Oh, bobbies, bobbies, I had such faith in you. How the hell did this happen.
My heartfelt condolences go to the family of de Menezes. The poor boy.
What did he know? He was an electrician, wasn't he? Who was he contracted to on the day before the bombings? What about that 'electrical disturbance' which was some kind of bullshit story the cops put out for something like 40 minutes, while Netanyahu was warned not to leave his hotel room before the bombs even went up? Did this guy see something he shouldn't have or something? This fucking stinks all to high heaven.
And Tony cuntsuckin Blair won't open an inquiry, nor are there any CCTV images available.. funny that, aint it?
Actually, a CCTV image was leaked along with the report. It's the first picture there. There's an enormous picture of it on the front of today's Guardian.
This just gets worse. I'm afraid it also weakens my confidence in the ability of the police to deal with a real threat effectively. Would they be relieving themselves or chasing the wrong man at the crucial moment?
The IPCC statement.
I was trying to recall if the police had directly been the source of the misinformation about Mr Menezes behaviour prior to his killing, or whether it came from media reports of eyewitness statements and the like.
Certainly, at a press conference at the time, Ian Blair was saying:
"This death, like all deaths related to police operations, is obviously a matter of deep regret. Nevertheless the man who was shot was under police observation because he had emerged from a house that was itself under observation because it was linked to the investigation of yesterday's incidents.
He was then followed by surveillance officers to the station. His clothing and his behaviour at the station added to their suspicions."
That's not quite running and padded coats but obviously supports the version where the dead man brought this on himself.
Anyone have any clearer quotes of the police making specific statements about Mr Menezes' actions?
Before:
The liberals over at Eschaton seem to be frothing at the mouth over the slightest apologies for this killing. I usually agree with most of what is posted there, but in this case I suppose I am a conservative. If you ask me, running around like this fellow on the tube mere days after horrendous bomb attacks is a very stupid thing to do. If the shooting occurred at any other time, I would be up in arms about it. I expect the cops to be a little overzealous after buses and shit get blown up.
After:
What did he know? He was an electrician, wasn't he? Who was he contracted to on the day before the bombings? What about that 'electrical disturbance' which was some kind of bullshit story the cops put out for something like 40 minutes, while Netanyahu was warned not to leave his hotel room before the bombs even went up? Did this guy see something he shouldn't have or something? This fucking stinks all to high heaven.
Ladies and Gentlemen, it's our exclusive 14-day program that makes Liberalax the only milkshake-based slimming formula that can turn you from media-fellating conservative into hippie conspiracy junkie painlessly and at a surprisingly low cost. But don't take my word for it: just send us your credit card details, and start sucking down Liberalax: the world's favourite brain tonic and antacid health-drink.
What a fuckin' mess!
I'm still confused about the UK police having guns. Everything else is no suprise.
Shut the fuck up you bastard. I didn't know they fuckin EXECUTED him. Fuck you quidnunc. Mefi not too good enough for ya to come back to stick it to old cheyney, huh? Hey, I don't wanna think of the pommy cops as fascists, but I guess they are, right? And you, being such a knowing worldly man, knew that all along? Asshole.
And let me say again, FUCK YOU.
Most UK police aren't routinely armed.
There are armed response units: small armed teams in cars who respond where necessary.
There is also a specialist unit called SO19 who partly train other officers, partly act as a kind of SWAT team. They've been accused of being too trigger-happy in the past after shooting innocent people.
Official info here.
And let me say again, FUCK YOU
My dear friend, you are taking a gentle ribbing by someone who likes you very much as some kind of personal attack. I assure you that it is no such thing, and I am very sad that our fun-lovin' playing around has descended into this. I apologise unreservedly if I've offended you with my poor comment, and I hope that you'll forgive me - as I've never considered you the kind of person who couldn't take a joke. What do you say?
Kiss and make up? Please?
*puppy dog eyes*
In fact it's your unwavering ability to poke fun at everything, to recognise the fragile absurdity inherent in all things, and to laugh without malice at tiny human failings (both yours and especially mine) that makes you such a well-loved interlocutor here - especially by me. I'd be sad if you thought that I was attacking you with bile when I only meant to tickle with the feather of friendship.
