September 23, 2005

• "What could possibly go wrong?" Seriously though, good luck with that, and take care.
• I know someone who did this (married an American so he could stay, he was with the gay too), and it all went swimmingly, I believe. Although I can't actually help, just thought a bit of encouragement might go down well.
• Well, let's do the obvious first... Craigslist Dublin? There's already a few sham marriage requests on there, so there's a market. Also, would it be accurate to say that any EU nationality would do? If that is the case, you might want to look further afield than Ireland. With the traditional attitudes and the Catholicism and stuff. Also, Anonymous George is fun.
• There must be lots of Irish people who'd like US citizenship. Why don't you find one who looks vaguely like you and swap passports?
• If two people looking for sham marriages get together...
• I'm confused. You won't pretend to be straight, and the state won't recognize gay marriages. What's left for you to marry? I would think you're best chances to find someone would be at your ex-school, and among your friends. Wasn't there a website, right after the elections, that provided contacts for political asylum marriages? I seem to recall one, the I can't remember what it was called.
• Bloody stupid immigration laws. Good luck to you! Yes, I'm bitter about the subject.
• I think what she's saying is that she won't fool anyone into thinking she's straight -- she wants to be upfront about herself and the reasons for the marriage from the first. Good luck with this, and I wish I had better advice to give.
• Mr. K, I think what anonymonkey means is that they're not going to try to act straight and trick someone into thinking it's a real marriage - she (since it's Simian XX, right? New stuff is complicated, heh) wants someone who'll know it's sham on both parties' sides going in. Not too terribly uncommon. I imagine, actually, it would be best to find a gay person of the opposite sex to marry; little chance that the other party is going to have a change of heart about the status of the relationship, then (which, obviously, would be a huge problem, could lead to having to pay support, or even getting yourself kicked out of the country). (So there's advice if you do go this route - go looking for gay men, definitely your best bet, and more likely to be understanding of the requirements of a sham marriage). I'm surprised marriage is the only option, though. Be very, very careful about this option. Of course, I don't know how Ireland reacts to it, but other countries can take it very seriously. My friend tried to move to the U.S. with her husband, and even though we all knew it was serious (they'd been together for years), since the wedding was only a few months prior, and he had dual citizenship, they denied her entry and made her life hell for a long while. And it was a legit marriage! And she had job contacts! (Of course, she didn't have all the necessary forms, but the gist of it was just being married did NOT equal getting residency at all). The movies don't actually lie here - you will almost certainly be interviewed, have to show proof of your relationship, etc. Which will be an awful lot of lying, easy to slip up, and then you're out, and you might never be able to get back. Also, I was curious about your assertion you'd have to be married for three years, and looked it up - and what I found suggested that the grounds for divorce in Ireland are that you've been separated and lived apart from each other for 4 out of the 5 previous years, much different from 3 years. So that means a *long* committment before you can have a divorce, even if you don't have to be living together. This will tie you up for a long time. Personally, I'd be encouraging your lawyer to find any other means than this. Look very seriously at becoming a student again, and possibly gaining the necessary skills to earn a work permit. If you have the money for a sham marriage offer, try to put that money towards the cheapest student program you can find that qualifies you to stay. Be careful to ensure you're not staying in the country illegally. This could be a big black mark against you if you try to go through official channels later, even the marriage process. I'm sorry to be so doom-and-gloom, but while it's perfectly possible that this scheme could go off perfectly and enable you to stay in Ireland as long as you please, it's equally possible that you could end up in a world of trouble, and lose your opportunity to ever properly settle in the country you seem to love. After all that - good luck.
• I think it's a bad idea, and that you should explore legal ways to remain in the country. Can't afford to go back to the school you were going to? How about a local trade college? How about searching for a job through your network of friends at a company that would sponsor you for a work permit? And as a last resort, I think you should return to the states and build up your immigration points to return. Again via school or a particular job with specialized skills which is in high demand in Ireland. You can find all these things out, and I think it would be better than the risky alternative. Because if you are found out having a "sham" marriage, you may be deported and not allowed to return even to visit. I don't know your situation, but I have a feeling that there are many stones yet unturned, and inconvenience or hassle or just being daunted by the prospect of searching them out has led you to what I think is a dangerous situation. What if you and your "husband" had a falling out? What if he simply continued to extort more money for your silence? What if one of his family and friends does, even after the 3 years are up, for a long time to come? A sham marriage is a needless risk. If you want to stay in Ireland, I say do it in a legal way.
