August 20, 2005

• Maybe. I dunno about Fight Club though. The reasoning behind that choice seems like a real stretch. I would have added My Brilliant Career.
• nice post, peacay, its a pretty good list on the whole...of course thelma & louise represented me just fine ;)
• The inclusion of Fight Club makes me scratch my head not because it's a "guy movie" but because she didn't discuss the female lead at all. And if you think I'm gonna get tangled up in that...
• I agree waraw - that's exactly what I thought when I read it. It was certainly a 'strong' female character role but I'm not completely sure how it ought to judged. Oh hell, I loved the character and really think it had more qualities in terms of representing a quirky loving female than the movie as a whole can be conclusively judged in the way they've deconstructed it in the article. It was the 'iffy' movie for me from the list for that reason. But then again, I'm a boy so I don't know how far my opinion does or should carry. That sort of disclaimer should provide some protection yeah?
• Leia sat in a cage until she was rescued. Come on. I think the unct Supergirl could be in here. In the uncut version, she saves the whole world, not just here boyfriend.
• Star Wars. Alien. Silence of the Lambs. Batman Returns. Jackie Brown. Yes, when I think of real women, I think of carrying guns around, shooting those guns, and killing people. Is that what "getting women right" means? Are the best portayals of "real men" in the cinema done by John Wayne, Bruce Willis, and Arnold Schwarzenegger?
• These aren't real women. Real women are fallible, just like real men.
• Nice list of movies though.
• Good post for discussion....Fight Club must pull it out again, it's got me curious.
• Agreed; good list of films. But I don't see an archetypical portrayal of "women." There is no such thing.
• What, no 8 1/2?
• What, no 9 1/2 (weeks)?
• 9 1/2 Ninjas! On a more serious note, what about 'Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death'?
• I was disappointed that they didn't include Elastigirl from The Incredibles.
• Thinking about it, find the role of women in Chicago far more interesting to contemplate. Think Hollywood generally lets women down in films, especially in straight roles. Why Star Wars? Perfect instance of space opera-- a b-grade western ethos prevails. Princess Leia -- cardboard cutouts of human beings, not well-developed characters, emphais on action. (Believe the serious love interest may have been between Han Solo and Chewbaca, but this relationship they were too chickenshit to explore.) Same cardboard female character as in Treasire of the Lost Ark, snappy repartee going to Nick and Nora Charles in the old Thin Man films. Stereotupes. Nothing fresh here, and the acting vastly inferior to Myrna Loy's.
• Don't women have bigger chests and wider hip areas than men? They do? Really they do? At least some of them.... I reast my case. ......such as it is>
• I love the spill checki! I du I du!
• I du tu. That and a competwent typist would make it all better ... there, there.
• See wot I mean?
• Eh, no Pink Floyd The Wall?
• I thought the list was excellent and agreed with most of the choices. I would have added Carnal Knowledge as it runs the gamut throughout the decades and hits the mark, imo. Lovely & Amazing would also fit, though no one saw it. Maelstrom, also, and Rosetta and The Dreamlife of Angels if foreign films are eligible. Yes, when I think of real women, I think of carrying guns around, shooting those guns, and killing people. Well, there are women who've done those things, no?
• I'm carrying a gun, shooting the gun, and killing people AS WE SPEAK.
• I'm carrying a gun, shooting the gun, and killing people AS WE SPEAK. Wow! And here I am doing nothing but wearing pants. :(
• I also think Tootsie and Mrs. Doubtfire deserved mention.
• flongji: just wearing pants is fine. It's more than I can say about myself. With the guns and the killing and all, it's tough to fit pants it at the moment. You understand.
• Kamus, have you read My Brilliant Career? Much better than the film.
• Eating Raoul!
• >Yes, when I think of real women, I think of carrying guns around, shooting those guns, and killing people. >Well, there are women who've done those things, no? Indeed, they have done those things. A much higher percentage of women have probably had sex with dogs than have shot and killed someone, but I am guessing that not many people would complain that dog-fucking women were underrepresented on the list.
