August 11, 2005

• 1. Any language your child learns is going to be a new language to them. 2. Don't stress about it, as a new parent you'll have much bigger things to worry about -- like sleep. 3. If your child learning a second language is very important to you (I doubt the baby will care one way or the other) just pick whatever one they will naturally recieve exposure to. E.g. My son (17 mos old) is picking up Mandarin because that is the language his babysitter speaks. He sees her 3 days a week and he is naturally learning the language (at the same time he is learning English -- our at home language.) 4. If you really want the language skills to stick, consider learning the same language yourself. 5. Nighttime CD's sound icky. Way to Orwellian for me; plus it seems like a lazy approach to teaching. Lastly, how often will your baby need to speak a second language in his/her sleep?
• Norsk.
• I don't get the whole Madarin thing. Two reasons why, most Canadian/Chinese speak Cantonese, and depending who you ask, the languages aren't the same/transferable. And secondly, most people that speak Madarin also speak English. And speak it beter than you or I. French. When the kid is school aged. It's free, useful and pisses off Albertans. Total win. And don't mention to any of your friends that you're teaching junior Esperanto or Portugese or what ever the hell you settle on, unless of course you want them thinking you're a twat. Teaching junior a second langauge only sets you up for comments like "sure he may speak Russian, but he still craps his pants at three."
• Zanshin's right. Assuming you're in Canada, go with French. Knowing French would make it easier to learn another Romance language, and the kid would potentially have a chance to use it.
• (I speak poor French, passable Spanish, and a wee smattering of Mandarin, if that helps) Your best bet is to let your child hear the language as spoken by a native speaker. Vocabulary isn't nearly as important as grammar, and it takes a native speaker to impart that. If that's not you, then find someone else :)
• Congrats!
• Klingon! Your baby needs to be prepared when the alien overlords come to seize our galaxy!
• Pig latin! Otherwise s/he'll be lost on the playground and won't understand the secret codes of his/her chums.
• Tetum! If the child eventually works with the East Timorese solidarity community, s/he'll be quite happy that you introduced her to the language spoken in parts of half of a southeast Asian island.
• Techsmith is of the oppinion that it takes a native speaker to impart grammer in a student. I beg to differ. I speak Swedish,English, German, some bad French and a smattering of Japanese, and I know a damned sight more about the grammar of, say, English and German, than I know of the grammar of my native Danish.I believe that you tend to speak your native language "instinctively", that is to say, without thinking of the formal straucture of the sentence. Greybeard
• You don't necessarily want to judge by what language is useful today, so much as what's going to be spoken in twenty or thirty years, when your youngster's striking out on his/her own. Rather hard to guess in what direction(s) a child't interests eventually will run, but if you're excited about another language -- or for that matter about learning itself -- then the odds are good your youngster will pick that up from you. Might want to think in terms of language families rather than languages -- Spanish and French are not all that dissimilar. languagehat might be a good one to ask about that.
• Introduce the heir-apparent to shamanic states and speaking in tongues. It's never too early to channel. And it's a great way to skip the whole learning process. don't forget snake handling when considering athletic activities!
• Binary. Computers are clearly taking over the world.
• It's not grammar so much as informal grammar and idioms that you can learn from a native speaker. I don't know that what language matters so much. Once you've picked up a second language, the third, fourth, and so on become easier.
• I read somewhere that the more languages you learn, the easier it is to learn more languages. So I would say teach the kid the one that's easiest for you -- the one you can reinforce the most by speaking it yourself. (Tapes won't do a heck of a lot, but speaking it with/in front of the kid will be effective.) Speaking the second language with your child should also increase your skills, since language is a use it or lose it kinda thing. Also, congrats!
• Inuit. Trust me.
• Basque, its the obvious choice!
• Greybeard, you have a point. I've been speaking English since I was a tot, and I still can't diagram a frigging sentence. As for which languages, try Xhosa/Zulu, Syrian Arabic and Tagalog.
• American. That can become useful in the next generation. /ducks
• It's seems people are confusing "grammar" with "the study of" grammar. Who's going to pass on better language skills, someone who speaks poorly, passably, and a wee smattering of the language, or someone who speaks it instinctively?
• Klingon, Finnish, and Banglish. At least he'll be interesting at parties and Trekkie conventions.
• Java, that'll be useful for the short term...
• I vote for the Mandarin! It's easier for a born English speaker to learn French later on in life than it would be to learn Mandarin. But the problem would be finding a good teacher that would give daily exposure. As well, in Canada, the public school system provides plenty of French learning opportunities already. If you want your child to learn another Romance language maybe Spanish is a better choice. Also that "Playing the CD" thing? It don't work.
• I'd start with the language of love and move on up after weaning.
• It's true, that "learn while you sleep" stuff is total ass.