Ha! You can kiss the assistant mod job goodbye now, Quiddy.
Ian Blair certainly made a statement in which he said that the police had challenged de Menezes, and that he'd then run away. I think Sir Ian might not be long for his job.
That said, it should be remembered that most of the accounts that placed de Menezes as running away were not official police accounts, but eyewitness statements - mistaking a police officer who jumped the barriers for de Menezes. In fact, other than a few of Ian Blair's statements, there was basically no official account. Not that the Met were in a hurry to correct those mistakes, of course...
The astonishing (and horrifying) thing about this is the extent of the fuckup. The sensible assumption throughout this was that there were one or two key mistakes - most likely the incompetent surveillance that led to de Menezes being followed in the first place, perhaps a breakdown of communication between those officers on the ground and their superior officers, and possibly a failure to properly identify themselves when challenging de Menezes. That it looks increasingly likely that the police didn't do a single thing right is frankly mind-boggling. The poor man didn't even have a fucking table-leg on him.
Cryhen is on the piss. Proceed, Quidnun.
Tis all fucked up. I admit at the time I was in the 'well he ran, so shoot the fucker' camp, but I also said I'd take it back if I was wrong. I think I've already done that in t'other thread.
But just because I can...
*takes deep breath*
FUCK YOU QUIDDY, COLIN'S COMING TO GET YA!!!!
*feels better*
I apologise for over reacting. One of my sore points is being called a hypocrite, particularly with this war shit, I'm spoiling for a fight. I am rather uppity about the world situation at the mo' and to be honest I was holding back on what I really thought about the Menezes shooting for a while, due to being rebuked too many times as a tinfoil hatter. Perhaps I should just say what I really think and to hell with critics? That may be a standpoint with more backbone. Also I have been watching too much Deadwood which makes you swear and fight a lot. Plus, if you really want to know, I'm a little frazzled - read my profile for why. No names no packdrill. Sorry for being an ass. Sorry quidnunc. /bows
More beer for cheymey... /dook dook dook
What a travesty all around. I guess everyone involved can look forward to a long retraining program.
BBC says: "The latest documents suggest Mr de Menezes had walked into Stockwell Tube station, picked up a free newspaper, walked through ticket barriers, had started to run when he saw a train arriving and was sitting down in a train when he was shot."
He was running to catch his train when they caught up with him, overpowered him and executed him like a dog! ROFL. See, this is why we shouldn't buy into the fear they're peddling. In every speech they make, in every press conference they hold, in every news broadcast broadcasted, the message is "fear for your life, the end is nigh. Oh, and you'll just have to accept the police state measures, or do you want to die!?". Fuck that shit. If this is the alternative, I'm not afraid to die.
My very dear Chy, I am only glad that we are good again. I'm sorry if I came out too obnoxious; but I've certainly never thought of you as anything but an intelligent, passionate and decent bloke.
I certainly don't think you a hypocrite, and I'm very sorry if I stupidly gave that impression. I think this whole saga, played out in the media in a time of high stress for us all, leads us all to form conclusions quickly, yet of course near-endless complexity is perhaps inherent in so many matters.
Anyways, friends may oft-times exchange strong words, and that is no terrible thing! Much love at ya from me.
*big hug for Chy* I hope everything turns out ok.
You're still not modding the next time Tracicle drops a sprog.
Christ.
I'm sorry to hear the bad news, Chyren.
What a nightmare. My best to your wife and her mother.
Koko - they officers involved may well face prosecution if the IPCC inquiry says it merits it, but even then I see this summary of unlawful killing verdicts from Inquest suggests jail time would be unlikely.
These are the questions the story brings up to me: Why did they think he was a suspect? Simply because of where he lived? Simply because he was brown (if so, welcome to America!)? Why did they find it necessary to shoot him? I mean, in what instances where they told it was appropriate to shoot (and did this situation fit those circumstances), or did a cop literally jump the gun in fear? I can see a person being on a hair-trigger after these bombings -- but those are precisely the people that you don't give guns to.
