September 07, 2005

• it's worth asking whether our haste to confirm our suspicions by believing the worst prevented us from doing our best... It certainly prevented Bush from doing one thing that could have softened his political ass-kicking: Flying down to the SuperDome and walking around on that crucial first visit to the area. Instead his aides probably convinced him not to go because it wasn't "safe".
• Bush, among the unwashed? Surely you jest. I mean, come on--those people DIDN'T EVEN DONATE TO HIS CAMPAIGN! What can they expect?
• Bush didn't need convincing not to go by any aides, the fucker probly vetoed the idea himself the second it was brought up. Fucker be cowardly. Can't even face Cindy Sheehan let alone a bunch of homeless people, the fuckwad.
• Rumors happen during panics when there is a breakdown in the normal communications and law enforcement infrastructure. Why this can't be anticipated by the government and some sort of backup communications and immediate influx of Nat'l Guard MPs (who do have the legal ability to enforce laws) seems to me to be one of the biggest failures in this disaster.
• Are you trying to imply that the very same media that has been saved by this tragedy has been exagerating and overdramatizing the already horrible situation? That's umpossible!
• What about the cannabalism ? It's gumbo time !!!
• I hadn't heard the rumors about the Astrodome (must stop caling it the 'Dome... there are too many domed stadiums involved!), but I've been feeling suspicious about reports of violence in the city of NOLA for a while now. Why were none of them caught on camera? Why did every report mention them as third-hand evidence? Could this again be fearmongering about a large group of non-white people?
• "Bush, among the unwashed? Surely you jest" TP and Chy - you are giving Wonder-Chimp too much credit. I firmly believe the idea of lowering himself to walk among the masses didn't even enter his mind. Until, of course, his handlers suggested it to him in such a fashion that Dubya thought he came up with the idea of a photo-op himself.
• I hear Bush can't get an orgasm without watching footage of poor people---make that poor BLACK people--stumbling around the Superdome. I also hear he murdered several hobos and ate their brains. Also, he and Cheney have a new game where they stage photo ops with poor people, but then inject them with typhoid, rheumia, and cholera. And those blankets---infected with smallpox. F**kers.
• Yeah I saw the same story on F8X News. It was one of their munching points I think.
• On Boing Boing, they link to a video of a New Orleans musician named Charmaine Neville who states that "Some men came and they were raping our women..." I'm at work so I can't watch the video to see if she elaborates on this.
• From NOLA.com, first hand accounts of a carjacking and a shootout between residents and looters.
• Gee, perhaps you don't see the ones "caught on camera" for the same reason we don't often see rapes caught on camera. They're done in places where people don't take cameras -- like public restrooms. Also, wouldn't someone be more likely to, oh, say, STOP A RAPE than tape it and work the footage? Or failing that, perhaps it's because FEMA doesn't want you to see the dead? The National Guard soldier quoted at the end of this isn't "third-hand." Also from the latter article, it's hard to find out how people died when they have them in a "makeshift morgue" and threaten to injure reporters who want to see how many bodies are inside it. This reporter saw bodies firsthand that were victims of violence. I heard on the police scanner, a couple of days ago, the following lines (and this drove it all home for me and got me on an hour crying jag): "I've got a corpse here...oh god. Oh god. Who did this? Poor guy." THIS IS NOT ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE OR WHITE PEOPLE. This is about the government delaying response to the point where people have been wading around in their own waste for a week. Violence will happen, and denying that is to deny a lot about ourselves. In incredibly high-stress situations, some people turn violent. To say that there ISN'T rape going on would be absolutely ludicrous. New Orleans is a major city that very likely has rapes every day anyhow. To think that violence would come to a halt, rather than be accelerated by a stressful situation in which residents are facing very unpleasant deaths, is to be excruciatingly naive.
• Also, at this point -- to politicize a bit -- I'd say REPUBLICANS are the ones pushing this talking point. They don't want to show how bad it's gotten, so they're saying that really, things aren't so bad after all and that this is just "anecdotal." You know, anecdotal, the same way the FEMA director said the reports of people dying at the Convention Center were "anecdotal."
• It has come down to this. If there's a picture, if there's video, it happened. That's the proof. No pic, no clip, sorry, didn't happen. Won't believe it. Even it there were witness, even if there might be victims. Happened before, will happen again. A single body bag picture strikes harder on the media sensitized public than a thousand words. Frankly, everyday I feel ovewhelmed by reports and speculation on developments (rescue delayed due to vested interests? rescuers behaving in ghastly ways?) and, as a non-USA citizen, can't decide between feeling anger at the lack of public opinion outrage at this cherry on top of the crap cak that the Bush administration has been; or to feel somewhat jaded and shrug it off. Nobody needs riots and political upheaval on the country that, no matter what, exerts so much influence over the entire freakin' world. I'm really tired.
