July 11, 2005

• Perhaps now Quiddy can find a mate...
• Will modern humans build a living Neanderthal one day? Once a thing becomes imaginable, sooner or later someone will try to put it into practice, if past history's anything to go by. Though if I were given a comeback vote, it would be for the revivification of the woolly mammoth, I think.
• Mammoths feh...Dodos more interesting (and cheaper to feed).
• Latest news - after reconstructing Neanderthal from genes, scientists discover the guy comes complete with a larynx. Re-recording of Mike Oldfields Tubular Bells Piltdown Man track underway.
• I vote for the smilodon sabre-toothed tiger bad mutherf**ker. I would like one as a pet. I would call it Toothy.
• Seem to recall the dodo belonged to the pigeon family, so suggest we think this one through carefully. Imagine mature dodos flocking in modern cities. Worrysome: the Extremely Large Hawks then reuired to control these Exceptionally Large pigeons. Mammoths have living relatives, so it might be possible to bring an embryonic mammoth to term with an elephant-surrogate mama, but I am having trouble envisioning the embryonic dodo attaining maturity without a shell. Or would they devise a plastrick substitute? Perhaps it is best, for now, to return to the Return of the Neanderthals.
• I have often thought that the mythological stories of 'wild men' or yetis or even 'elves' (the Tuatha de Danaan for instance) in Northern cultures are some kind of ancient racial memory of the Neanderthal peoples. In some ways they were extraordinarily better adapted than early modern man (Cro Magnon), viz their larger nasal area which would have had much more nerve tissue, probably equaling superior sense of smell. Their children did not, apparently, have the extended childhood that ours do, doing away with teenage years. They were highly physically adapted, powerful, and had greater lung area much like the Innuit, probably to do with colder climate. The slighter-built, less environmentally-adapted Cro-Magnons would probably have been impressed by Neanderthal's tracking & hunting abilities, even if they did not possess the former's more sophisticated tools. I think this may give rise to racial memories of the wild man of the woods, the faerie or the goblin. The 'other'. The period of contact must have been extraordinary. In fact, if you ask me, the last stroke for Neanderthal was the climactic warming which began around 20K years ago. I'm dubious about these theories that Neanderthal wasn't as mentally adapted as Cro Magnon, did not have art objects etc until contact with the latter, simply because it could have been expressed in materials that did not survive. We have sophisticated cave art surviving from around 20K years ago; it seems unlikely that Neanderthal would not have had some developed creative abilities, perhaps wicker weaving, etc. We know that they cared for their sick, and probably were highly sophisticated thinkers. I think it likely that they interbred with Cro Magnon, at least in some areas, but the genetic evidence of this would by now be lost.
• I believe the Tasmanian Tiger is another good candidate for cloning. However, although they have a pickled tiger only some decades old, and frozen mammoths only a few centuries, so far as I know they have never managed to get a full set of DNA from either. The Neanderthal thing must be very ambitious - though I understand the Max Planck Institute has previously been on the sceptical side about DNA recovery, so presumably they have very good reasons to think it's going to work.
• Bringing Back the Moa Pros: 1.People did for this Big Bird, so there is poetic justice if people bring it back. 2.It will give the New Zealanders something to think about besides sheep and kiwis. 3.It will make a further attraction for tourists. 4.Think of the delight of a nation always able to give a little moa. 4.It takes a village to eat an omelet. Cons: 1.They are awfully damn big. 2.Who's supposed to clean the moa coop this week?
• Another pro: Moas (Moai?) can play rugby.
• Number 4. Ach, can't count any better than I can type! O if I only knew a little moa!
• /collapse
• gimme some moa
• Ethics question for the day: They complete the neanderthal genome, maybe even manage to clone a live one. It's discovered that their intelligence is flawed, and neandrethals could never handle the modern world. They're not up to human levels of sentience (or something like that). Higher than chimps, but definitely not at our level. Would it be immoral to construct a park and populate it with neanderthals? Follow-up question: Neanderthals turn out to be at least as intelligent as humans. The first cloned one wins its freedom in court. It runs for high political office. Would you vote for it?
