August 19, 2005

• I was disappointed when I saw there were more words after 'how to save kids from math.'
• I'm an avowed mathphobe. I could read before I could count to ten, and it never really got better from there.
• I went to Math on Thunday...
• I think the reality is somewhere in the middle, as one might expect. I think math could be taught to many more students than it is now, and there are plenty of bad math teachers to go around, but there's no reason to believe that everyone can learn math well. Just going from the principle that you can damage your brain in such a way as to make doing math (or anything else) impossible, and working up to the idea that there's likely a continuum of skills on this range, I feel certain that some people will do significantly better at math, to the point that some people just wouldn't be able to do math well at all. However, I am also quite convinced that we could raise the average math ability of students significantly with some better teaching methods.
• I was an English major and a math minor and everyone thinks that is weird. I have no idea why. I don't see much difference between them, myself. In teaching math, I found most kids get caught up in the "why?" and really, I never worried about "why" I just knew that it worked and followed the steps. That's probably one, of many reasons, why I don't teach high school any more...
• Why?
• I did very well in math until grade 12, jccalhoun, when I could no longer understand why certain equations worked. Understanding why was a huge boon before that, because I could readily apply the understanding to math problems I had never seen before, but the rote memorization killed me.
• Middle school: Algebra, grade = F (this teacher was 100% loon. She often spoke of imaginary pumpkins flying around the classroom). High School: Geometry, grade = D (this teacher always wore bright red ponchos, and seemed more interested in talking about margaritas on Mexican beaches than answering questions when I needed it most). Trigonometry, grade = C (This teacher was dreadfully miserable. She spoke in monotone with no emotion - perhaps it had something to do with the bruises on her arms?). Algebra II, grade = C (This teacher was fairly reasonable, but liked to smack you on the backside of your head if you provided a wrong answer. Also, she liked calling some students "white cracker!"). College: Algebra = C (She was a bit odd! She often spoke of her affection for math and numbers, "I love math so much! When I drive home at night, I look for patterns in license plate numbers, prime numbers, strange equations..."). Calculus = A (Finally, I approached the dreaded Calculus. The professor was a gem. He was from Russia, and hardly anyone could understand a word he was saying. But he was bright, and loved to stimulate his pupils. He paid attention. He answered all questions. He was a professor that earned my respect instead of demanding it).
• smt, that Algebra II teacher sounds a lot like a high school Physical Science teacher I had in Memphis.
• I always loved geometry, because it had a practical application and a logical progression. I struggled with algebra and trig, even though I could memorize the formulas and execute the calculations. The problem for me was actually using the math in a meaningful way. So, percentages, measurements, and conversions I can do in my head; but my eyes glaze over at the mere thought of statistics or other complicated stuff that I don't use in my life. But I love me some proofs.
• Don't think I ever was a devoted math person, but always ended up in the 99th percentile adter about age eleven or twelve when I learned to follow this simple rule: The first answer that pops into my head is probably right. But if I try to reason through it step by step I will just make a hash of it. Almost always works, anyway.
• I blame adults. Personally, I never had any problems with mathematics as a child, but almost all of the adults whom I met outside of my home and school, or those whom I heard speak on the television or radio, whenever they discussed the topic, did so in extremely negative terms. "Oh, I hated maths at school." "I was terrible at maths." Innumeracy perversely seems to be a badge of pride for many people. This untrue, yet deeply ingrained, cultural notion that mathematics is hard, boring, and unnecessary does nothing to encourage children.
• Any time I even brought up the subject of math I was put in a bad and beaten with reeds.
• I've always had a love for conceptual math, because it's just so damn cool. A system which provides an elegant and functional backbone to just about everything is impossible to dismiss as boring. Despite my interest and best efforts, I've never been able to sit down and do math. All of my math classes, high school and college, I've bombed on practical application. Economics have always been A's, and Physics have always been B-'s. While I admire the ideals of the program, and it's optimism, similar efforts never worked for me.