• American friends tell me the US army has portable cell phone towers, and this is how they operate in places that lack cell phone towers such as Iraq.. However, the National Guard apparently isn't issued this equipment. Another reason to think the lack of early federal intervention let an initial mess grow worse when it need not have.
• It has come down to this. If there's a picture, if there's video, it happened. That's the proof. No pic, no clip, sorry, didn't happen. Won't believe it. Even it there were witness, even if there might be victims. Ahem "We don't have any substantiated rapes," New Orleans Police superintendent Edwin Compass said yesterday, according to the Guardian. "We will investigate if the individuals come forward." The British paper further pointed out that, "While many claim they happened, no witnesses, survivors or survivors' relatives have come forward. Nor has the source for the story of the murdered babies, or indeed their bodies, been found. And while the floor of the convention centre toilets were indeed covered in excrement, the Guardian found no corpses. So, obviously for some of these stories we have witnesses, victims and corroborated reports. But for MANY of them we don't have witnesses, victims, corroborated reports, camera footage, video, 1st hand accounts or ANYTHING other than raw rumor mill speculations. So yes, in the absense of these things, I think it wise to say "we have no evidence of it having happened," rather than say that it did. C'mon guys, we all played Telephone as kids, we've all been exposed to, and believed, wild, crazy ass rumors on the internet (Bert and Ernie are dying of AIDS, anyone? How 'bout Steven King tragically passing away?) It's called an urban legend, and it inherently feeds on the repressed fears and beliefs of the listener. I have first hand evidence of it in this case, my mother-in-law was dissuaded from volunteering at the astrodome because "They" were raping volunteers in the bathrooms. Bullshit. "They'd" been there one day and I guarantee you that the first time a volunteer gets raped by the violent New Orleanian thugs we have so graciously and naively given shelter too, it will blasted all over Fox news and Bill O'Reilly will flood the streets of New York with the slaver gushing from his pallid thin lips. The lesson remains the same as the one you learned when you first told someone that Catherine the Great died after fucking a horse, DON'T believe everything you hear, no matter how salacious, scandalous or stereotype confirming it is.
• I probably could have said what I did better. I don't mean to say that no violence has occured. I agree that in stressful (or awful or horrifying) situations, some people do turn violent. Some people are violent just because, so why would they change in the middle of a disaster? What I meant to say was that reports of violence seem overstated and many are unconfirmed, especially at the shelters far from NOLA, such as the Astrodome. Because of this, I think that some of the rescue effort went slower than it needed to (due to people understandably wanting to protect themselves). While I acknowledge that it is hard for the press to check the facts about violent acts in this atmosphere, that's their job. I think that the overstatement of the violence is being used to justify the ill treatment the people of NOLA have received.
• It is not a black thing but a poverty thing? Ok. What percentage of population in (were) black? something like 68%.Of those, a large portion were below the poverty level. Below. Average income: 20 thousand bucks per year, I believe. Who got out of NO? those with cars. Who had cars? Who used to count of public transportation for travelling about? Now if any of this stacks up, it means that most of those stranded were blacks becauswe they were poor. Why were so many within the black community both stranded and poor? Answer: they were black.
• I did read, a first hand report, of someone who had seen a nine year old's throat cut. Can't substantiate because I have been on so many sites, but the observer was a journalist looking into the refrigerators of the (convention center??).
• I'll look harder.
• Well, the reporter didn't |SEE the throat being cut, but saw the body and was told how it happened. Can someone with better skilz than me find this?
• In short, holy hell. It was about the children.
• No, it wasn't. Oops.
• By the way, despite the vitriol in my post, I'm not accusing anyone here of racism. It's more of a "society as a whole" thing. And, forgive me, cynnbad, I'm a little bewildered by your post progression. Did you find this report?