Oh, and Chy, I'll send good vibes to you and yours! If you need any help from across the ocean, let me know.
*Punches Chy on the arm in a manly fashion / buys him a beer*
...it also emerged that the victim was mistaken for Hamdi Issac, one of the men suspected of carrying out the failed attacks on London the previous day.FT story
Chy, man, so sorry to hear that. Sendin' good thoughts to you from the other side of the world. Chin up, all that.
Why did they find it necessary to shoot him?
This, of course, is the central question. If he didn't run, in fact showed no sign of knowing that he was being tailed, if he had in fact been pinned down, why shoot him seven times in the head? Why pin him down, for that matter?
Ah, well, Abiezer's comment explains pinning him down, but still doesn't justify unloading eight pounds of lead into his face.
Chy, man, so sorry to hear of your troubles. Sendin' good thoughts from the other side of the world. Chin up, all that.
Anything that would lead to any restrictions on this shoot-to-kill policy is unlikely. No prosecutions, no open inquiry, blah blah blah. All the public is going to get is an endless repeating of the line that it was a tragic mistake, but it shouldn't distract anyone from the task at hand of going after the terrorists. All the family is going to get is some cash payout to avoid going to trial. (Assuming they settle, of course -- an actual trial would be so tied up in national security protections as to be completely useless.)
We've seen this show before. We know how it ends.
<3s Chy. <3s quid.
/bee-sotted
"If you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about"
(Too early in the morning for me to be drunk enough to go in for guy-hugging. Instead, let me offer good, sturdy handshakes to all the parties concerned.)
*many many hugs for Chy and Mrs Chy and Mrs Chy's mom*
And stop being a stranger, quid. We miss you when you're not around. *hugs*
Koko - the officers involved may well face prosecution if the IPCC inquiry says it merits it [...]
What I meant to say was, I'm sure all departments will have to undergo a retraining. The individuals involved will be lucky to have jobs when it's all done.
The long while I've been thinking about what a cock-up this is, but it's taken me till now to think about the perspective of this poor fellow.
A most terrifying way to go.
♥s Al et al
*flutters eyelashes*
Liberalax: I`ll take two please. Does it mix with Gin well?
Don't be a filthy terrorist! All good citizens are asked to cooperate when being brutally killed by our good officers sworn to protect and serve.
Welcome to George Bush's world of Fronteeer Justice! Shoot first, lie later.
As I understand it, their orders were to prevent him from getting on the train in the first place. Why didn't they stop him sooner? Were they ALL taking a piss?
I'm reserving judgment until I know more.
Actually, I agree with un-: sometimes you have to kill the innocent bystander to protect the innocent bystander.
The more info that's coming out, the more this is slowly starting to stink to high heaven.
Rather than what we'd been led to believe -- running through the station, jumping over the barrier, ignoring commands to stop, which, had he actually DONE these things led me to believe it was an honest but fatal mistake on the police's part -- it's starting to look like summary execution by an officer on the grounds of a piss-poor supposition that de Menezes was on of the bombers himself.
If this new information shows how it really came down, I'm seeing an awful lot of murder charges for those who fired, accessory to murder charges for those restraining him, and dereliction of duty findings and rapid dismissals for just about everyone on the stakeout team. That would make this one of the most colossal fuckups I've ever heard of in the UK.
"If you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about"
I'm going to need a new mantra.
Damn.
Or if I may put it more succinctly:
An honest mistake is shooting someone who is acting just as a suicide bomber would act.
A colossal fuckup which deserves criminal charges is shooting someone who isn't acting like a suicide bomber, but looks like one of the blurry CCTV stills you saw a couple days before.
layne -- somehow the bottom part of my post, wherein I made a similar observation, was cut off. Thanks for filling in the gap.
I work near police hq, and before the bombings there was an alert. I could see the police diverting people through the park, and police at the other entrance diverting them back the way they came. At the time I thought it was an Israeli forces tactic to make the terrorists dizzy, but I’m starting to have my doubts about their competence.
I thank you very much, all, for your thoughts, but I am very angry about the death of this bloke, when we were all told it was a 'mistaken identity' due to his actions. now we know he didn't do anything wrong and the voice of outrage has to be raised LOUD.