• If you're not a native speaker or at least have years and years of immersion, you won't be able to teach your child. I want our kids to learn other languages from a young age, but I want them to be comfortable speaking English first and able to communicate with people around them. I plan, if he's interested, to introduce our son to either Spanish or German next year when he's three. I was told, and I believe, that you need to be a native speaker because otherwise what you're saying won't flow, you won't have the right tone and intonation as someone for whom it rolls off the tongue. I sing lullabies to my kids in Spanish, German and Italian and that's enough for me right now. And Ethan adores that goddamn Schnappi song. Maybe you could get your baby used to the sound of other languages that way? And much luck with the impending daddyhood!
• What you get by learning a language as a child from a native speaker is instinctual grammar. It doesn't matter if you can't explain it, you just know how the language goes together, like you know how to walk or how to swallow. It's what makes someone truely fluent. I think I heard somewhere that truely biligual people generally have learned both languages in childhood. That said, yes, you are getting ahead of yourself. My brother started going on about how he was going to send his daughter to French immersion when she was a baby. But she actually has many speech problems, and is in speech therapy now at age six, working on English. She may have mild cerebral palsy, we're not sure. Maybe I'm being a downer, but it's hard to get your hopes up and to be disapointed. Love your child, give them all you can, and that will be enough.
• (Which I am sure you will do, of course).
• I also had all sorts of linguistic plans for my kid, but I feel it's mostly important that she learns English right now. The other stuff can come later, I would like everything to be as unambiguous as possible just for the moment.
• Perl and C++ are both pretty useful. Of course, Python is the latest Hot New Thing. Several people whose opinion I highly respect have jumped on the Python bandwagon. But really, I'd start the kid off with English, and work from there.
• Little kids love Muzzy for learning French. It's a cartoon French instruction show with a friendly monster. Adults tend to like French In Action, but I don't know if you got that in Canada (it was out of Yale; Muzzy is from the BBC). Lots of libraries have both of them. But you can definitely sit a two-year-old in front of Muzzy and they'll pick up some French in the same way that they'll pick up Spanish from Dora The Explorer. (When I was a kid, we learned all our early childhood Spanish from Sesame Street, which is probably why my own Spanish skills are limited to counting to ten. A slightly older kid can be taught Latin - there are kids' programs for it - which will make picking up any Romance language somewhat easier. Though NOT as much easier as some ppl would have you believe; the grammatical structure isn't really that similar anymore.

• 2. Don't stress about it, as a new parent you'll have much bigger things to worry about -- like sleep.

  ditto that. first off, i'd recommend teaching junior the language of the land of nod. when you do start a second language, i think going for something outside the indo-european language family makes sense, as english is a very good introduction to the romance and (west) germanic languages. enjoy fatherhood!
• Congratulations Northern Exposed! I think Zashin said it well. I became a parent just over one year ago, and everything I contemplated prior to the birth of our son pretty much flew out the window once he was out of the womb! (Monkeyfilter? What's that? Sheesh, I don't think I logged in for at least a couple months afterwards). Our household is bilingual (and teetering on trilingual: English, Bahasa, and the occasional Mandarin). My son is now 14 months, and it is fascinating to see the words he attempts to use (which is very limited at this point - some experts say that children exposed to more than one language simultaneously are slightly delayed in developing their speaking skills, which seems to make sense). In my opinion, I think it's best to let your child be exposed to whatever language is natively spoken and available in her/his immediate environment. Me, I'm still waiting to get past the stinky butt-wiping sessions! And that's not going to happen any time soon with a second one on the way!!! Best of luck!
• As far as I know it helps in learning languages if one adult speaks one language to the kid. At least that's what most people do in my country in bilingual (finnish/swedish) families. Don't know about Klingon, but because of heavy word infection Finnish (as well as Estonian and Hungarian) and Basque are damned near impossible to speak properly if you don't learn them as a child.
• I'd start with the language of love and move on up after weaning. posted by peacay at 04:43AM UTC on August 11, 2005 =German, THE language of love (and world domination. BONUS!)
• Northern Exposed, I just gave birth nine weeks ago and after this much sleep deprivation, I'm having a hard time pronouncing my own name and finishing my sentences, let alone thinking about foreign language skills. Also, what tracicle said. I've said this elsewhere on MoFi, but I'd love to learn sign language. I think there's some books or videos out there that can help me teach my girl to .... zzzzzz
• Mickey enjoy your sleep. You've earned it. Northern Exposed, et al ... CONGRATULATIONS!
• Thanks to all for the ideas and opinions. And congratulations to all recent parents, especially those of the female persuasion. While I'd like him or her to start learning a new language earlier than I did, I've been convinced that infancy is a just a wee bit soon. Besides, some form of basic sign language (hot!, cold! hungry! full! pain! wet! tired! etc.) may be more appropriate for baby than hoping that he'll be able to escort us around (insert country here) when he's six.