• I would agree with Mr. Knicker's advice, about finding someone among your friends and school chums. Especially since you'd need to stay together for 3 years. I wonder if immigration would monitor the "marital situation" at all ... they never did for me and Mr. Koko, and I've been here 5 years. But that's Canada. I hope some of the advice above has been helpful. Thank you for being the very first AnonyG poster! And for picking meeeee!
• she (since it's Simian XX, right? Not necessarily ... it's only Simian XX because I'm female.
• Holy crap this kicks so much ass! (sorry for your plight though, and unfortunately I have nothing to offer. Good luck though!)
• Go legal. Go home. And then go back.
• Not necessarily ... it's only Simian XX because I'm female. Ah, I see! Thanks for the clarification. That's...a bit confusing, but now that I know, I'll keep it straight. :)
• Come here to Boston, find yourself an illegal Irish immigrant here (no problem, just walk into any Irish pub in the city) and marry them, thus easing immigration problems for both of you.
• Can I create an account "Simian ABC"? Hmmm...
• Immigration Lass says: IANAL, but you don't need to be a lawyer to know that document fraud can get you in big trouble (like time in the slammer trouble) with the US immigration authorities. I can't imagine it's any different with the Irish immigration authorities. Good luck, anonomonkey. I hope you find a way to stay that works for you and doesn't involve a stint in the pokey.
• I think it's a bad idea, and that you should explore legal ways to remain in the country. Go legal. Go home. And then go back. WTF? This is blatantly an exploration of a legal way to remain in the country. This person is trying to get married in an effort to be legal and follow the law. They are working within the system, not outside it. I don't know how you guys got the idea that marriages of convience are for outlaws only, but it's nonsense. livii: I think they meant that to retain citizenship, they must remain married 3 years. I don't think they were talking about a judge wants as grounds for divorce, just what a La Migra official wants.
• WTF? This is blatantly an exploration of a legal way to remain in the country. Mr K, if Anonomonkey were trying to get into the US, what s/he is proposing would not be legal. IANAL, but trust me on this one: it's fraud. Yes, it's legal for a person looking for a green card to marry a US citizen. A sham marriage for the purpose of immigration benefits is nevertheless fraud. It's a bad idea, movies notwithstanding. I really encourage Anonomonkey to check the penalties for marriage fraud in Ireland before marrying to obtain an immigration benefit.
• Mr. K, this is blatantly an exploration of an ILLEGAL way to remain in the country, via fraud. If Anonymonkey fell in love with a citizen and they married, that is legal. But Anonymonkey is seeking a way to specifically PAY someone to enter into a "sham marriage." Smells like immigration fraud to me, and I still think that this person could be setting themselves up not only to risk jail time and a permanent ban on entry, but, if not caught, to extortion for many, many years.
• marriage is a perfectly legal means to this end. I say, save a wad of cash and offer it up. Or as they suggested before, exchange vows in the hopes that you can make an irishman legal in america. and he, you, there. lol
• FRAUD: An intentional perversion of truth for the purpose of inducing another in reliance upon it to part with some valuable thing belonging to him or to surrender a legal right. [...] Anything calculated to decieve, whether by a single act or combination, or by suppression of truth, or suggestion of what is false, whether it be by direct falsehood or innuendo, by speech or silence, word of mouth, or look or gesture. [Black's, Abridged Sixth] [Canadian] Immigration Regulations, 1978, s. 4(3): The family class does not include a spouse who entered into the marriage primarily for the purpose of gaining admission to Canada as a member of the family class and not with the intention of residing permanently with the other spouse. This is fraud. Fraud against the state. They WILL check to see if this marriage is bona fides, or just a marriage of convenience. Immigration officers are much more practiced at detecting fraud than you are at performing it. And yes, of course, the reg I cited was Canadian -- I'm more than certain that Ireland has an equivalent provision, esp. with being the gateway to the EU and all. FRAUD.
• Oh, and what immlass and chimaera just said.
• It's not fraud. Fraud would be making a fake wedding certificate. This anonmonkey isn't asking how to forge documents, and has nowhere implied they want to. You're projecting these things. The anonmonkey wants to get married to a willing person of the opposite sex, not create fake documents that pretend of a nonexistant marriage.
• As far as I know, marriage does not automatically qualify you for citizenship in the EU, although I could be wrong
• [Canadian Criminal Code] s. 292(1) Procuring feigned marriage -- Every person who procures or knowingly aids in procuring a feigned marriage between himself and another person is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years. Again, Canada, not Ireland, Ireland probably more strict given the EU connection. Anonymonkey -- if you want to stay in Ireland, don't do it from inside a cell. Go home, and try it again legally. By posting this anonymously, you know yourself that this isn't above board.