Tony Blair has to answer for this. If he does not initiate a serious inquiry, he should be strung up. I don't believe such an outrage has ever occurred in Britain in my lifetime, at least. Something must be done.
Briank -- thanks for articulating what has been gnawing at the back of my mind for a long, long time.
Ah, well, Abiezer's comment explains pinning him down, but still doesn't justify unloading eight pounds of lead into his face.
While I agree that this is a colossal fuck up... It is standard policy among anti-terrorist groups to execute the suicide bomber before he can trigger the explosion. The are trained to shoot for the head, as a chest wound will still give the person time to detonate. If you merely pin someone down who has a bomb strapped to them, they press button, bomber, cops, and anyone in the immediate vicinity go bye bye.
Unfortunately, as evidenced in this case, this leaves zero room for error. Unless you want to weather the bad PR, public backlash, lawsuits and guilt, you better be ass certain that your target does indeed have a bomb before you apply hard line anti-terrorist tactics.
Unless there is good evidence why this bloke was targetted, explaining away his death as a mistake or colossal fuckup is just not enough. Anti-terrorist teams are trained for efficiency, not absolutism. If we can't trust them to be accurate, their existance is worthless.
Unless there is good evidence why this bloke was targetted, explaining away his death as a mistake or colossal fuckup is just not enough. Anti-terrorist teams are trained for efficiency, not absolutism. If we can't trust them to be accurate, their existance is worthless.
I'm not sure if I subscribe to the whole "he knew too much" theory, but I will keep an open mind about it, and will try to keep an eye on this story as details follow.
And Chy, I think the problem in this case was that these were regular cops, who had recently engaged in anti-terrorist training. As such, they didn't properly apply the correct "tactic" for this instance.
While not completely analogous, this does remind me of the Diallo shooting in NY. Cops suspect man is dealer, (when in fact he's just returning home from a long day of work, and slightly resembles someone they're looking for), they tell him to stop, he pulls out his wallet, a n00b cop mistakes the wallet for a weapon, and accidentally discharges one bullet. The other cops hear a shot and assume that it was fired by Diallo. Long story short, 60 bullets later, you have a tragic story, and a corpse.
As Debaser626 said, the fuck up was the mistaken identity, not the shooting. Once de Menezes had been (wrongly) identified as a terror suspect, everything else that happened was standard procedure, and the police did what they were supposed to do.
If there is an inquest, it should focus on how he was misidentified in the first place.
everything else that happened was standard procedure
Disagree. As mentioned above, if he was believed to be such a threat, why wasn't he stopped before he entered the subway station? Why was he believed to be such a threat that he had to be killed, when he wasn't wearing bulky clothes that could conceal a bomb?
Perhaps we'll learn more that will put these things into perspective, but it looks like numerous mistakes were made.
These cops have been given the power to execute citizens on the street. Mistakes should not be allowed, or that power should not be given.
Not strictly true, rocket88 - there appears to have been several additional failures, including a complete breakdown in communication near the end of the operation and a delay in the handover from the surveillance team to CO19 which allowed him to enter the station.
(And they weren't n00b cops, Debaser. There aren't any n00bs in SO19.)
Furthermore, he was not at any point "identified as a suspect". That's the scariest thing about this. A key member of the surveillance team was having a piss at the time he left the house. The closest we have is one officer telling the IPCC that "I could not positively identify this male as Hussein Omar, but he had distinctive 'Mongolian eyes'."
Quoth Rocket88: "Once de Menezes had been (wrongly) identified as a terror suspect, everything else that happened was standard procedure, and the police did what they were supposed to do."
If you subsitute Iraq for de Menezes and Bush for the police, you've just described the situation in in Iraq.
If you subsitute Iraq for de Menezes and Bush for the police, you've just described the situation in in Iraq.
Indeed, the use of pre-emptive unilateral lethal force is the only way to deal with those evil doers. And lying to cover up our mistakes is only to be expected. After all, we're the good guys!
