June 16, 2005

• Oh c'mon, mj. We need more details than that! Perhaps we could flood this site with your praises. We, at least, are more sentient to your true charm and beauty and wit. Meanwhile please accept a big {{{hug}}} until this is resolved.
• Yep, my Google-fu is clearly lacking, damnit! Hang in there, mj, and remember that there are crazies on most sites, and most people recognize that fact.
• It's hard to advise you without knowing the specifics. I assume that escort work is illegal, or at best quasi-legal, in Canada and that legal remedies to libel are therefore unattractive to you. You might be best served by asking other clients to visit the site and rebut the accusations. I would think that one negative review against a dozen positive would have little effect.
• You said it's a review board, so it's a bunch of people's opinions. It's hard to have a libelous opinion, unless he's describing events that never happened. For example if he were never a customer. In which case it's still just an internet message board; its very common for peope to be lied about or defamed on message boards. It happens all the time. We get kinda spoiled here at Mofi because we hardly ever see it, but it happens. I would expect the operator of the board would have a way for escorts to respond to negative criticisms. That's where I would start.
• mj, as someone who has dealt with this exact situation, I understand and empathize with your anger and frustration. aside from asking the administrator of the forum to remove the review, you have to trust to the body of good (and true!) reviews to present the whole picture. any client worth having will figure out what it means to have one completely at variance with all the others. good luck and try not to let this shit get to you too much!
• bac - I believe that escort services are legal where mj lives, so it appeares to be someone claiming a bad experience.
• Thanks, path. In that case there are certainly legal -- as in involving lawyers -- steps to be taken in response to actual libel. It still may well not be worth going to the trouble to respond to one schmuck on a message board.
• So, if being an escort is legal where you live, I take it this isn't some governmental regulatory body, so there's no formal appeal process. Is there any opportunity for rebuttal? You may want to fight fire with fire. I don't know how much an attorney or the legal system can help you here. Taking on an anonymous poster on a message board sounds like a huge waste of time and energy.
• I'm a bit confused about this...Couldn't you respond directly, saying that you have heard of this negative review and feel it is entirely without merit. Also, if you have any correspondence with regulars, etc, couldn't you possibly ask for a little support by asking, if they felt so inclined, to make their own review on the same board. Maybe you could turn this around to your advantage. DO NOT LET THIS TAKE CONTROL OF YOU. You know the truth, have a little faith. Also, I am totally willing to claim that your a fabulous.....uh, escort.
• Also, aren't there any moderaters on that site? I would think that they would not want any libelous situations coming up and would ask that respondants speak truthfully or risk being banned from the site without some sort of proof of said allegations. I suppose I am being tremendously naive....
• If you have an attorney friend you'd probably have your cause well served with a tersely worded nastygram to the site operator. If it's anonymous you could feasibly demand such things as the IP address of the slander, the removal of the post and imply complicity in the prosecutable slanderous behavior for not complying. Even if there is no backing for such threats in Canada, legal threats do work nicely. An hour or two of a friends time could solve your problem and all you'd be out is a nice dinner or a "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" favor. Thankfully I have such a friend. I do design and tech for her, she does legal stuff for me. We've served each other well for years. Everyone should have a legal friend...except of course those folks we need to go against.
• Word.
• This is no doubt the wrong place for this, but noticing that there are two sexworkers (and probby lots more?) here, I'd like to say that I'm really pleased to have my pre-MoFi conceptions rattled, and pathetic stereotypes dissolved.
• Wait a second fish tick, some of us aren't professionals, but consider it an avocation. I don't do it for the money... Let's just say, I'm a giver.
• Hey, squid, whatabout my down payment, HUH???
• I can't charge... I've given away too many "free samples."
• Cynn, you know I work locally. You come to LA and we'll do a full service on you... Gap your plugs, rotate your tires, lube your joints, you pick the metaphore...
• Moneyjane, I'd suggest that the first thing you should try to do is convince yourself that you're better than this guy (you are, and we all know it), and that this moment of big stress will pass, like other moments of big stress you've experienced. (You know all this already, I know, but hopefully hearing it from someone else has value.) Another suggestion: Get other clients to post positive reviews on the same site. It's worked for my author friends who've gotten bad Amazon reviews. The thing about these sites is they let every fucking bozo with a computer post whatever they want. (Wait a minute, that also describes . . . .)
• This stinks, mj.... I don't really have much advice, except to second that of not letting this guy control your reaction -- it's obviously what he wants to do, and it's abusive. Also, if you want people to leave good remarks about you, or throwdown with this guy, I can have your back.