• I had the exact same grade 12 breakdown, Rorschach, though it worked differently for me - all of a sudden, the teacher wanted us to link together concepts and figure out the why and wherefore of the math. I'd been getting by so far (with quite excellent marks, actually) by memorizing and then brain dumping after the term. Faced with actually having to understand math? I scraped a 65% by the skin of my teeth and never took actual math again. I find these days that I actually have little to no math skills at all, beyond being able to count or some of the times tables; I can do a bit better if I have a pencil and paper. I like the term math-illiterate; I often call my problems innumeracy, and I'm positive it's a problem akin to illiteracy for some folk, myself included. (I've also become so phobic that I'm not sure I could overcome it even if I wanted to, though). But I do find math very interesting - I took a philosophy of math course once, that was cool, though it gave me cold sweats - and so I'm intrigued by this post, especially since I want to watch out when I have kids. My husband's a math star, but so was my dad, so obviously our kids could turn out to be more like me.
• They seem to be teaching math differently these days. Our school district is using a program called "Everyday Math." It's approach is to build on developing math skills and connect the various processes, rather than just flinging concepts at the kids. So far, the children are responding well.
• If you're one of those people who just won't get math (no way, no how), you might have a learning disability. What is a learning disability? It basically boils down to being really, really, just plain constitutionally bad at something. Here's the great part, though: for those of you in the States, you are covered under the ADA (Americans with Disability Acts). If you go to a counselor/therapist who specializes in learning disabilities, you can pay a nominal sum to go through a round of exhaustive tests. If these tests prove that you have a learning disability (which you probably know already, since you are much worse at math than everyone else around you), JACKPOT! The details vary, but having those test results will make your life in higher education a LOT easier. You may get extra time to finish tests. You're entitled to tutoring on the side. Some courses will allow you to use a calculator in situations where they are forbidden for other students. Me personally, based on my test results, the University of Washington excused me from all upper-level math classes. Fair or not, this allowed me to graduate with a degree in English. I'm here to tell you, I would not have made it through college if I'd had to pass math classes like everyone else.
• The math component of the GRE was BRUTAL. I mean, I knew it would be tough, but there were questions that I did not recognize as questions. I didn't know how to read them. I kept thinking I should be trying to spot Thoth and Set and the gang. Of course, the LSAT had no math component, so here I am...
• We could always try the MTV way to make math more interesting - make it sexy! I know just the girl for the job. and livii - I had the same problem. I excelled in math through high school because I'm great at memorization. Then I found that college math was nothing but proofs, which killed me. I ended up skipping all of college math except for one course taught out of the psychology department.
• Rorschach: I took the computer version of the GRE, where if you answer correctly the next question gets harder, and if you answer incorretly, the question gets easier. When the math section started asking me basic arithmatic questions, I knew I wasn't doing very well! While I got perfect scores on the other two sections, I didn't even break 500 on the math.
• When I tutor math, I immediately start out by explaining that math isn't hard, its just that math people make it seem hard so that way they look smart. That math people do stuff thats so simple that anyone could do it, so they make it sound hard to make it sound like they're doing something special and magic. This explanation generally works on mathpobes, because of their resentments towards math-types. As long as their comfortable with it, they pick it up. I also try to manipulate them into correcting me. This is a huge confidence booster.
• I had an awesome maths teacher in Year 10 (High school). He was terrifying. He could throw a piece of chalk at you from across the room if you were talking and always manage to hit the desk. He was an old school Master and had been at the school for decades. Even though we spent class on the edge of our seats, boy did we learn. Most of my class were in the top level of the exam that year even though we weren't the top class. I think though more than the fear of displeasing him we picked up on his passion for working out maths problems. And when you did well he was so excited and pleased. He somehow encouraged confidence in you to become invincible in the face of a tricky problem. Also though you always did your homework. The humilation of having to stand up in class if you didn't and be subjected to his glare of disbelief that you didn't do it was too much. He retired the year after. Never have I seen so many tears at a teacher's leaving assembly. He was a legend.
• math people make it seem hard so that way they look smart. ... so they make it sound hard to make it sound like they're doing something special and magic. I also try to manipulate them into correcting me. Holy crap I'd totally hate you IRL. I'm just saying.