That's another thing that's been bothering me. Why was only one guy watching the house at any given time? With a surveillance team, all eyes are on the object of surveillance, and if someone needs to take a piss, he tells the others. That's just routine. It doesn't make sense.
I prefer the lightsabre-brandishing quid to the thoughtful, apologetic one.
The Liberalax product does interest me, though I wonder what it is composed of.
Are the terrorists winning yet?
It is standard policy among anti-terrorist groups to execute the suicide bomber before he can trigger the explosion. If you merely pin someone down who has a bomb strapped to them, they press [the] button...
Here's why the shoot to kill policy is not effective in the long run. Think like a terrorist for a second. What do you do if you're faced with a shoot to kill policy? Why, I'd rig up my bomb so that it would GO OFF when my finger slips *off* the trigger. A deadman's trigger.
yeah, go ahead and shoot me as many times in the head as you like....
I think the shoot-to-kill policy is fear and anger driven not something that really helps make anyone safer. And in this case, resulted in murder.
Ugly, this news.
Also: Good thoughts to you and yours, Chy.
Suicide terrorists are pretty much impossible to ever be winning against. If any of them are alive, then they are winning because they are about to plan something that is going to hurt you. If they are all dead, then they have won because they have all achieved their goals by dying in their mission. The only way to truly defeat suicidal terrorists is to convert them to Christianity.
My point was that I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) the police who actually did the shooting were told that de Menezes was a (potential) terrorist, and to act accordingly. If he did indeed have exposed wires protruding from his backpack, then they acted properly for the situation they were in. I don't blame them for this The mistakes that caused this mess happened upstream.
StoryBored: The initial witness reports were that several police pinned him down while some held his hands in a tight fist while others shot him. This, I believe, is standard procedure to circumvent the "dead man trigger".
Gaaaak! I hope that was said facetiously, bernockle.
Thinking good thoughts for you and your family, Chy
They turned me into a newt!
(Christians, that is - not Chy & his in-laws.)
I reiterate: noise gotta be made.
If I read this right, his identity was mistaken because one of the surveillance team was taking a leak when he should have been watching. Bloody brilliant surveillance operation, that is. Watch like a hawk - except when you need a piss.
*anger, steam slowly dissipates while reading this post's responses*
What's there to say? Nothing. Nothing can undo the loss of life.
Here's hoping we stop relying on machines and defective procedures in order to 'feel safe'.
*stares at security camera*
And, strentgh for everybody involved, Chy.
The Beeb has put up a concise timeline of events surrounding the shooting.
At that point, armed officers are "provided with positive identification", the document says.
Who provided the "positive ID"?
rocket88 - he didn't have a backpack. He didn't have an electrician's belt on. There were no wires.
islander - I suspect that means the surveillance officer (the one who grabbed him) let the armed officers know which guy they were looking for. But then, that's just an assumption, so given this case it's probably wrong.
I have no words for this unfortunate tragedy. Having experienced 9-11 first-hand, I can only attribute it to mass hysterical dimentia - - wherein everyone suddenly "looks" "suspect." I don't understand why this man had seven bullets pumped into his head [What, one or two would not do the deed?]. Someone needs to be held accountable for that. It's one of those bizarre "wrong-place-at-the-wrong-time" situations in my mind. I feel for his family...
...
Chy, I happen to be one of those types that looks at profiles rather frequently. I did notice your updates, and instead of posting something, I sent well-wishing thoughts to you and your family...
If we can't have execution squads murdering people with "Mongolian eyes" then the terrorists have already won.
*sends good mojo to chy and the family*
*agrees with chy about the importance of an outraged response*
*posts old but relevant link*
Learn from our mistakes, please.
Overreliance on the CCTV system, plus the fact that that bombings had taken place so recently giving the police itchy trigger fingers. Presumably at the very, very least there will be a public apology to the family of the victim from Tony Blair on down.
He was still an overstayer, I assume - that wasn't made up? Not that it makes a difference.
Bernockle that would be owl semen, of course.
And all the best, Chy.
I wonder who's leaking all this information?
rocket88 - he didn't have a backpack. He didn't have an electrician's belt on. There were no wires.