• Well, I'm sure President Neaderthal would be a step up from our current situation. OH, BURN! Also, "Firstly, we will learn a lot about the Neanderthals. Secondly, we will learn a lot about the uniqueness of human beings. And thirdly, it's simply cool," Rubin said. I like this kind of scientific thinking. We don't do nearly enough science just because it's cool. Where's my hoverboard, dammit!
• Perhaps we could stage Neanderthal cage fights or summat. I bet they were tough SOBs.
• I bet they were tough SOBs. Natural sprinters, too. Very dangerous over short distances. That said, Chy's comments on the potential of the Neanderthal for the creation of the myth of the wild man or elvenfolk are intriguing. The period of co-existence must have been an interesting period.
• Sure, I would vote for a Neanderthal as long as he (or she) was more attractive than his opponent. I hear they're kind of dwarfy, though. Not my style.
• Since Neanderthals are, by definition, already and irrevocably human, they presumably would be equal to anyone else human in the eyes of the law which doesn't currently distinguish between Neandethal humanity and the humanity of Homo sapiens sapiens. Just another test-tube baby, in short. But if we are to be ethical, is it ethical to bring into being a person/human/Neanderthal who, once s/he began to interact with other people, would realize he/she was the only living example of an extinct species? Being human, wouldn't this really mess up his/her head? So, no -- think I'd not vote him/her into any office without knowing more.
• Yeah, but, would you..you know..*nudge nudge / wink wink*, maybe after a few pints? You can tell us, you're amongst friends.
• A couple moa pints over here, Joe. And if he downs 'em all, then our Neanderthal will assuredly have to go.
• "Moreover, the brain power of the species had considerably increased; for, whereas the range in the period of Pithecanthropus had been from about 900 to about 1200 cc., that of Neanderthal was from 1250 to about 1725- considerably greater at the upper range, that is to say, than the norm for man today, which, as we have said, is a mere 1400 to 1500 cc. The picture is no longer that of a lot of scattered families of moronic ape-men, but of an extraordinarily sturdy race of human beings, perhaps of a slightly higher mental order than ourselves, fighting it out, at the dawn of what may be considered to be our properly human history, in a landscape calling for every bit of wit and spunk at their disposal." -Joseph Campbell on Neanderthals
• heh...
• Monkeyfilter: Spunk at their disposal best one yet
• beeswacky, the Japanese are trying to bring back the wooly mammoth! I don't know about bringing back Neanderthals. If they're sentient, that's just a tragedy waiting to happen, I think.
• Would it be immoral to construct a park and populate it with neanderthals? I wouldn't call it immoral so much as Totally Fucking Awesome.
• I for one welcome our.. etc
• Cloned neanderthals + cloned mammoths = live-action Far Side cartoons. Make it so.
• yeah, and Raquel Welch in a fur bikini...
• neanderthals could never handle the modern world. They're not up to human levels of sentience *angrily bangs stone club on keyboard* YOU TYPE GOOD. NOW COME OVER HERE FOR FIGHT. SEE IF YOU CAN HANDLE GROG.
• Unfrozen Neanderthal Lawyer: [Aboard airplane] Stewardess, could you get me another drink? Stewardess: Sorry sir, the head steward said you already had enough. Unfrozen Neanderthal Lawyer: But she don't understand, I need this drink. I'm a Neanderthal and I'm frightened by your strange flying machine, so get me another Duccian water pronto. Stewardess: Sorry sir. Unfrozen Neanderthal Lawyer: Listen, I'll sue you and your WHOLE CRUMMY AIRLINE!
• I've been waiting for that, Fes.
• I aim to please.
• What would a Neanderthal in today's world look like, I wonder?
• Most likely fairies/elves were the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of Europe. There is abundant evidence of "Little People" living "under the hill" in the British Isles. Margaret Murray is the horse's mouth on this theory. But trolls now... What we know about the Neanderthals is that the most recent fossils that have turned up have dated from around 28,000 years ago, which as humans go is pretty darned recent. That does not mean that there couldn't have been Neanderthals running around much later whose remains were not preserved. Their presence might also explain Germanic and Scandinavian "dwarves" (they would have been substantially shorter than modern humans, just as the "little people" were substantially shorter than the Indo-Europeans that supplanted them), gnomes, wild men, and what have you. There is a wonderful short story called "The Treasure of Odirex" by Paul Sheffield that features Erasmus Darwin and some modern Neanderthal remnants, and the novel Eaters of the Dead by Michael Crichton, which professes to be based on the journal of one Ibn Fadlan (as far as I can find out, the extant fragments of Ibn Fadlan himself have nothing to say about "monsters of the mist") and "Beowulf", which has quite a bit to say about enormously strong, hairy man-monsters. And there is Mary Renault's haunting recreation of a Neanderthal remnant in The Bull from the Sea. Anyone care to speculate on whether "hobbits" are completely extinct on Flores and the surrounding islands?