• Tuesday, September 06, 2005 Mayor says Katrina may have claimed more than 10,000 lives Bodies found piled in freezer at Convention Center By Brian Thevenot Staff writer ... are you thinking I pulled this out of my ass, Nick? Arkansas National Guardsman Mikel Brooks stepped through the food service entrance of the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center Monday, flipped on the light at the end of his machine gun, and started pointing out bodies. "Don't step in that blood - it's contaminated," he said. "That one with his arm sticking up in the air, he's an old man." Then he shined the light on the smaller human figure under the white sheet next to the elderly man. "That's a kid," he said. "There's another one in the freezer, a 7-year-old with her throat cut." He moved on, walking quickly through the darkness, pulling his camouflage shirt to his face to screen out the overwhelming odor. "There's an old woman," he said, pointing to a wheelchair covered by a sheet. "I escorted her in myself. And that old man got bludgeoned to death," he said of the body lying on the floor next to the wheelchair. Brooks and several other Guardsmen said they had seen between 30 and 40 more bodies in the Convention Center's freezer. "It's not on, but at least you can shut the door," said fellow Guardsman Phillip Thompson. The scene of rotting bodies inside the Convention Center reflected those in thousands of businesses, schools, homes and shelters across the metropolitan area. The official death count from Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana was 71 as of Monday evening, but that included only those bodies that had been brought to a make-shift morgue in St. Gabriel. That's from nola.com. I'm too incompetent to invent this shit.
• THIS IS NOT ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE OR WHITE PEOPLE o rly
• huh?
• Hey: those Guard guys may mean well, but they got there five days after everything happened. They didn't see shit. They heard about it, maybe. And maybe that's the truth. But from what I saw there, compared to the rumors I heard there, I doubt it.
• And you were there. So that's that.
• ...and you're a butthead.
• Behave, cynnbad.
• ASSUMES THE POSITION
• I'm saying, it's NOT about black people and white people. If you say "the media is making false claims of violence to make black people look like animals," and the claims of violence turn out to be true, you've just said that black people looked like animals. I'm saying that skin color makes shit for difference in stressful situations, and that if you claim that the only reason this behavior is inhuman is that it's MADE UP BY TEH MEDIA, well, you've shot yourself in the foot. There's enough evidence out there that horrific crimes are happening that you're hurting your own case. In stressful times, this is the sort of shit that happens. If you can't come up with a better excuse than "IT DIDN'T HAPPEN THE MEDIA LIES!" then you don't know too fucking much about human beings in crisis.
• OK, I had to adjust my cheap drugstore glasses every five secs. I had to freakin' strain and re-read to to get what you said. I parsed and deconstructed, until I came across the "human beings in crisis" bit, and I finally got it. Took that long. Imagine.
• Oh, too late; did I mention that? Oh, well.
• Well, the reporter didn't |SEE the throat being cut, but saw the body and was told how it happened. Can someone with better skilz than me find this? posted by cynnbad at 02:52AM UTC on September 08, 2005 In short, holy hell. It was about the children. posted by cynnbad at 03:02AM UTC on September 08, 2005 No, it wasn't. Oops. posted by cynnbad at 03:05AM UTC on September 08, 2005 No I don't think you're pulling it out of your ass, cynnbad. I didn't, and still don't understand what this post progression meant.
• I'm saying that skin color makes shit for difference in stressful situations, and that if you claim that the only reason this behavior is inhuman is that it's MADE UP BY TEH MEDIA, well, you've shot yourself in the foot. There's enough evidence out there that horrific crimes are happening that you're hurting your own case. In stressful times, this is the sort of shit that happens. If you can't come up with a better excuse than "IT DIDN'T HAPPEN THE MEDIA LIES!" then you don't know too fucking much about human beings in crisis. No, but in times of little verifiable information you shouldn't go off about every rumour that you hear. Including the ones specifically cited in both the posted article and the Guardian article. The fact is that things get blown out of proportion with little provacation, and that these rumors have lasting, far reaching implications and should be judged according to the facts not your beliefs about what people in crisis might or might not do.
• I heard, about 4 or five days ago, either a reporter or cop say he saw on the streets "bodies riddled with bullets, and a guy with the top of his head shot off". I also heard a doctor out at the airport MASH unit reporting he'd treated a tourist who was grabbed, pulled into an alley, was beat til her jaw broke, and then raped. You could hear the gunfire yourself during live reports from the roof of a police station at night. I doubt the cops were shooting at themselves. This is first hand info, not rumours, not urban legend. I'd say some really awful shit happened, and the telling of it increased the number of victims or the frequency with which these things happened. Was there unsubstantiated information flying around? Well, duh, yeah. That was the only kind of information to be had. While the exaggerated perception of violence may have scared some away, it also speeded others up, so I think the effect is negligible. There's something about this article that strikes me as a little precious; an article talking about the dangers of reporting in an absence of substantiated information while doing precisely that. Nobody at this moment, including those on the ground knows what the fuck exactly happened because it's only days later and the people they need to ask are scattered all over the country at the moment. I don't buy this bullshit either; As we cast about for blame to lay, and lessons to learn for the next catastrophe, it's worth asking whether our haste to confirm our suspicions by believing the worst prevented us from doing our best. An equal case could be made that our slowness in waking up enough to grasp the worse until CNN reporters were breaking down in tears prevented us from doing our best.