• bernockle: huh?
• I think that this list equates women carrying guns/shooting people with being strong characters. The list claims to be describing movies that "get women right." I don't think that putting a gun in a woman's hand makes her a stronger/better character. I think it makes her more like a dumb Hollywood character. Toting guns and killing people has traditionally been a male role in the movies. As such, there can be the perception that when women get roles or functions in movies that formerly excluded them, we should view it as some sort of progress and that it signifies some sort of strength. I would say that is not necessarily the case. Far less than one percent of women have fired a weapon at someone. Fifty percent of the characters on this list have.
• What, no Lolita?
• On a more serious note, what about 'Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death'? Ah, yes. A movie I have based not just my life on, but my whole moral understanding and world-view.
• Hollywood doesn't knwo how to take the first step in being at the forefront of social change -- what it knows, cares about most profoundly, is making money. What's the take at the ticket office? If it can be demonstrated that people will pay bucks to see a film about an independent and triumphant woman, then backers will spring for a script. Otherwise take it abroad or make it an independent production. Usually such depictations will be limited to a woman's truimphing onstage or in a pursuit of relatively limited scope (Madame Curie in science, Private Benjamen is a farce, Elizabeth I of England is one of the few exceptions and even she is often shown as crossed in love or as in love with England/power trip? etc.). Is part of the difficulty that relatively few women have actually triumphed in the course of history? What it it to be a successful woman, anyway? (And of course, why so often do the heroic women almost alway go flop in the arms of some worthless clown?!?!) Thinking of the recent twistings to the Dorothy envisioned by Baum, or at the Alice envisioned by Carroll oncreen -- Dorothy in plunked in a mashouse, Alice is a victim of Carroll's [alleged] lust for little girls. As if it's too much to believe that a little girl could be clever and spunky and competent enought to come through adversities unpropped by a man? Why is this? What lies at the root of this distorted emphasis? Or is it distorted -- is this how ot is? No one's mentioned the Disney Studio in regard to women's roles or the self-estemm of girls, but I might have more respect for them, I bel;ieve, viewed in this context, than for many of Hollywood's offerings.
• =Carroll onscreen -- Dorothy plunked in a madhouse
• My partner only wants to see movies that feature: at least two women, who talk to each other, about something besides a man. (She derived this axioma from a cartoon by Alison Bechdel: Dykes to Watch Out For) It still surprises me how few movies pass this short list of criteria. Even many movies in this article fail utterly in this respect. Woman are very much misrepresented in movies, even by female directors. Of course movies aren't made by directors, but that's a different topic.
• I think that this list equates women carrying guns/shooting people with being strong characters. Not necessarily. Shooting people doesn't imply strong characterization. E.g. Tomb Raider has a weakly drawn female character, a cartoon.
• ...whereas Alien on the other hand does have a strongly drawn female character (even though there's gun-toting). The list missed a couple of good ones though: How about Ghost World? How about Run Lola Run?
• I think the list was taken only from mainstream Hollywood films, which does limit things but also takes movies that have the widest distribution and so have the widest cultural impact.
• I dunno... I can't take Ripley seriously in *Alien* as a great female character because ALL of the characters in Alien were specifically written asexual. The writers didn't really care which roles were which, just that the crew had to be coed. Really, making the tightass 2nd-in-command a woman wasn't a stretch. (and even less so the whiny, scaredy-cat navigator) It would've been more interesting (in 1977) to make Yaphet Kotto's part female. Now AlienS, that is a feminist movie all over the place. Maybe I'm just a dumb male, but I do think motherhood and feminism can and should go together. And Aliens is pretty much the most action-pacted ode to motherhood and feminine strength ever conceived. And it's also a bit hard to take Star Wars' place seriously once you know that Leia's proficiency in shooting was actually just an accident of the editing that no one really noticed until later. It wasn't intentional until the prequels, and they deliberately made Padme an excellent shot as an in-joke. Another one I'd personally put on that list, btw, is the Wachowski bros' "Bound." But since it's about lesbians, it of course can't be called feminist since otherwise you get man-hating-dyke jokes. (even if it is, fundamentally, a movie about women using their way of thinking to undermine and undo men stuck in a very masculine way of thinking)
• No mention of Rear Window or North by Northwest? Sigh. Both films have strong woman characters...who are falible and don't just hang off the arms of the men in the film. But wasn't it interesting to see how few modern films are there?
