this?
I thought I said, somewhere, that the man's financial responsibility should cover (and end with) either the birth or the abortion. I had assumed, in my head, that pre-natal care was part of the birth. I probably should have typed that out, sorry.
meredithea: "(I hope I don't sound like I'm picking on you or anyone else. I'm just interested!)"
It's all good.
Smo: "Well, my point is that the choice we ought to be concerned with is the choice to have sex. A man owns exactly half of the responsiblity for that."
This only works if the man also inherits half the choice of what to do with the fetus if it gets created. Culpability can't change in the middle of the game, that's called a "bait and switch".
Also, for the record, I think this idea (that "the choice we ought to be concerned with is the choice to have sex") is pure poppycock, as the natural result of sex is not always children. If it were formulaic, i.e. unprotected sex = child 100% of the time, or even 90% of the time, than I'd proabably start to agree a little more. However, the odds against pregnancy are actually much higher than the odds for if one has unprotected sex with a woman at random times during her cycle.
Frankly, it sounds to me like you are trying to make sure people have less sex in general, because you think things are better that way, and are simply trying to shoehorn reasons into this cause so that you won't appear to be judgemental. But, I can't prove that, its just how it looks to me.
Addendum: I do not believe that a man should be able to railroad a woman into an abortion she doesn't want, any more than I think that a woman should be able to force a man to deal with an as-yet-born human he does not wish to pay for. I just wanted to point out the problem with Underpants Monster's apparent double-standard.
Any law that would allow a man to not take responsibility for his child, when he had every chance to avoid having said child, is unfair. There.
Not allowing a man the right to abort said child, is not giving him every chance to avoid having said child.
You're right, it's unfair...but to make it fair by allowing fathers to opt out of responsibility would make it unfair to the child, by denying him/her the financial support they would otherwise receive.
The needs of the child are paramount in all decisions involving support.
I really take issue with this, Rocket88. In the situations we're discussing here, there is no child. Not yet, in the case of a pregnant woman. Thus, I don't think this argument is applicable - there are no needs of any child to consider in the case of an unborn fetus; and I find it disingeneous at best to plead "for the children" when the only other person in these scenareos is a pregnant woman.
Also, I think Underpants Monster is missing the point entirely with the whole "that's the way it is, and you shouldn't have sex if you don't like it" tack on the discussion. As I'm understanding things, the thread seems to be about how fair or unfair the law is, not especially about how to avoid getting in a tight spot due to the current status of the law.
But that's just me.
I think child support on an unborn fetus is a retarded, greed-filled concept that should be done away with completely. There is no child to support; not yet, and as that's the case, a man very well should be able to opt out. I can't help but to see this garbage as simple extortion on the part of a pregnant woman - a way to force a man into a financial agreement regarding a decision he legally cannot even have half a say in making.
I do think that a man has some financial responsibility, but I think this should be limited to either HALF the cost of an abortion, or HALF the cost of birth/adoption. No more, no less.
However, when it comes to existing children that a man has helped father, but now decides it isn't for him (i.e., divorce or separation after a child is born) – I think this was supposed to be the intent of the concept of child support. Yes, he can opt out of parenting, but should at least continue financing the support.
I'd like to comment on the KDE vs. GNOME thing. All of these are my _opinions_.
KDE Pros: Probably the most complete and mature GUI available on the linux desktop. There's always a way to configure it to do what you want it to do. Eyecandy out the nose. Even if you don't use it, some of the KDE apps are indispensible - specific shout outs to Konqueror (best file manager in Linux, hands down), K3B (best CD burner I've ever used on any platform), and amoroK (iTunes wishes it could be this. Really.) Just about every bell and whistle you can think up can be done in KDE, and configured from the GUI.
KDE Cons: Absolutely the heaviest GUI in terms of system resources that I have ever seen (processor always busy, usually with all the spice animations and such, and ram - a default Kubuntu desktop, upon login, likes to take up 320 of the 512M in my system, with no extra apps running.) Because of this, also one of the slowest I've witnessed. One of the busiest GUI's around, in terms of available widgets/icons/options/pulldown menus, which can make even simple tasks very time-consuming to accomplish (there are four separate sections of the Kcontrol control panel that deal with how the GUI looks. Each one of these sections have multiple tabs.) All of the icons look like they are made of glass (the OsX influence is easy to spot here), so much so that many icons are difficult to distinguish from one another at first glance.