• Uh...also; *harrumph*
• Of course we won't be hearing about, or god forbid, actually seeing any of this in the days to come.
• and Nickdanger, don't know what you mean by "thread progression." Sounds like a sewing term. I was just spewing frustration there.
• did someone mention horse-fucking? i got distracted.
• You guys are sick, dripping wirh the slop of what you think mattters anymore. You think this is a joke; you are beond distusting.
• Or I could soften that.
• You mean Catherine didn't die under her horse? But it was in the mini-series! On a more serious note - yes, there has been violence in New Orleans. But the way it's been exageratted is insane. There have been several mefi threads on this - talking about how after a great flood in the late 1800s in Pennsylvania, Hungarians were accused to raping and looting and cutting fingers off dead women for their rings. Again, Gaveston 1900: only this time it was blacks. I see a pattern here. Many people have been talking about the rumours within the Superdome itself - I can totally believe that there were rumours all over the place. It was dark and loud and 25,000 people were there. But I'm waiting for the investigations - how many deaths from violence? At the convention centre there were dead children, but they were dead from heat exhaustion because no one would risk the violence to come help them. This is something that has made me very angry - victims of a natural disaster are being treated like dangerous criminals. And this wouldn't have happened if it was Beverley Hills, or Rosedale.
• jb-- I totally agree; at least I would like to see some first hand evidnence. I know for a fact that we are getting the "FEEL GOOD ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE" things in our Denver papers. Wonderful to see them here, but why now?
• and I'm sure the worst of the disasters have brought out the worst. It always seems about a certain income level.
• It's hard to reconcile the reports that the violence was exaggerated and the current news stories that the body count is going to be unbelievably low with stories like this. Nearly every survivor story I've read mentions hearing gunfire in the city and being terrified. Are the victims exaggerating? Remembering it worse than it was? Trying to get media attention? I'm not saying either way, just wondering what to make of all of it.
• One reason why the death count will likely be lower than the infamous 10,000 figure is that the flooding happened comparatively slowly, giving people time to move onto roofs and higher ground. And sure there was looting, but widespread murder? I kinda doubt it. Most of those people trapped there weren't any different from you or I. If I had a gun and I was marooned in these circumstances, I'm not suddenly going to go on a a rampage. That leaves the tiny percentage of mentally unstable or psychotic folks. They'd be the ones behind the gunfire. They'd do damage but not *a lot* of damage. I'm completely guessing but I'd say the total casualty number will be less than 500.
• sadly, I agree with you, Storeyored.
• As much as the left would like to make it, this will ultimately be a test of wills.
• Storey: I wasn'nt there: U dudn't see it. I need to shut up until I see the real deal.
• but of course nobody will ever see what actually happened.
• Q: . . .The Police Department came close to abandoning the convention center, and giving up on the people there - because, why, because it was so dangerous? A: That's it
• I'd love to listen to it, but I can't.
• An LA Times article on the subject.
• From the above linked article: Journalists and officials who have reviewed the Katrina disaster blamed the inaccurate reporting in large measure on the breakdown of telephone service, which prevented dissemination of accurate reports to those most in need of the information. Race may have also played a factor. The wild rumors filled the vacuum and seemed to gain credence with each retelling — that an infant's body had been found in a trash can, that sharks from Lake Pontchartrain were swimming through the business district, that hundreds of bodies had been stacked in the Superdome basement.
• And, most relevant I think (given the wild fire speed with which this particular story spread:) Follow-up reporting has discredited reports of a 7-year-old being raped and murdered at the Superdome, roving bands of armed gang members attacking the helpless, and dozens of bodies being shoved into a freezer at the Convention Center.
• Salon article "[Mikel] Brooks and several other guardsmen said they had seen between 30 and 40 bodies in the convention center's freezer," Thevenot reported in the Times-Picayune the following day, adding that Brooks told him one of the bodies was a "7-year-old girl with her throat cut." Lt. Col. John Edwards, the commander of Brooks' unit, told Salon he first heard of the Times-Picayune story about two weeks later. "This was news to us," Edwards said of the alleged dozens of bodies in the freezer, which were never found. Only four bodies were discovered inside after the convention center was evacuated, and only one of them was a suspected homicide, according to the Louisiana Department of Health and Hospitals.
• And a follow up from the Times Picayune entitled "Rumors of deaths greatly exaggerated, widely reported attacks false or unsubstantiated.