• I did fine at math in elementary school since it all hung off the rote learning of addition and times tables that we spent hours practicing in the second grade. Subtraction and division were just those, backwards. Then, in the 7th grade, they double crossed me by presenting pints, quarts, feet, inches, and the like. I got the idea, but it all seemed so...domestic. Algebra I was pretty easy, and geometry was fun. in spite of a lousy teacher, since it was so visual. Maybe I should have taken Algebra 2 in high school, because it was pretty hard to get into after a couple of years with no math when I needed to take it in college. When quadratic equations came up, I couldn't figure out why I would care. I passed the course, but it's all a blur. Twenty five years later, I had to take a business calculus course. The dweeb who taught it gave us an algebra test which I flunked. I talked to him about my chances of passing, and he said there were none, which pissed me off, so I stayed. I spent hours doing each homework assignment since I could only remember some Algebra I processes. He gave a take-home test for one midterm, which took me 8 hours to complete, but I got it right. And, I found that calculus was as visual as geometry, in its way, and I really loved it. The curves would lay themselves out in my mind. So, I completely aced the final, and had done A level work on the other tests, but he chose to count the algebra test from the first day,with equal weight, so I got a B+ in the course. It didn't impact my overall grade average, but, I learned what I had to in spite of him. And my pleasure in the content had nothing to do with him. And, in spite of my ire at his method, I still am glad I found something I loved. I feel that I won. But, children aren't able to get to that spot, as far as I can tell, without good teachers. My nephew, who had volunteered to work on math workbooks outside of class when he was in the third grade, got a 4th grade teacher who set him back. I sat in on the class, and found that she gave assingments rather than teaching, so the students had to teach themselves. She tried to explain a math problem while I was there, but had to rely on notes, and those weren't right. And, only one of my nieces/nephews knows her times tables. The others struggle to keep up. And, the one who can do elemetary math is having a horrible time with geometry. Kern County, California, where I live, has yet to make a respectible showing in achievement testing. Part of it is that we have a huge hispanic population who come to school with little or no English and don't get enough help to catch up. But I suspect part of it is that teachers are focusing on testing rather than teaching.
• Why does anybody need to pass maths to get a degree in English?
• I took the computer version of the GRE, where if you answer correctly the next question gets harder, and if you answer incorretly, the question gets easier. As did I, as did I. Kind of makes the #1 rule of test-taking irrelevant, doesn't it? (do the easy questions first...) That's a cute story, though. Hope it didn't do much damage to your career.
• As I said, I was an English major and math minor and yet, I cannot spell and I am terrible at basic arithmatic. When playing board games, it takes me longer than most people to add up the dice. I almost always count on my fingers and when alphabetizing, I always sing the alphabet song to myself.
• Wow, lots of interesting comments. [The] untrue, yet deeply ingrained, cultural notion that mathematics is hard, boring, and unnecessary does nothing to encourage children. I agree. The other thing that is harmful is the idea that either you are a "maths person" or you are not. I feel this is like saying either you are a "speech person" or you are not. Unless there's severe developmental issues, a child should be able to excel at math just as they are able to learn to speak. This reminds me of a similar situation in learning music as a child. Many are branded early on as "non-musical" and later as adults they claim to be "tone-deaf". But the actual number of people who are really tone-deaf is miniscule. In both cases, whole areas of human knowledge, beauty and enjoyment have been walled out and labelled verboten for these kids by a teaching system that's infatuated with labelling.
• When I tutor math, I immediately start out by explaining that math isn't hard, its just that math people make it seem hard so that way they look smart. That math people do stuff thats so simple that anyone could do it... More power to ye, Mr. Knick.!
• My husband's a math star, but so was my dad, so obviously our kids could turn out to be more like me . Livii, (and Rorshach) your story reminds me of two friends i had in high school. They did ok in math in the earlier grades but were "uneasy" and they avoided the higher level math courses. But the thing is they eventually went on to become highly successful law grads. But isn't the creativity or imagination required to do math exactly the same as that needed to be a successful lawyer? There is no math-specific module in the brain. What I think blocked my friends was the anxiety loop (plus not having access to good teachers. ) You can't be creative and imaginative when you're working under an anxiety cloud. And it rapidly becomes a negative cycle that feeds on itself. What makes things worse for math students in particular is that math curricula is cumulative. Once you fall off the track, it's tough to get back on.
• Rorshach: We shall see if this hurt my career :) I only got funding at one of the grad schools I wanted, which has a somewhat lower profile than the other schools (for a humanities degree. I was told that schools pay attention to verbal and math and ignore the analytical? Why? Why is my math score a better indiation of my future success than the analytical?). The school I attended turned out to be just right for me. This may or may not hurt my chances of getting a job... we'll just have to see.
• My mental maths has got so much stoopider over the last few years. I find myself standing in front of beer stands in the supermarket trying to work out if this crate or this crate works out as better value, for like five minutes. I dropped maths as soon as I got my A* at GCSE. Back then I was bright, if uninterested, with maths, but since then it's all gone far, far downhill.