When I use KDE, I often spend more time tweaking it than I do using my computer... but for a Windows convert, newbie, or control freak, its arguably the best desktop around.
GNOME Pros: While not as complete and mature as KDE, it is very capable as a desktop environment. Its more simplistic design and more plain layout makes for a very functional default arrangement. Some of its default apps are also practically mandatory – Evolution (which can use Exchange servers) is incredible, GAIM (IM client for just about every protocol) is a must. A more lightweight desktop in terms of processor/ram – in Ubuntu's Breezy release, a virgin desktop hits me at about 240m of Ram on average, and the processor is generally idle much of the time (unless I'm running apps). (The development version of GNOME is even better in this regard – RAM usage has basically been halved on my system, and this rivals some of the DE's touted as “lightweight”, like XFCE.) The direction of some of the art/HIG is looking way up, giving a more corporate look and feel to the environment, and more and more system configuration is being rolled up into the desktop's functionality.
GNOME Cons: Many complain that GNOME lacks features, and this is difficult to argue with. It is not as “tweakable” as KDE, and sometimes getting GNOME or some of its apps to do exactly what you want can be daunting. If you're a fan of eye candy, you may have to work on GNOME – a lot - to make it pretty. Because of display libraries and font rendering, GNOME can feel sluggish at times (though this too has been overhauled in the latest dev version, so it won't be a complaint for long). Some of the GNOME apps don't look or feel as “unified” with the desktop environments as KDE apps do. Slow to add even heavily requested features.
When I use GNOME, I generally find myself to be very productive. I do wish it were a bit more capable (the file manager, Nautilus, is notoriously spartan), and with environments like KDE and OSX around, it sure could work on its “wow” factor.
Whichever linux you choose, use a LIVECD first.
Good Luck. (P.S.: I can't recommend any Apple products: prohibitive price, very restrictive hardware/software monopoly, lack of gaming capability, among other reasons. I also find them to be underpowered: compared to similarly spec'd nForce-based Athlon64 system, a G5 will almost always lose a benchmark. Just CAN'T beat the style and easy as 1-2-3, though.)
Wow. Wow.
Thank you, everyone, for the responses. It's given me a lot to think about. All of you well wishers have really boosted my spirits, and helped us all try to find a little light in a dark situation.
The big decision both has, and hasn't, been made yet. That is to say, where we ultimately end up is way up in the air, but we need to start somewhere now, and that now is going to be Austin is we can swing it.
This is because of a requirement I hadn't really thought about: half of us are homeowners in New Orleans, and my wife has family in Lake Charles who are at death's doorstep. Proximity is a factor I can't ignore, in those cases, and I don't know how much unfinished business I'm going to have to take care of in Lake Orleans in the next year.
So all you Austinites, lookout. This is your official Incoming Cajun warning.
As for long term: I lived in SF for about 5.5 years before moving back here in '04 (perhaps not the smartest idea, but hey, you know what they say about hindsight...). I loved it, but missed home, and natural disasters are really a little more real to me now - I'm trying to avoid places that get destroyed and rebuilt on a semi-regular basis.
Portland and Seattle sound very good, but I'm still skittish about those for the very same reasons.
Canada: Canada is where I've really wanted to be for a long, long time now, but I don't think they'd have me... I lack the degree / 2nd language that would give me enough points to enter the country. I'm bummed about that, but have hope due to the suggestion that it is easier to get into Canada than I'd thought. I'd love nothing more than to end up there in a few years, when all this is settled and I can snag enough money to get up there... I just don't know how. Maybe I'll learn french.
I'm rambling now, perhaps I needed the distraction. Again, thank you all for your suggestions - I've saved the thread, so once I have things like a proper Mailing Address and Work in the Morning, and a little leisure, I can mull them all over with the gang and plan for the future.
(And they say that the Internet has nothing to do with real life. Ha!)
Again, thank you all for being who you are. You really are halping carry us through this thing.