• It's not fraud. In many places it is. I do not know how Ireland handles this, but in the US/UK, a marriage of convenience for the purpose of immigration is fraud.
• Mr. K. IANAL, but I used to work in the field, and I'm telling you a sham marriage for the purpose of immigration benefits is considered fraudulent under US law. Here's a State Department discussion of the dangers of marriage fraud that makes it clear that sham marriages are included. Here is a case where people went to jail for arranging (multiple) fraudulent marriages. I don't know what the Irish laws are, but I would damn well check into them if I were in Anonomonkey's shoes. Even if Anonomonkey didn't end up in jail, the comparable laws in the US would ban him or her from returning to the US EVER. If a comparable provision exists in Irish law, Anonomonkey may not want to take that risk.
• As far as I know, marriage does not automatically qualify you for citizenship in the EU, although I could be wrong If the EU is like Canada, citizenship is not required to live and work there permanently. But to become a landed immigrant, it helps to be married to a citizen (if you don't have desired trade skill).
• That said, I recommend taking immlass's advice.
• Forgery is not required for fraud. Gaining benefit based upon a false assertion or concealment of pertinent information is fraud.
• REPORT ON NULLITY IN MARRIAGE. Ireland, twenty years ago. Of particular interest is the second chapter, which opens:

  The Courts in this country have not been called upon to determine the validity of a marriage that has been entered into for some ulterior purpose, such as to gain immigration or tax privileges, or to legitimate a child. In England, the view has been taken that in the absence of duress, such marriages should be regarded as valid. In most other common law jurisdictions the same view has been favoured but in some civil law jurisdictions these marriages are not valid, unless followed by a substantial specified period of cohabitation. [...] A dictum of Barrington, J., in the recent decision of R.S.J. v J.S.J. would suggest support for the view that marriages for ulterior, or limited, purposes should in at least some cases be regarded as valid. He stated:

  "People have entered into a contract of marriage for all sorts of reasons, and their motives have not always been of the highest. The motive for the marriage may have been policy, convenience, or self-interest. In these circumstacnes it appears to me that one could not say that a marriage is void merely because one party did not love or had not the capacity to love the other."

  Again, this is twenty years old. You need a solicitor. Good luck, anonymous.
• It sounds to me like she understands the legality of the situation and has consulted a lawyer. I have tried every other possible option; and I have even hired a solicitor to pursue things legally. Time is a factor. Looks like she is just looking for web links. Best of luck Anon, you go girl!
• Gaining benefit based upon a false assertion or concealment of pertinent information is fraud. This is exactly why it's not fraud. It's not a false assertion to say you're married when you're married. Right now we have: Anonymous George: The law say I must do X. Can you guys help me do X? Response: Quit trying break the law, Outlaw McCriminal! Obeying the law is really breaking the law! It's nonsense and rubbish. Law at marriage in the military. Half of all military marriages (made up figure) are to gain someone citzenship to the US. The other half (made up figure again) are to gain a pay raise or for housing accommodations. How much must I love someone before I marry them? Give me an exact figure with precision. You can marry people for whatever reason you want. It's your marriage. It's your life. You can marry someone for the stupidest reasons in the world, that's your perogative.
• It's not a false assertion to say you're married when you're married. I don't think that is the issue. The issue is getting married for the sole purpose of immigration. You may disagree with the law, but in the US, the law does have a concept of Immigration Marriage Fraud. I believe that the UK has a similar concept. I don't really know about Ireland, but I suspect that they at least frown upon it. Do you have specific evidence otherwise? I hope our Anonymous monkey gets to stay, but legally or via sham marriage, I suspect it will be expensive, and they really should fully explore the legal ramifications.
• Mr. K., the assertion in question isn't that the marriage exists, it's that the marriage was entered into for the sake of the marriage, and not to obtain a benefit from a third party as a result of the marriage. Yes, you can marry someone for stupid reasons, but if that stupid reason is to get something from a third party that you wouldn't otherwise get, and the entire relationship is based upon that duplicitous purpose, then it's fraud. I AM a lawyer, Mr. K., and in the US, sham marriages entered into for immigration purposes can land you in a heap of trouble. It may well happen frequently, particularly in the military scenarios you describe, but that doesn't mean that there are not serious consequences if you get caught. I'm not an Irish lawyer, but I can't imagine any government being unconcerned about people gaining legal immigration status via a sham marriage. I hope that our anonymous Monkey examines his/her options very carefully. I would also urge tremendous caution on any possible transactions arranged online- there are too many scenarios where the situation could spiral horribly, exponentially downwards.