• LaGatta: your Murray link took to to my Amazon shopping cart, which was empty. Is this the one you meant? I did a google search on her connecting neanderthals to "little people," but found nothing useful. Since you've read her works, can you give us any quotes? (Though it appears from what I did read that her research, done in the 1930s is a bit outdated.)
• I don't know where they get the idea that Neanderthals were shorter. Their heights appear to have varied according to diet and era much like homo sapiens' heights have done.
• The idea of short Neanderthals comes from the original type specimen which had rickets and was incorrectly interpreted by Marcelin Boule.
• That does not mean that there couldn't have been Neanderthals running around much later ... HUNH? GROG NOT RUNNING AROUND. MAYBE YOU ARE THE ONE RUNNING AROUND. GROG LIKE TO AMBULATE. just as the "little people"... GROG BIG WHERE IT COUNTS.
• Elves/fairfolk of folklore exist in places tangential to, but not necessarily of, our world. In this sense they are timeless, immortal. Consensus about their origins is that they were reflections of attitudes on the part of the living towards the dead. This position neither validates nor contradicts the notion that Neanderthals were at the root of tales about elves/fairfolk. /verdict: not proven
• Bring back the pygmy mammoth! Oh please oh please Mr nice Japanese test-tube mammoth maker, do it now.
• ...the idea that Neanderthals were shorter. Not conspicuously shorter, but on average (go back and read the article; male Neanderthals averaged 5'6", male humans 5'9"). I'm not saying there were these little wee pigmy Neanderthals, just shorter and stockier, and this became exaggerated over time, like the stature of the fairies or elves. path, Margaret Murray doesn't equate the fairies or elves with Neanderthals, but with pre-Indo-European humans: small, wiry, dark-complectioned ("brownies"). I don't think she's so much outdated as just absorbed into the basically accepted theories on the matter. She does go a bit out on a limb with her witch covens in high places, but I think it's generally accepted that she's right on about the little folks. Her two seminal works are God of the Witches and The Witch Cult in Western Europe. Speaking of little people, whatever became of the African pigmies? Have they been assimilated out of existence, or what?
• How about a pygmy Smilodon? I'm not sure my hide is up to raising and socializing the full-size model (don't worry, he's just glad to see you).
• >small, wiry, dark-complectioned At first glance, I read this as "small, whiny..."
• There are folkloric accounts of wee folk, divine folk, giant folk, and so forth in cultires all over the world, and I would hesitiate therefore to conclude that some specific ancestral anecdotes p of other sorts of human people existing in long-past times lies at the root of these. Think there are far simpler ways of accounting for such things [yes, Occam's damned old razor] -- for example stunted growth/dwarfism, can be caused by many factors ranging from genetic to disease to trauma to extreme stress and starvation. Also, every adult was once a child, so tales of a smaller race of human-like beings are not so very surprising, having a deep resonance in the human psyche. Afraid I don't have much regard for human memory when it comes to recalling things like who was last year's ballot, or last week's grocery list, let alone this immense (by human standerds) stetch. HUman beings enjoy hearing/telling tales.
• Not conspicuously shorter, but on average (go back and read the article; male Neanderthals averaged 5'6", male humans 5'9"). I'm not saying there were these little wee pigmy Neanderthals, just shorter and stockier, and this became exaggerated over time, like the stature of the fairies or elves. LaGatta, the height of Homo Sapiens Sapiens is wildly variable, especially when seen over time. Wikipedia has a good entry on this. Neanderthals were taller than the average height of some of the people in certain nations in today's world. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to catch a North Korean and shake him down for his pot of gold. Sweet, sweet gold!