Tech Friendly = I'm a PHP / MySQL / C / Perl / Bash programmer and Linux / Windows server tech and IT Administrator. I'd like to keep a job in that field, so "Tech Friendly" means "computer geek work available". ;-)
I also would like the place to be lenient on people who smoke grass. Not that, you know, I'd do a thing like that, but I do enjoy the general attitude and mindset of an area that turns a blind eye to those sorts of things.
"You might be right. But, you see, thinking in these terms�where you assume the worst about others"
...you're new to this "internet" thing, aren't you? ;-)
"ironically and tellingly, you're condemning."
And you were doing so well, until you screwed it up right here.
I'm not condemning anything. I'm stating that this is likely how I think things'd turn out if the one asking the question were a man, and why I think they'd turn out that way.
We now return you to your unnecessary, but somehow regularly scheduled, jump to conclusions.
"I'm not seeing it--how would this be different? Are you both suggesting that if a man asked, we all would be more likely to make rape and physical assault equivilent?"
No.
If I had to wager a guess? I'd say that the hypothetical man doing the hypothetical asking would be flamed, marginalized, and insulted all to hell and back for daring to even think about relating an idea that possibly comes within ten miles of beginning to believe that rape might not be the absolute worst thing on the face of the earth to anyone of any gender.
Because, obstensibly, there would be no way for him to understand, being the proud posessor of a different set of dangly bits.
However, this is just my guess. I could well be wrong.
You know, not too long ago, I would have given a lot to have a MeFi membership, and jumped for joy at the sound of the membership opening up.
But, you know… after basking in the wonderfulness that is MoFi, I really don’t think I’ll bother.
Loathe as I truly am about offending the dual-member’d MoFiites here, it must be said that MeFi has enough problems, both technical and otherwise, to make me not want to read it any longer, much less join it. And nothing brings out these issues more than being a MonkeyFilter member.
The downtime is a big problem. Though I feel a passing stab of pity for all the issues MeFi has had lately, I have to wonder why almost no one is saying how mathowie didn’t see this coming. IIS? + Jrun? + CF?? I mean, I’ll be as nice about it as I can in this post, but isn’t it kind of odd how no really huge, well-backed, multi-user, uptime-dependant sites out there ever seem to use any part of this combination, much less more than one if these componants? Isn’t it even odder that no comments I’ve read on the topic (and I’ve read a lot of them, though not all) seem willing to point this out?
The elitism and barely-veiled prejudice of the MeFi users – while generally in the background – seems to be much more prominent these days also. There is a huge – HUGE – thread about how MeFi can improve its situation by somehow trying to guarantee diversity among new members.
I’ll say that again, just because it is both scary and ridiculous.
There is a large thread’s worth of suggestions about how to make sure that MeFi’s next membership spree can somehow guarantee diversity – racial, religious, you name it – among the new members. The implied statement, I think, is somewhere between “no membership for you unless you can somehow show us that you are entertaining” and “there are too many North American members – therefore, we should do what we can to ensure that any North American memberships fail.”
The third issue is that I can’t post this, or a comment like this, to MeFi itself. And in the past, I’ve wanted to comment on so many things, so many times, that reading conversations on MeFi is becoming little more than an exercise in frustration.
It is thus that MeFi is purged from the bookmarks today, and this latest promise of MeFi membership will be largely answered with a Yawn by me.
I have a Sony W600i, and I think it's fantastic. Does all that, and file transfers work in $not_windows. I'd recommend one to anyone.
posted by WorLord 18 years ago
In "Child Support!"