• i've had a chequered history with maths, until i realized it's not really hard. from age 4-11, i was around top of the class for everything math-related. from 12-16, i was in trouble constantly with my understanding and with the personality of my maths teacher. from 17->, i'm cool with the numbrizzles. no problems, really, even with advanced stuff i was wary of in school because of my clash with a teacher. but i'm still not a "maths" person, and i don't really think there's such thing.
• Same here, roryk. Up until around age 13 I was in advanced maths classes, top of the class in the non-advanced classes, then I had a maths teacher who thought that if you didn't follow her methods exactly (but still got the correct end result) then you were wrong. I went from an A to a C and didn't learn until much later that I'd been fine all along. By then I'd appointed myself "not a maths person" and I was 17 when I seriously gave it another go. Now I've forgotten most of the more complex stuff I learned, most likely because I haven't had a chance to apply it.
• Absolutely no learning advantage like that given by a home where learning is effortless as breathing and fun -- tons of books, gadgets and toys, pets, puzzles, etc. Truly, can't credit any of my schools or teachers -- were far too many of 'em for any one to have much effect. Which is the best to be said for 'em. We moved often and schools got redistricted etc -- attended 13 different schools in three different countries by the time I was 16, and I'm sure, if not for the continuity provided by our parents and family, my siblings and I would have turned out disastrously. Realize my upbringing is atypical -- but it was so varied I developed strong opinions early on. Recall school for most part as a sustained and unavoidable boredom. Skipping grades was not in vogue many places when I was young, but thank heavens they let me do it a couple of times anyway. Otherwise, the experience almost turned me off education altogether -- until I was finally given some choice in the matter, in college.
• But isn't the creativity or imagination required to do math exactly the same as that needed to be a successful lawyer? Interestingly, law gets put in the "creative" category of career aptitude/interest tests, rather than, say, investigative. For much of lower level math, I'd have to opine that not much creativity is involved. (and the analytical a far better indicator for law, in any case) for a humanities degree Which one? Managed to snag 99th percentile on the psych subject test and still didn't get in (to one of three clinical programs... ok, I was stupid). I think I was cursed by one bad (sealed) letter of reference...
• My brother has a PhD in maths. So instead of doing it I just ask him.
• My degree is in American studies, so it usually doesn't need any math at all. A friend of mine in the program is thinking of working with cultural conceptions of time, including physics and philosophy and a bunch of other heavy stuff. She needs math, but not me!
• I have always stood in awe of anyone who could do more than basic addition and subtraction. While I love and admire the more abstract stuff, it just does not seem to sink in with me. I can follow an explaination or a proof if you speak slowly and use extreme mouth movements, but get lost in trying to recite back to you what you just said. That statement made, I will say that as an English major, I took an experimental honors level "Math Phobe" class, and it made a fantastic difference. There were a lot of "whys" instead of "hows", attacking a problem from different angles, and plenty of encouragement to the effect that we really could understand this stuff. I felt like my math skills doubled in that course. Sad to say, first time I was faced with a real world math problem after the class, where I had no cheering section and encouragement, and had forgotten al the different ways to outline problems, I was back to being a Math Ditz. A lot of being good in math is self-confidence and practicing the different ways to look at a problem.
• I had a maths teacher who thought that if you didn't follow her methods exactly (but still got the correct end result) then you were wrong. Argh! Bad teacher! I can think of several bad teacher categories: 1. Do it like this and only like this( Tracicle's teacher). Result: Kills student creativity. 2. The answer is all that matters. Result: overemphasis on final result as opposed to how to get there. 3. Labeller. Separates students into "math types" and "non math types". Makes slower students feel stupid and good students insecure. Result: Disaster.
• A lot of being good in math is self-confidence and practicing the different ways to look at a problem. That's all of it! I'm convinced that anyone who writes well (e.g. all of the monkeys who've posted on this thread), has what it takes to become kick-ass kungfu math killers!
• MonkeyFilter: Kick-ass kungfu math killers Not.