This story changes more every day. Everything in the initial reports was either a mistake or a lie...I'm not sure which. I'll admit I came to a (premature) conclusion when this first happened, and I'm forming a completely different one now, but I think I'll give up on any conclusions, since I suspect I'll never know the true facts of this case.
Don';t Speak of Leaking!
I stepped out
I had to pee
and the situation
got away from me
for everything went
from bad to badder
but at least I have
an empty bladder
Even if he did have an electrician's belt on, there wouldn't be wires sticking out of it. There wouldn't be anything sticking out of it, because it'd either pose an injury risk or a risk of losing a tool (Mr. Minda is an electrician).
Can't have police killing unoffending people. Or killing people simply on suspicion. It's completely unacceptable.
Because there are a lot more police running around than there are terrorists, and the police now also present a risk to the general public.
bees, great work of art. Chy, bless you many times. Dont know what to do with this mess.
It seems Sir Ian Blair tried to halt an investigation into the killing.
Usual procedure for external investigations was not followed in that for three days the IPCC were not allowed in the tube station.
And the military seems now to have been involved in these doings. The individual who relieved himself is described as a soldier, although commands are said to have been issued by the police.
Something remarkably -- odd -- going on.
/wonders whose military? wonders if foreign personnel, civilian or military, were involved?
This is the most upsetting thread I've ever read.
Good vibes to the monkeys.
Fuck the police.
Bees - Holy. Living. Fuck.
Blair has to go. Right the fuck now. That's absolutely disgusting behaviour. I'm getting nostalgic for the time when this was merely horrifying, rather than all-out sickening.
flash, what is "SO19"?
*rant deleted*
good thoughts Chy
The Officer in command of SO19 is Chief Superintendent Paul Robinson.
He got son 'splainin' to dooo
Well, OF COURSE it's the victim's fault.
With BushCo teaching well the art of pointing the finger to misdirect, who else could we blame?
From the BBC story on the Met stalling:
Mr Menezes' "tragic" death had to be seen in the context of what was "the largest criminal inquiry in English history", Sir Ian told the programme. "It is one death out of 57."
TELL me he didn't say that. TELL ME he didn't belittle this man's death like that.
Saying that it's one death out of fifty seven makes it seems like the odds are in your favour, that you're doing a good job, of only one of the fifty-seven is YOUR fault. But de Menezes wasn't one of fifty-seven. He was one of one.
Thing is, with Sir Ian saying that it's one death of 57, it's implying that de Menezes was a victim of terrorism like the rest.
He said it, not me.
Bees, that was absolutely brilliant. It's going on my fridge.
I'm so sad I can't move anyo\more.
That was my totally bad phonay-celtic/jewish/prophylactic. Just FYI.
P.S. You guys are the smartest at uncovering relevant information. Just wanted you to know.
On the pissing squaddie - I was left wondering if in fact he's deleted something off the tape that he thinks is better for us not to see, as that seems more likely than him being unable to hold his cock in the one hand and press a button with the other. Or maybe that's not taught at Hereford.
He still had a view of the apartment apparently - enough to describe (correctly) Mr de Menezes as IC1. But then I can't imagine what it would record that would be better lost - maybe he thought he had the only video evidence that de Menezes was in no way a fit for the suspect and thought it best to get rid?
Freedom of the press belongs to those who own one The truth belongs to those that own the security cameras.
Smile, you're on Candid Biometrics!
It's official. It's OK for the police to shoot you in the head without warning. The British police will be distributing a leaflet that informs the public of this.
Wow. Welcome Mr. Orwell. Your Victory martini will be up shortly.
He was running to catch his train when they caught up with him, overpowered him and executed him like a dog! ROFL. See, this is why we shouldn't buy into the fear they're peddling. In every speech they make, in every press conference they hold, in every news broadcast broadcasted, the message is "fear for your life, the end is nigh. Oh, and you'll just have to accept the police state measures, or do you want to die!?". Fuck that shit. If this is the alternative, I'm not afraid to die.
Freedom of the press belongs to those who own oneThe truth belongs to those that own the security cameras. Smile, you're on Candid Biometrics!