meredithea: "If a woman feels that she can't properly support a child without the help of the father, she may feel that she simply has to have an abortion (even if she doesn't want it) if the father were able to abdicate his responsibility for support." She might feel that way, sure. But I was discussing thoughts, not feelings. Given that, I think that the hypothetical woman in question is incorrect in her assumption that Abortion is the only available choice once a potential father opts out; others have listed some of the many alternatives already. meredithea: However, what are your thoughts on pre-natal care? This is pretty darn expensive, and should the woman bear sole responsibility for this? I thought I said, somewhere, that the man's financial responsibility should cover (and end with) either the birth or the abortion. I had assumed, in my head, that pre-natal care was part of the birth. I probably should have typed that out, sorry. meredithea: "(I hope I don't sound like I'm picking on you or anyone else. I'm just interested!)" It's all good. Smo: "Well, my point is that the choice we ought to be concerned with is the choice to have sex. A man owns exactly half of the responsiblity for that." This only works if the man also inherits half the choice of what to do with the fetus if it gets created. Culpability can't change in the middle of the game, that's called a "bait and switch". Also, for the record, I think this idea (that "the choice we ought to be concerned with is the choice to have sex") is pure poppycock, as the natural result of sex is not always children. If it were formulaic, i.e. unprotected sex = child 100% of the time, or even 90% of the time, than I'd proabably start to agree a little more. However, the odds against pregnancy are actually much higher than the odds for if one has unprotected sex with a woman at random times during her cycle. Frankly, it sounds to me like you are trying to make sure people have less sex in general, because you think things are better that way, and are simply trying to shoehorn reasons into this cause so that you won't appear to be judgemental. But, I can't prove that, its just how it looks to me.
posted by WorLord 18 years ago
Addendum: I do not believe that a man should be able to railroad a woman into an abortion she doesn't want, any more than I think that a woman should be able to force a man to deal with an as-yet-born human he does not wish to pay for. I just wanted to point out the problem with Underpants Monster's apparent double-standard.
posted by WorLord 18 years ago
Any law that would allow a man to not take responsibility for his child, when he had every chance to avoid having said child, is unfair. There. Not allowing a man the right to abort said child, is not giving him every chance to avoid having said child.
posted by WorLord 18 years ago
You're right, it's unfair...but to make it fair by allowing fathers to opt out of responsibility would make it unfair to the child, by denying him/her the financial support they would otherwise receive. The needs of the child are paramount in all decisions involving support. I really take issue with this, Rocket88. In the situations we're discussing here, there is no child. Not yet, in the case of a pregnant woman. Thus, I don't think this argument is applicable - there are no needs of any child to consider in the case of an unborn fetus; and I find it disingeneous at best to plead "for the children" when the only other person in these scenareos is a pregnant woman. Also, I think Underpants Monster is missing the point entirely with the whole "that's the way it is, and you shouldn't have sex if you don't like it" tack on the discussion. As I'm understanding things, the thread seems to be about how fair or unfair the law is, not especially about how to avoid getting in a tight spot due to the current status of the law. But that's just me.
posted by WorLord 18 years ago
I think child support on an unborn fetus is a retarded, greed-filled concept that should be done away with completely. There is no child to support; not yet, and as that's the case, a man very well should be able to opt out. I can't help but to see this garbage as simple extortion on the part of a pregnant woman - a way to force a man into a financial agreement regarding a decision he legally cannot even have half a say in making. I do think that a man has some financial responsibility, but I think this should be limited to either HALF the cost of an abortion, or HALF the cost of birth/adoption. No more, no less. However, when it comes to existing children that a man has helped father, but now decides it isn't for him (i.e., divorce or separation after a child is born) – I think this was supposed to be the intent of the concept of child support. Yes, he can opt out of parenting, but should at least continue financing the support.
posted by WorLord 18 years ago
In "Curious George: OS wars."