• Shit moneyjane, I just did a websearch using all kinds of keywords (vancouver, escort, review, etc...) in all kinds of variations and frankly, I don't think you have too much to worry about. All the webpages I came up with were kind of a cluster-fuck. Do you really think that you'll get a downturn in business from one bad review? I really doubt it.
• As it happens, the EFF just put up their Legal Guide for Bloggers which explains defamation and libel in clear language. Obviously written primarily for the US, but the American legal system is very similar to Canada's, and the UK's (Canada's other parent) is even stricter when it comes to libel (IANAL...obviously). It seems to read pretty clearly that false written statements presented as fact are clear libel. I'd have to agree though that unless the person's identity is readily found, and they have some assets worth your pain, it's best to shrug and forget about it. And that might be best for your mind and spirit even if they're crazy rich.
• Moneyjane, I'm sorry. That really sucks. From my experience, you have two options, depending on what kind of board it is: 1. Damage control. Wait until you feel strong enough to deal with the problem sanely. Post a calm, reasonable, factual, even-handed reply to the effect that "This is not true." Anyone who's ever read a message board is familiar with the high "squirrelly nutbag" factor. What you want to do is tell them "this guy is a squirrelly nutbag, don't listen to him," but NOT directly. As a plus, responding rationally and factually will make you look really good. Think of your response as being an example of your ability to handle your end of a bad situation with grace and tact. However, this particular message board may not be the place for this sort of thing. (Without a link, I'm unable to tell.) The classic example is eBay's feedback system, which allows for a seller to respond to a buyer's bad (i.e. squirrelly nutbag) feedback. Say someone leaves you feedback lke "NEVER SHIPPED DON'T BUY FROM THIS EBAYER THEY ARE TEH SUXOR!!!11" You would respond with something like "Contacted buyer 3 times to let them know I would be happy to refund their money; send my email, phone number, and address; received no response." Future readers see that you are a reasonable, rational person, and understand that the other guy was yet another squirrelly nutbag. On the other side, there are places online where it is not considered appropriate to post feedback on feedback. For example, it is not considered appropriate for an author to respond to a bad review by a reader. No way, no how. If you're a writer, and you get a bad review on Amazon, you suck it up and move on. Doing anything else will make people hate you forever. If your forum is this sort of situation, then your ONE AND ONLY option is to ignore the bad review. It hurts, it stinks, and the person who did it deserves to be kicked in the face, but there is literally nothing you can do but try to forget about it. I have a lot of experience with these sorts of situations, and I write for a living. I would be more than happy to help you out. My email address is in my profile. Good luck, and best wishes! - Erika
• I have no advice, but I am very fond of our moneyjane. I hope everything turns out okay.
• Well, I did the "will be looking into my legal options" thing in an email to the Uber-mod, and he took it down; mind you, I talked to him just two weeks ago about the same thing from the same poster, and since it was taken down, the same dink has started two more posts. I never had a session with this prick, and he's telling my potential clients that I was in my mid-forties when he saw me "years ago". That's a business killer in Escortlandia. If I go on and post - which is what asshat is trying to goad me into - it'll make it worse, and he'll attack anyone who stands up for me using it as a platform to repeat all this crap ad nauseum. This board is supposed to adhere to a no-review policy if requested - which I had - namely any review good or bad will be removed if you want no reviews. The review I got was from a client I knew I'd seen, and actually very positive; but this cock insisted on telling my client that he 'knew' I was well into my forties. My client, totally bewildered, said he really didn't think so, (not surprising given this guy had actually seen me) and Cockboy started arguing with him about it. What a goddamn tool. I am in the process of negotiating a deal where I would be paid a juicy and much needed retainer for my services on a monthly basis; if this fucks this deal I will be very, very, very angry. I don't want the kind of scumbags that frequent this particular board as clients; in fact I will not even see anyone from the city this board serves. Unfortunately, out-of-town clients check this board to get an idea of what the local ladies are like. So yeah, frustrating as hell. I think you're right though, about trying to do anything about it legally. Thanks everybody. I'm feeling much better knowing Los Monos got my back. *Sigh* Why, oh why, did I not pay more attention in Hacking class?
• ...the American legal system is very similar to Canada's, and the UK's (Canada's other parent)... Ack!!!
• the American legal system is very similar to Canada's, and the UK's (Canada's other parent). Ack, indeed! Since when did being refugees from violent rebellion make that rebel ones' "parent"? The early English Canadians left before the US was the US, thank you very much. Unless you meant France, of course, which would be right to say - French law continues to be very important in Quebec. But it would be best to say that there are four mainstrands to Canadian cultural origin - Native, French, British (English, Welsh, Irish and especially Scottish) and Immigration from the rest of the World.