• I didn't remember a Neanderthal in The Bull From The Sea, LaGatta, but if we're looking at literary renditions I must mention William Golding's The Inheritors - very good, but terribly sad.
• I didn't remember a Neanderthal in The Bull From The Sea... "old Handy" (Chiron) and his people. Good sense of smell. I love The Inheritors.
• Ah yes. Probably time I read it again.
• I'm amazed that no one has mentioned Jean Auel's Clan of the Cave Bear series. Good reading (especially if you're in Jr. High), and a goodly number of women have Ms. Auel to thank for all us young lads' knowing how to properly Pleasure a woman. At least, she put us on the right track.
• Hitting them over the head with a club then dragging them to our cave, right? Right...?
• "Jean Auel's..." Hated them.
• Mrs kitfisto reads them, but I am not tempted.
• (as far as I can find out, the extant fragments of Ibn Fadlan himself have nothing to say about "monsters of the mist") Chriton made that part up for his story, but Ibn Fadlan did meet the Rus and observe the funeral. More here.
• Most likely fairies/elves were the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of Europe. There is abundant evidence of "Little People" living "under the hill" in the British Isles. AKA the Tuatha Dé Danaan in Ireland, perhaps.
• Bring back the pygmy mammoth! Here it is: ----/ \---- \ | | / \ \ o o / / \/|\ /|\/ | \ / | | \ \_| | |\_/| oooooooo I made him in my basement using some beakers and a quart of eggnog.
• nd a goodly number of women have Ms. Auel to thank for all us young lads' knowing how to properly Pleasure a woman. At least, she put us on the right track. Really? I've never been able to find a girl's flower. They all seem to be foliage-free.
• You obviously didn't get the Uncut version: Cavemen Gone Wild! (tonight, on a very special Springer).
• StoryBored: Either you stole the ellufunt or your eggnog was fermented
• Rats, i'm busted. It's a copy of the fine little elly on the page cited by Goetter. But it came out all squished when i posted it here. it's like someone dehydrated it and then flattened it with a rolling pin or something. *secretly puts rolling pin behind back*
• Squashed elefant make me sad. Here, I fix.         ----/      \----         \   |      |   /          \  \ o  o /  /           \/|\    /|\/             | \  / |             |  \ \_|             |  |\_/|             oooooooo I reconstituted him with a pint of fine bourbon. Just like new now.
• he looked at everything aslant for he was feeling rather faint against the nearest wall he leaned and shrivelled up, poor elephant but now he's had enough to drink this elefant is in the pink
• Goetter stole the elephant! Get out the torches and pitchforks.
• *rides away on fresh pink elephant, laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing over the field*
• All i have left of the pink elephant is her iron ankle bracelet. That...and the memories.
• Ankhs for the memory! A shackle and a chain, was the elephant's refrain, Then he had a drink, he stayed quite pink despite the tropic rain -- How thirsty he was!
• Aye, elly was a drinker.... Why I be sad elly's gone? I be glad instead: I've found a new pet No name for her yet; A new beginning, With an unsquished penguin. ( o> ///\ \V_/_
• *applauds*
• Neanderthals and modern humans shared a cave.
• we saw he was human no one bothered to make a fuss when he came to live in the cave with us he liked to make tools and knap flints -- he didn't talk much he kept our rules (some thought he was a little dense) he loved hearing our stories and he could use an axe or play a bone flute better than any other galoot if I have any criticism at all it's that when I stand next to our Neanderthal I unvariably feel I am too thin and small
• Neanderthals and modern humans shared a cave. But Neanderthals moved out because we snored.
• 100,000 year old Neanderthal DNA (only a fragment of mitochondrial DNA, it seems) suggests more diversity than expected. And no interbreeding with our ancestors.
• Neanderthal, Neanderthal our lives diverged somewhere far away and long ago before homo sapiens sapiens evolved, emerged what you were like we moderns do not know the surface of the northern world was different then and lay beneath thick layers of glaciers, ice and snow and as for the deeps that separate two kinds of men we haven't really learned to bridge that gap among the living although from time to time we have that yen
• Mammoths to Return? DNA Advances Spur Resurrection Debate
• Neanderthals had red hair.
• Grandad!