I'd like to comment on the KDE vs. GNOME thing. All of these are my _opinions_. KDE Pros: Probably the most complete and mature GUI available on the linux desktop. There's always a way to configure it to do what you want it to do. Eyecandy out the nose. Even if you don't use it, some of the KDE apps are indispensible - specific shout outs to Konqueror (best file manager in Linux, hands down), K3B (best CD burner I've ever used on any platform), and amoroK (iTunes wishes it could be this. Really.) Just about every bell and whistle you can think up can be done in KDE, and configured from the GUI. KDE Cons: Absolutely the heaviest GUI in terms of system resources that I have ever seen (processor always busy, usually with all the spice animations and such, and ram - a default Kubuntu desktop, upon login, likes to take up 320 of the 512M in my system, with no extra apps running.) Because of this, also one of the slowest I've witnessed. One of the busiest GUI's around, in terms of available widgets/icons/options/pulldown menus, which can make even simple tasks very time-consuming to accomplish (there are four separate sections of the Kcontrol control panel that deal with how the GUI looks. Each one of these sections have multiple tabs.) All of the icons look like they are made of glass (the OsX influence is easy to spot here), so much so that many icons are difficult to distinguish from one another at first glance. When I use KDE, I often spend more time tweaking it than I do using my computer... but for a Windows convert, newbie, or control freak, its arguably the best desktop around. GNOME Pros: While not as complete and mature as KDE, it is very capable as a desktop environment. Its more simplistic design and more plain layout makes for a very functional default arrangement. Some of its default apps are also practically mandatory – Evolution (which can use Exchange servers) is incredible, GAIM (IM client for just about every protocol) is a must. A more lightweight desktop in terms of processor/ram – in Ubuntu's Breezy release, a virgin desktop hits me at about 240m of Ram on average, and the processor is generally idle much of the time (unless I'm running apps). (The development version of GNOME is even better in this regard – RAM usage has basically been halved on my system, and this rivals some of the DE's touted as “lightweight”, like XFCE.) The direction of some of the art/HIG is looking way up, giving a more corporate look and feel to the environment, and more and more system configuration is being rolled up into the desktop's functionality. GNOME Cons: Many complain that GNOME lacks features, and this is difficult to argue with. It is not as “tweakable” as KDE, and sometimes getting GNOME or some of its apps to do exactly what you want can be daunting. If you're a fan of eye candy, you may have to work on GNOME – a lot - to make it pretty. Because of display libraries and font rendering, GNOME can feel sluggish at times (though this too has been overhauled in the latest dev version, so it won't be a complaint for long). Some of the GNOME apps don't look or feel as “unified” with the desktop environments as KDE apps do. Slow to add even heavily requested features. When I use GNOME, I generally find myself to be very productive. I do wish it were a bit more capable (the file manager, Nautilus, is notoriously spartan), and with environments like KDE and OSX around, it sure could work on its “wow” factor. Whichever linux you choose, use a LIVECD first. Good Luck. (P.S.: I can't recommend any Apple products: prohibitive price, very restrictive hardware/software monopoly, lack of gaming capability, among other reasons. I also find them to be underpowered: compared to similarly spec'd nForce-based Athlon64 system, a G5 will almost always lose a benchmark. Just CAN'T beat the style and easy as 1-2-3, though.)
posted by WorLord 18 years ago
In "I really CAN'T go home again."
Wow. Wow. Thank you, everyone, for the responses. It's given me a lot to think about. All of you well wishers have really boosted my spirits, and helped us all try to find a little light in a dark situation. The big decision both has, and hasn't, been made yet. That is to say, where we ultimately end up is way up in the air, but we need to start somewhere now, and that now is going to be Austin is we can swing it. This is because of a requirement I hadn't really thought about: half of us are homeowners in New Orleans, and my wife has family in Lake Charles who are at death's doorstep. Proximity is a factor I can't ignore, in those cases, and I don't know how much unfinished business I'm going to have to take care of in Lake Orleans in the next year. So all you Austinites, lookout. This is your official Incoming Cajun warning. As for long term: I lived in SF for about 5.5 years before moving back here in '04 (perhaps not the smartest idea, but hey, you know what they say about hindsight...). I loved it, but missed home, and natural disasters are really a little more real to me now - I'm trying to avoid places that get destroyed and rebuilt on a semi-regular basis. Portland and Seattle sound very good, but I'm still skittish about those for the very same reasons. Canada: Canada is where I've really wanted to be for a long, long time now, but I don't think they'd have me... I lack the degree / 2nd language that would give me enough points to enter the country. I'm bummed about that, but have hope due to the suggestion that it is easier to get into Canada than I'd thought. I'd love nothing more than to end up there in a few years, when all this is settled and I can snag enough money to get up there... I just don't know how. Maybe I'll learn french. I'm rambling now, perhaps I needed the distraction. Again, thank you all for your suggestions - I've saved the thread, so once I have things like a proper Mailing Address and Work in the Morning, and a little leisure, I can mull them all over with the gang and plan for the future. (And they say that the Internet has nothing to do with real life. Ha!) Again, thank you all for being who you are. You really are halping carry us through this thing.