• Hope everything turns out ok, mj.
• i don't think this will kill your deal, mj. obviously whoever wants you on retainer is familiar with the real you. i'm just curious as all hell why this creep has some kind of vendetta against you. hang in there. many kisses and bananas.
• I never had a session with this prick, and he's telling my potential clients that I was in my mid-forties when he saw me "years ago". What the hell does this guy have against you? Is he just a random prick that decided to mess with you? Has he gone after any other reviews on this board in similar fashion? Corn-fuses the hell out of me. Sounds like a bastard that will succumb to his own haphazard ways...
• He probably put up loads of nonsense elsewhere about other people as well, and plowed in on this one because he actually got a response from mj's real client. Attention whore is my guess. Dipshits like that exist everywhere, unfortunately. Best of luck for your deal, mj. If your client has the sense that $DEITY gave a gnat, he'll know this idiot is just full of it.
• OK, here's what I can remember from law school. Libel is any method of defamation expressed by print, writing, pictures or signs. Defamation is an intentional false communication, either published or publicly spoken, that injures another's reputation or good name. So do we have libel? Yes. A false communication presented as true, injuring your business relationships. That it was a public statement on a website rather than in print shouldn't matter too much. Now. Where does that get you? Proving libel is a tricky business. You have establish what the truth actually IS. Your age should be a simple matter (or as simple as it could be given the fact that you're not working under your real name). That you never provided services for this guy is not as easy to prove. That would depend on the specifics of your situation. Let's say that all that is proven, that you've demonstrated that it's all lies. In order to establish libel per se, you would need to show that those statements caused you to suffer a loss to your reputation (i.e. your earning power). You would need to show that you lost such-and-such a job BECAUSE of that false statement. This is very, very hard to do. (Unless you're Conrad Black or the Church of Scientology, it seems, but that's where the bags of money come into play.) So, mj, I think you may be out of luck with a libel suit as such, because of that second part. The best option is to demonstrate to the message board people that those statements are indeed false (which you're already doing), and try to get the guy banninated. Which isn't to say that you can't swing the threat of a libel suit around. Sure, there's the poster himself, but it would be more effective weapon against the host. Remind them that repeating libel is in itself a libel. Suggest that it would clearly be in their best interests not to be a co-defendant in your suit. It may be worth your while to hire a lawyer -- not for a libel suit -- but just to send off a warning letter. A letter from a lawyer shows you're serious. It may cost you an hour for their time, but in the end, it'll save you a lot of grief and wasted effort. Best of luck! We love you!
• "Libel on the Internet: An International Problem" note that's from 1996. the problem is, i believe, case law is still being made. the basics from capt. renault apply to traditional print media... The Internets is a whole other ball game. any communications law monkeys out there?
• The problem with internets-based libel has largely to do with jurisdiction -- where incidents happen that are international in nature. More of a conflicts of law question than anything else. Here, the plaintiff is in Canada, the defendant is in Canada, and the host/server is in Canada. The issue of conflicts wouldn't be any more of a problem than any other regular intra-provincial lawsuit. That being said, the other problem with internets-based libel is attribution -- tracing a specific quote to a specific individual. But even this is just an evidentiary matter. So with all other things being the same as a more orthodox Canadian libel suit, the forum of publication wouldn't matter all that much. If anything, it would affect damages, in that the potential audience is quite different than that of, say, the Globe and Mail. But then again, I'm just a GP lawyer. Not a communications law guy. So I could be wrong.
• Ack, indeed! Since when did being refugees from violent rebellion make that rebel ones' "parent"? The early English Canadians left before the US was the US, thank you very much So much for throw away comments. My layperson's understanding is that Canada's legal system is influenced primarily (as far as such influence extends) by the U.S. and British systems. I deliberately did not include France as that the Napoleonic Code only applies in Quebec, so it didn't seem relevant in this case. That is the context in which my comment was meant.
• Here's an opinion about why the nasty poster is being so nasty. Some people enjoy the power they get through this sort of exchange and apparently must get their jollies this way. I know of a frequently recurring hostile exchange between several folks in an AOL music folder related to jazz. One of the regular posters was an ecdysiast in LA in the late 70s-early 80s. Another poster, former lurker, posts his lurid ramblings accusing her of picking up diseases from working the docks. This starts her ranting (justified) but mostly just serves to feed the troll. I do appreciate that the difference here affects mj's livelihood, where in the other case affects only how one person may be viewed in light of another's aspersions. I think that there has been some decent advice and support expressed for mj, and I hope for a day when people can enjoy their sexual predilections without seeking to negatively impact on others (unless they enjoy it...)