• Ah, congrats to ye, Northern. You'll be a fine Dad. *monkeys gather around and sing the Happy Parent song for all the new Monkey Parents*
• ah yes, congrats! silly of me to have left that off above. also, kudos for having such concerns about the well-being of your kid! Do you mean elimination communication when you speak of that basic sign language? I could swear there was a thread here on that.
• patita, I remember that thread about babies not wearing diapers. Teaching them sign language is a totally different thing. See here for details.
• Trac was on a roll but stopped short. Sing songs in different languages to your child, fer shure. But, most importantly, teach the babe music. As soon as you can, get drums, rattles, bells, you name it. Sing all the time. Teach rhythm and dance and songs and happyhappywheee! Then continue on with music lessons when s/he's old enough to start (which is pretty early--now they say kids can learn an instrument at four or five) Stimulate the musical part of the brain and get a double benefit in both langage and math abilities!
• A friend of mine's sister taught her child sign language very early. Because of this, the kid hasn't had to wear diapers since he was six months old (He requests to use the bathroom, and she holds him over the toilet!), and he rarely cries since he can communicate his needs. No one in my immediate family has tried this, so YMMV, but it seems to have worked well for her. I have heard that this may delay vocal language skills, but I don't know that that's necessarily true.
• Started taking my little one to music class when he was 10 months old - each weekend for three months. The babies were introduced to new instruments each class (and they did not hold back, everthing from oboes to didgeridoos and inbetween). The best class was when they introduced the viola. The instructor began playing this "romantic" ballad, and two of the babies crawled up to eachother and began feeling eachother's faces (All the parents were squeeling in amazement)! Songs in various languages were also sung with piano accompaniment... Right on GramMa! Stimulation, stimulation!
• Some friends of mine have had nothing but great experiences with teaching sign language, as, according to the theory, the language skills develop before the motor skills attached to forming words. As for learning a second language, I think the only important thing is that there IS a second language -- I'm not convinced it matters which one. Certainly, there's no sense in trying to project which languages the kid will need for a career -- it may make a lot of sense now to learn Mandarin or Chinese, which is why a lot of kids are doing it. Paradoxically, there may be a greater demand for someone who's skilled in a more 'obscure' language. There's a lot to be said for widely spoken languages (english and french together cover half the countries in the world, add spanish, and you're really flying), but it may be the opportunity to get in one of the hard ones (like korean), before they build up an instinctual resistance to something so different. My mother tongue is English, and I picked up Dutch at the dinner table and French at school. I took Russian in first year, and I loved it. Didn't do well at all, but I still loved it. Despite that, though, I'm kicking myself for not taking Cree instead. I'd suggest aiming your child at the best language-learning opportunity he or she may have, regardless of what that language is. So, as usual, I've been no help at all. Carry on.
• Nice to see all the support for your kids to learn French :-) My kids speak both French and English, and their verbal skills (in either language) never seemed to be impeded compared with those of their unilingual friends - quite the contrary. However, I think Zanshin made the best point in the 3rd point of the very first comment: make sure it's a language your kid will be exposed to - otherwise it might be somewhat of a waste of effort. And just to provide a counter argument: I'd get one of those 101 languages of the world cd package and create my own cds from them, with 'sample phrases and sounds', and play that instead of a specific language. That way, your kid might get exposed to (and perhaps, repeat) sounds that will enhance his/her later ability to learn new languages. Think of the difficulty that some asian speakers have in differenciating between r/l ... or English speakers pronouncing the French "u" (or French speakers pronouncing voiced "h"s and both "th"s).
• everthing from oboes to didgeridoos and in between Whoa... read that line TOO fast. /blush
• It is dangerous to teach a young child Chinese. They may grow up to take translation work off me.
• There's always this approach.
• Teach sign language to your infant, definitely but do not use it exclusively! Two sets of parents I know taught their respective sons basic signs (yes, no, hungry, thirsty, toilet, etc). One child learned enough to communicate only his most basic needs and did well out of it, and his speech developed normally. The other parents taught their son everything in sign language, focusing more on signs than speech. When I saw him in January he was barely talking and preferred to sign, despite being 26 months old. Another factor in that was socialisation, probably: the talkative boy is friends with my talkative boy and they have a very actove group of friends their age, so plenty of chance to yell and argue, while the other wee boy, in the US, is fairly isolated because his parents are quite introverted. Another thing to add to list of child needs: socialisation.
• That is the risk of sign language. We have friends with a 2 year old. She taught him some sign language. Enough to signal some words, but not all of the basics. While she tried to associate them with spoken words, they're now concerned that his verbal skills are below what is considered normal. But the child doesn't really have the opportunity to socialize with other children. I hadn't considered that aspect, but I hope that our youngster will be able to hang out with the infant cream of the neighbourhood.
• Just don't try and picture that. Ewwww.