• IANAL, but have seen enough cheesy flicks with such a premise to know that it's quite a risky business... starting with those 'and what is his/her favorite toothpaste brand?' questions from hostile officials.
• Response: Quit trying break the law, Outlaw McCriminal! Is that some kinda slam on ye ol'Irish? Me thinks you made a terrible hames of that, ya cute hoor you!
• I have a feeling that you're being willfully obtuse, Mr. K. Remember that I included intentionally concealing pertinent information, that being that this marriage would be done purely for immigration purposes. Whether most people or every person who does this gets caught or not isn't relevant: it is illegal to marry solely for the purpose of immigration and Anonymonkey would be doing just that. Where did anyone here chastize this person as being Crimey McCriminal? I think we're trying to look out for her interests by pointing out the risks of undertaking fraud to attain residency.
• Find friends, immigrants possibly, with a thick skin and experience living where you are. Talk to them about your plight, and more likely than not, they will find someone amenable to do that thing. It happens here in the USA all the time. Be mindful, though that the authorities might want to interview/interrogate you both, and the pressure might be too great: I have known of people that cracked and confessed, to all the involved dismay. But go for it, if it look slike the only way out.
• I have a feeling that you're being willfully obtuse, Mr. K. No. Find me one instance where someone was arrested for getting married. The act of marriage is not illegal and not a crime. This is what Anonomous George is posting for help with. Not for help filling out paperwork La Migra, which is where your issues lie with. I disagree with you there, too, but right now you guys are saying the marriage itself is crime, which is bonkers. One of the main points of Anonymous George, to some of us at least, is that someone can ask a question without having judgement passed on them. Yet, in the very first Anonymous George, people start throwing out judgements and accusations. You think the accusations are more candy coated than I do. Doesn't change the fact that it's shitty to do, and the wrong way to start Anonymous George.
• Personally, I don't expect Anonymous George threads to be without judgements ... it's hard to discuss a topic without making judgements. Anonymous George simply removes the poster of the question from being judged directly. That, I feel, is the purpose of this service.
• Mr. K, ask a gay couple how legal marriage is.
• Will this do, Mr. K? Arrested at the Registry office; not sentenced yet, but another couple were already, and given 5 months in prison. You are being willfully obtuse, and it won't help Anonymonkey one bit. The question is not just about getting married. It was specifically for getting married in order to gain citizenship. In every jurisdiction polled here so far, that is indeed a crime, and as the link above shows, can lead to arrest, detention, and for the non-resident party, probably deportation and maybe never being allowed back in. Nobody is passing judgment. I'm sorry, but it would be irresponsible of us to not point out the illegal, and dangerous aspects of Anonymonkey's plan. I'm a lawyer myself, and while this isn't legal advice, I would feel I had failed Anonymonkey if I did not point these aspects out. And frankly, that's part of asking for advice. You don't get to just ask for validation; you might get advice you didn't want to hear. And that's the way it should be. And frankly, everyone here is being very, very nice about it. I haven't seen anyone say "OMG I'm going to report you for immigration fraud!" or "You're a bad person to choose this route!" No, we're all saying - "look, this is a bad idea. It might mean you'll never get to go back to the Ireland you love. Please think very carefully about this." If that's judgmental and accusatory, then so be it, but then obviously we're not allowed to give any advice at all beyond "oh yay good luck!!!!" Which is completely fucking useless. Sorry to go off, but this is intensely frustrating, especially since multiple people with experience have been repeating that marriage for the purpose of gaining immigration benefits is a fraud and even if you don't like that, Mr. K, it is still 100%, incontrovertibly true. And so while I wish our first Anonymonkey all the best of luck, I'm hopeful that they'll try to find another, legal route of staying in Ireland.
• Well-said, livii.
• give any advice at all beyond "oh yay good luck!!!!" Which is completely fucking useless. *rereads own comment, hangs head in useless shame*
• Oops, techsmith, that's not what I meant, but I can see how it came across that way. I meant that if that's the only advice we can give, then Curious George at all isn't useful. But of course if that's the advice you have to give, go ahead and give it, and it can be useful in its own right. :) And thanks, koko. I also agree with you that the anonymous function is to avoid having the person themselves judged, or their name associated with the question. That hits it right on the head.
• well said, livii.