• mj, what about simply trying some devasting wit and humour, which you are so wickedly good and famed for. Perhaps a demure thank you for the compliment as you are really seventy-two years old and never dreamed you could really be mistaken for being so young. A withering, Miss Manners-type proclamation that devastes the foe while showing one's own superiority.
• moneyjane, just as an aside, your exploits are virtually unbelievable. Too much life in too short of time.
• Cripes. There's an Escort Review board? Anywaze ...in Canada, prostitution per sé isn't illegal. However, soliciting for prostitution, or living off the avails of prostitution, is. This makes the recovery of financial damages in this employment sector problemtic, to put it mildly. Its contradictory, but what about the Victorian English wasn't?
• MJ, whatever happens, please do keep us posted. You're much-admired 'round these parts.
• Well...I've got the site owner on my side now, and he's taking a run at Dipshit Man, so that's very good. Ahhhh...backstory...it's a beaut. When I first started in this Biz two years ago someone whom I believe is this very same fellow gave me a career-killing review on a North America wide review board - TER. A client told me about it, and that it was also being tossed around on this same local board. I found the guy there and told him he had the wrong person, because I knew I hadn't seen him because this session, as he described it, could not have happened. I challenged him to tell me some details about the location he'd "seen" me in, and he threatened me behind the scenes, telling me to drop it or else, and publicly refused to answer my question while still talking shit. This went on for months. My business took a huge hit. On a hunch I posted in Mandarin, telling him he was full of shit and had no balls, and he then named a location. Which, naturally, was completely wrong. He was, at that time sabotaging any good reviews by people I'd actually seen by using them as a platform to argue with my clients, telling them they had to be wrong because I was, "fat, had a pimp, way older, and strung out on crack". Yay. So then I had to tell what few clients I was getting to not post any real reviews anymore, so not to give this miserable fuckwit a target. My take on it is this; I think he initially was simply mistaken - he'd seen another girl and confused her with me. He had claimed to have seen me 'years before' under a different name; yet at the point he claimed to have seen me I'd been in the business only four months. But he was the kind of guy whose insecurity was such that he could not be seen losing face, and so decided taking me out was preferable. I had to go work for a madam for awhile. I went into this to be independent, yet was going to miss my rent because my business was going so badly. I went indie again as soon as I could, did a deal with a credit company to do payments on the debts I could no longer pay, and then, this past December finally threw in the towel and declared bankruptcy. Not pleasant. I've only been seeing out-of-town clients, and doing only outcall since that first tangle, because since I'd never met this tool, he could book with me any time he wanted and show up at my door, and I wouldn't have known who he was. That really cut into my income potential. Between that and having no local reviews, my business has never recovered, and now, with the American dollar falling so much, my American clients are spending far less. As you may imagine, I really, really, really hate this prick. It's been two fucking years of this. I stopped playing nicely about a year or so ago, when I discovered the best weapon was diversion rather than direct confrontation - any time the topic came up, I'd drop a completely unrelated info bomb that would take people's attention elsewhere. Hooray for proxies! Then I went underground, telling people I was going overseas. I've spent the last year in hiding, and changed my haircolour and working name. I had to totally start over again. I lost an entire year of my life. He's recently figured out my new name, and that's the name he's going after now. It's quite funny that I've learned so much about destructive behaviour from this guy that I've got the skills and technical knowledge to make his life fairly miserable online if I really wanted to. But I prefer to not stew in the negativity that would come with that, and only do maintenance, like getting his shit removed. But, of course, that only pisses him off. Ah well. So it goes. Karma will eventually hand him his ass in a bag. Man...what I wouldn't give for five minutes with him to help Karma out just a little.
• Man...what I wouldn't give for five minutes with him to help Karma out just a little. If that day ever comes, mj, here's my hammer. Use it wisely. Don't bother to wipe the bloodstains off, they'll be marks of honour.
• Alnedra, that's the hottest thing I've ever seen here on MoFi. 'Fraid I got nothing. Best of luck, obviously. Hang in there!
• Given what you've said, couldn't you go after this guy via a stalking law?