• Trying to think what Hollywood biggie I'd seen recently with decent women characters - Cold Mountain sprang to mind. And there's banjo too. Away from Hollywood, Mike Leigh's 'Vera Drake' would have to be one of the best things in English I saw last year, also enjoyed 孔雀 (Peacock) by Gu Changwei which has some well observed female characters.
• Girls Town, yo.
• I dunno... I can't take Ripley seriously in *Alien* as a great female character because ALL of the characters in Alien were specifically written asexual. That's interesting because in a way that's the reason why I *like* Ripley in the movie. The complaint has always been that women in movies are given the screaming/fainting perfect-hair bimbo roles. Whereas in Alien, that is not the case. Not only that, she comes across as a thoughtful, intelligent and three-dimensional protagonist which is rare in action movies. Now AlienS, that is a feminist movie all over the place.... I confess I don't know what a "feminist" movie is. I suspect if someone were to start out with some overt messagey agenda, they'd end up with a bad film. Ironically i think Aliens (though not bad) is not as good a movie as Alien. There's lots of shoot 'em up but it's missing the nuanced characterization of the first one.
• But wasn't it interesting to see how few modern films are there? Adding more fuel to that particular fire: Carole Lombard as Maria Tura in To Be or Not to Be , and in My Man Godfrey . Dynamite comedies from the 40s that are still fresh today. Trying to think of more modern films, it seems we have to venture farther from Hollywood. How about Amelie and Maria, full of Grace
• Wendy Kroy
• On the note of StoryBored's suggestions, what about The Princess And The Warrior?
• well anyone who hasn't seen Kung Fu Hustle yet, I advise, no, I implore!! that you run out to rent it. not only is it wackily, wittily, ridiculously funny and entertaining but it has a terrifying and terrifyingly strong and competent landlady kicking ass all over the place.
• Medusa, right on! That landlady is the full business. Two bruised thumbs up!
• Maybe I'm just a dumb male, but I do think motherhood and feminism can and should go together. And Aliens is pretty much the most action-pacted ode to motherhood and feminine strength ever conceived. Based on this comment, I nominate Sarah Connor in Terminator 2. Saving the world was only incidental in protecting her son. Plus she's even more appropriate given the type of woman she is in the original Terminator. And Medusa just reminded me of Jackie Chan's stepmother, played by Anita Mui, in The Legend of the Drunken Master. One of my favourite female characters ever. Damn, just looked her up on IMDb and she died of cervical cancer recently.
• Yeah. Anita Mui was one of my favourite singer/actress since forever. I miss her. Chinese films, especially martial arts films, have surprisingly strong female roles. Not just in the kick-ass way, but stubborn, headstrong, unbending. Hero, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and several of the Jet Li movies (non-Hollywood, ones of course), had strong female characters, usually the mothers. Check out Jet Li's Fang Shi Yu movies (I think there were two or three), who starred this formidable actress as the lead character's kooky mom.
• I'm going to have to find a way to see all these kung-fu movies; with the Chinese population being what it is in NZ I should be able to find them somewhere in my neighbourhood. (Of course, without subtitles I'm adrift in a sea of duh.)
• Alnedra - The Fang Shi Yu movies are fantastic, esp. the gender bendy parts. But as far as I know, they are sold by the name 'Fong Sai Yuk' in the U.S. Although, I may be misremembering - it's been a while since I ordered mine (which you can borrow if you like, tracicle - I have the first two).
• yentrouc - Yes, they are! Sorry about that. They're Hong Kong movies, so Fong Sai Yuk is Cantonese, whereas I was thinking in Mandarin, as the movies all get dubbed into Mandarin in Singapore. Apologies!