posted by WorLord 19 years ago
Tech Friendly = I'm a PHP / MySQL / C / Perl / Bash programmer and Linux / Windows server tech and IT Administrator. I'd like to keep a job in that field, so "Tech Friendly" means "computer geek work available". ;-) I also would like the place to be lenient on people who smoke grass. Not that, you know, I'd do a thing like that, but I do enjoy the general attitude and mindset of an area that turns a blind eye to those sorts of things.
posted by WorLord 19 years ago
In "More Christian Outreach"
Monkeyfilter: Unflushable.
posted by WorLord 19 years ago
In "Curious George; Rape VS Beat-down"
"You might be right. But, you see, thinking in these terms�where you assume the worst about others" ...you're new to this "internet" thing, aren't you? ;-) "ironically and tellingly, you're condemning." And you were doing so well, until you screwed it up right here. I'm not condemning anything. I'm stating that this is likely how I think things'd turn out if the one asking the question were a man, and why I think they'd turn out that way. We now return you to your unnecessary, but somehow regularly scheduled, jump to conclusions.
posted by WorLord 19 years ago
"I'm not seeing it--how would this be different? Are you both suggesting that if a man asked, we all would be more likely to make rape and physical assault equivilent?" No. If I had to wager a guess? I'd say that the hypothetical man doing the hypothetical asking would be flamed, marginalized, and insulted all to hell and back for daring to even think about relating an idea that possibly comes within ten miles of beginning to believe that rape might not be the absolute worst thing on the face of the earth to anyone of any gender. Because, obstensibly, there would be no way for him to understand, being the proud posessor of a different set of dangly bits. However, this is just my guess. I could well be wrong.
posted by WorLord 19 years ago
I don't know exactly how revalent this is, but: I think this question would be treated a lot differently if a man were asking it. A LOT differently.
posted by WorLord 19 years ago
In "The Day After."
"Wurwilf: It's not okay. I know it's not okay. But I feel it anyway." So do I. And I live here. For low long, remains unknown, though.
posted by WorLord 20 years ago
In "Take your places at the starting gate..."
You know, not too long ago, I would have given a lot to have a MeFi membership, and jumped for joy at the sound of the membership opening up. But, you know… after basking in the wonderfulness that is MoFi, I really don’t think I’ll bother. Loathe as I truly am about offending the dual-member’d MoFiites here, it must be said that MeFi has enough problems, both technical and otherwise, to make me not want to read it any longer, much less join it. And nothing brings out these issues more than being a MonkeyFilter member. The downtime is a big problem. Though I feel a passing stab of pity for all the issues MeFi has had lately, I have to wonder why almost no one is saying how mathowie didn’t see this coming. IIS? + Jrun? + CF?? I mean, I’ll be as nice about it as I can in this post, but isn’t it kind of odd how no really huge, well-backed, multi-user, uptime-dependant sites out there ever seem to use any part of this combination, much less more than one if these componants? Isn’t it even odder that no comments I’ve read on the topic (and I’ve read a lot of them, though not all) seem willing to point this out? The elitism and barely-veiled prejudice of the MeFi users – while generally in the background – seems to be much more prominent these days also. There is a huge – HUGE – thread about how MeFi can improve its situation by somehow trying to guarantee diversity among new members. I’ll say that again, just because it is both scary and ridiculous. There is a large thread’s worth of suggestions about how to make sure that MeFi’s next membership spree can somehow guarantee diversity – racial, religious, you name it – among the new members. The implied statement, I think, is somewhere between “no membership for you unless you can somehow show us that you are entertaining” and “there are too many North American members – therefore, we should do what we can to ensure that any North American memberships fail.” The third issue is that I can’t post this, or a comment like this, to MeFi itself. And in the past, I’ve wanted to comment on so many things, so many times, that reading conversations on MeFi is becoming little more than an exercise in frustration. It is thus that MeFi is purged from the bookmarks today, and this latest promise of MeFi membership will be largely answered with a Yawn by me.
posted by WorLord 20 years ago
(limited to the most recent 20 comments)