• ..I believe is this very same fellow gave me a career-killing review on a North America wide review board I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to this sort of thing, but wouldn't the best way to combat that be to get people who really have met you to write positive reviews? Surely if there are a dozen positive reviews and only one negative, no matter how negative that review is it will be obvious that it's a fake? Films, books, and songs get good and bad reviews all the time which is why you have to just find somebody whose review of past materials matches your own and view their reviews of things you are thinking about reading or seeing. Wouldn't the same hold true here? Seems to me you should just coach people who do write positive reviews that there's some psycho troll and the best way to reply to him is 'Hey, I know what I saw last month/week, and it was nothing like what you describe?' On the hacking/making life miserable front.. Do you know the guy's name? Not working at Burger King, the law may not be as helpful to you but there must be other ways of persuasion? Maybe meet the guy face to face in a very public place and say 'See, we haven't met'? Sounds like a really shitty situation for you, but there are definitely ways out.
• but wouldn't the best way to combat that be to get people who really have met you to write positive reviews? True...but asking people to post reviews is not looked on favourably at all; it's seen as something a client needs to decide for himself. Seems to me you should just coach people who do write positive reviews that there's some psycho troll and the best way to reply to him is 'Hey, I know what I saw last month/week, and it was nothing like what you describe?' If these guys were new to the board, he'd label them "shills"; if they were known, he'd still use their review as a platform to endlessly repeat all his shit so that it would always end up as far more negative than positive. Also, this guy was running a number of handles, so 'other guys' would validate his crap. Maybe meet the guy face to face in a very public place and say 'See, we haven't met'? Tried that too; he refused to meet with me, even when an impartial board member offered to mediate. Why? Because the third party would see him not recognise me, and I'd also be able to ask him questions he'd be unable to answer. The psychology behind his behaviour I believe runs something like this; She has publicly called me on a lie. This cannot be tolerated; and under no condition will I afford her any opportunity to prove it. I will take care of my ego by forcing her out of business, and any friend of hers is an enemy of mine and should be attacked at every opportunity. In a business like mine, there is a lot of choice as to with whom somebody will choose to spend their money, and negative mention of your name is cumulative. Usually potential clients don't have either the time or inclination to try and figure out what's going on; they simply file you as "bad" in their mental Rollodex and never call. And I'll swing the Hammer with pride singing the Battle Song of The Monkeys - but somebody has to write one first :) Also, I don't know his name; this guy has done this kind of thing to other girls, and he knows a few people would be showing up at his doorstep if that info ever got out. Some of the other women looked into what kind of charges could be laid, and basically, in the slippery world of the internet, nothing much was feasible. I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing; every time he pops up, I'll get him taken down from behind the scenes via the board owner. Kind of like Whack-a-Mole. PS...you guys are the best!
• I wish we could collectively do something to help, moneyjane. I had thought that perhaps several monkeys could join the forum and subject the spineless bastard to a campaign of incessant mockery until he gives up. But, as you say, it would probably just fan his flames. Anyhow, if you ever need a hand swingin' that big ole hammer or doing a little late-night door knocking, I'm just a ferry ride away.
• Man, sometimes I don't know why people do what they do. That guy is a stinky stink butt, and deserves to be hit with Alnedra's mighty hammer. If you ever think of anything for us monkeys to do, let us know and we'll spring into action.
• I have sweet visions of Buddy fleeing from the Flying Monkey Army, Hammer Division. If I ever do meet him, I'm going to wind up and give him the 850 pound mother of all Daffy Duck Slaps. I tried to find an image of a Daffy Slap, but couldn't find nary a one!
• You may have to settle for a mighty bitch slap, moneyjane.
• intense... keep us up to date here
• I shall, indeed. Some days I really want to be Vic Mackie. *Scary sexy beast from The Shield.
• Heh...update time. I have mocked the shit out of my nemesis on my business website. Turned out his hideous bullshit review was sending the curious to my site, which I capitalized on by burning his ass with gusto, including an entire page consisting of photographic refutation of his spurious claims, and me giving him the finger buck nekkid, shielded only by Wired's June issue, used, naturally, to establish said photos as exceedingly current. Amazing how many dudes that like Wired also dig nekkid chicks...that bitch-ass cracker ended up sending me a lot of business. It's good to be queen.
• All hail Queen Moneyjane The First! Heehee. I like the Wired issue bit. You think you might get more geek/nerd customers with that picture?
• Good on ya, mj.
• So that ranks as one of the hottest callouts ever.
• Every time this thread is bumped, I flash on the cross-country crime spree. Brava, moneyjane.
• I hate you, lucky Steven Spielberg bastard, you. :) You think you might get more geek/nerd customers with that picture? I bet MJ could fill that niche, oh yes.
• Jesus, the "geek fantasies" site is the funniest thing I've seen in a while. Nice, flagpole.