• I had a maths teacher who thought that if you didn't follow her methods exactly (but still got the correct end result) then you were wrong. Argh! Bad teacher! Not neccessarily. I've had plenny students get the right answer using a completely wrong method, that luckily happened to get the right answer for the problem, but wouldn't work otherwise. Example: Reduce 16/64. Well, both top and bottom have a 6, so I'll just cross those out. That leaves me with a 1 on top, and a 4 on bottom. Is 1/4 correct? Well, yeah that's correct, but you did it completely wrong. But if it works, what's wrong with me doing it? You just want everything done your way! No, it happened to work this time, but will almost always fail every other time. You just got lucky. I have seen instructors that want things done a specific way, but I've seen more often students that don't realize that their method isn't actually a method at all. And often when the instructor is adamant about using a specific method that seems too complex, it's because they're preparing you to use that method on much more complex problems, where your method becomes useless, even though it's useful on simple problems. I'm not saying that this instructor of tracicle's was doing this. I'm just pointing out that in generally, it's not inherently bad when an instructor wants you to learn and use a new method than yours. There's plenny other reasons that have nothing to do with ego or blind determination.
• Good point Mr. K. This reminds me of the Abbott & Costello movie "In the Navy" where Abbott "proves" that 7 times 13 is 28. In three different ways!
• Let me just say this: Math is the intellectual hell on earth that is true evil. All math is complete shite, don't EVEN bring that "how much per beer if the case is X" stuff over here. With truly rare exception, all of my math classes were pure hell divided by unending boredom. Math suck-diddly-ucks so friggin' hard I can barely tolerate seeing numbers in print. AAAarrrgghh! yeah, maybe that whole math 'education' thing didn't go too well *towels off*
• Petebest's head is about to explode: 5, 4, 4 3/4, 3, 3 6/18, 2, 1, 1/42, 0 Pop-off!
• Petebest, ye have been cursed by a hell-spawned math teacher. To remove this curse, ye need to mix two pounds of Pythagoras with a quart of rum. Now ye need to drink it at a rate such that ye would empty it half as quick as B who drinks 30% faster than C but takes gulps that are smaller by a factor q depending on how much of the mix remains at time t. QED.
• *narrows eyes, grips blaster*
• *in louder voice* ...but then C seeing how B is drinking faster at a rate m, doubles his own imbibing. Also he embarks on trajectory T at increasing velocity, w, such that the relativistic effect R prime, makes the rate of B's drinking appears to slow down with respect to his own frame of reference..
• Hitssa good think I drugnk too mucht' care! *fires randomly - Game-ly even*
• *blaster fire richochets randomly around the room* YEAGGGH! ...although in the act of dodging, I can't help but marvel how perfectly geometric the richocet patterns are. The angle of incidence of each plasma round equals the angle of reflection. The richochets continue until the energy of each round is dissipated, perhaps through a linear decay function, the coefficient of which could be determined through an interpolative method...
• Is that some of that there math stuff again, StoryBored? /suspicious squint
• *kneels down behind StoryBored, motions to GramMa to push him over*
• ...of course the accuracy of said interpolative method would depend on the granularity of the step interval chosen for sampling and of course the initial supposition that it's linear decay rather than exponential might not be fully supported by... *falls over backwards, hits head on floor* YEAGGH! *klunk* ....Hey that's nice pattern I see on the ceiling... It's a ducky or maybe a little mousie.
• Oh, StoryBored. I'm so sorry. Quick, tell me how many fingers I'm holding up.
• If you're gesturing to Math, then it's just the one.
• My last moments on earth and all i see is the one finger... I see my mathematical life passing before my very eyes. To think I should never see an equals sign ever again...snif
• WAIT, StoryBored! That was the OK sign I was holding up. You're supposed to look through the hole and think of halos and lights and the sum total of all goodness. Dang, we've lost him. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! *weeps
• I'm in a tunnel (with a parabolic degree of curvature of 1.7)....I'm walking towards the bright light...I'm floating...goodbye Bluey...snif...I never got to write you a poem about horses... Wait a second. I'm standing upright. What's this? *nudges Petebest with foot*
• storybored: =======. Don't give up, man! There are plenty of equals signs out there, we'll help you find them. Breath!
• Oh, man, look at his asymptote. Might have reached his limit. I don't know....
• Stand back. Let's get a set of brackets on this man. [ ] Clear! [*] Clear! [*] Whew! Looks like the subset of StoryBored is positive for all values of StoryBored. He's gonna make it, guys!
• Yay! I's all better! I wuv all monkeys! To celebrate, I must now burst out in song: "I'm a little teapot, short and stout!..." where's everyone going?