• James Cameron (who did Aliens and Terminator 2) does pretty well by his female characters. (He also produces a lot of Kathryn Bigelow's movies (she's his ex-wife), who is often called a "feminist" filmmaker, whatever that means) Cameron's girl characters in Titanic are debatable, but he's still trying.
• At the risk of un-feminizing the thread, Kathryn Bigelow is also seriously hot. And strong! And smart! Seriously, she made my favorite modern vampire movie!
• Monkeyfilter: Adrift in a Sea of Duh.
• Nany of these recently-mentioned films are not Hollywood productions. Has there been a decline in recent decades in Hollywood films of strong/competent women characters? And if so, what lies behind this?
• Alnedra & Yentruoc, on the side-thread of kung-fu movies, i've heard that Michelle Yeo made some great films early on in her career, but I haven't seen any of them. Any recommendations there?
• Bees, maybe we're not looking hard enough. Some candidates for strong/competent women in recent Hollywood films: Million Dollar Baby The Hours Chicago? (I haven't seen it, but heard it was good)
• At the risk of un-feminizing the thread, Kathryn Bigelow is also seriously hot. Strange Days and Point Break? She has my vote.
• Chicago is a good dilm, StoryBored, some very fine performances in it. But the women characters are shown to be victims of the city, the legal system, and the sensation-seeking media (along with many of the men). Sheer luck both protagonists survive, really. Re The Hours -- Virginia Woolf commits suicide at the film's beginning, so I can't credit her character as being strong nor terribly competent. Haven't seen Million Dollar Baby, alas, though from the reviews one would think it might be a contender.
• =film
• Mmm, ok, in terms of victimhood, Strange Days and Point Break do not recommend themselves. But then uber-heroines are really not my cup of tea. Ringwraith: "No MAN can slay me!" Me: Uh. I would like to see a distinction between strong and audience-pandering.
• Well I didn't think this was about 'strong' women per se. I think the article's author should probably have used the expression: 'do these films portray authentic women' rather than 'do they get women right'. Authentic meaning multidimensional rather than just the 1 or 2 dimensions stemming from say sex appeal that has been the motivation for aeons. ie. tokenism
• On that note peacay, watched 'The Long Riders' last night which had several well-rounded (as it were) female characters, even if they were essentially adjuncts to the male members of the James and Younger families, or a whore like Belle Starr - "but at least I ain't a cheap one".
• I actually think Strange Days is pretty darn feminist (even if Juliette Lewis is so... icky... in it.) I think Bigelow wrote and directed it as a meditation on Laura Mulvey's Visual Pleasure in Narrative Cinema. In the film, women (and men) are literally made victims of the male gaze -- in fact, the male gaze is made into an addictive drug, and part of the hero's quest in the movie is to wean himself off of this gaze. Only then does he get to fall into the arms of Angela Basset (who rocks, and who totally should have played Storm in the X-Men movies, but that's another argument for another day :) )
• From my distant memory of seeing Strange Days I think I very much agree with you meredithea that it's a feminist film. One (well: I) doesn't walk out of the cinema without a feeling of uneasiness. And a great part of that is the twisted and depraved way in which woman are regarded by [some] men. Tom Sizemore is one sick fuck in that (and others will no doubt suggest it kind of followed him into his life). I don't remember the chicks enough to comment on their depth/authenticity. It was one helluva movie - I'll never forget it and as it's fading from my frontal lobes it may be time to have another watch.
• "There is a sense in which this argument, important as it is for analysing the existing state of things, hinders the possibility of change and remains caught ultimately within its own dualistic terms. The polarisation allows only an 'either/or'. As the two terms (masculine/feminine, voyeuristic/exhibitionist, active/passive) remain dependent on each other for their meaning, their only possible movement is into introversion. They cannot be shifted easily into a new phase or new significance. There can be no space in between or space outside such a pairing." -- Mulvey, "Changes" (1983) in Visual and Other Pleasures (1989), London: The Macmillan Press Ltd., p. 162)