March 13, 2005

• I'm not really surprised that so many doctors were part of the Nazi Party. Other than the reasons given in the article, people who becomes doctors are usually extremely confident - even arrogant. They have to be, to make decisions every day that might kill or heal patients. So the whole Nazi philosophy, I suspect, would sound very sensible and attractive to doctors at that time. I say this as a person who admire doctors, and has them for friends and relatives. I don't think the arrogance makes them evil, but makes it possible for them to continue practicing. I firmly believe that all male OB/GYN should regularly have cold metal equipment pressed to their balls to remind them of what their patients have to go through.
• Cassette tapes evoved directly from Stolen Nazi technology, Computers aswell came from that. The americans benifited substantialy from the Nazi's and not just from the sale of crematoriums. Whats this about doctors?
• Oh hey look, gas prices are up again. Someone get me a gun.
• Don't mention the Volkswagon.
• And don't mention the US space program of the 50s-70s. Wernher Von Braun ring a bell? I think it's pretty clear that all of these advancements have less to do with the Nazi party's philosophy, and much more to do with the fact that Germany was right up at or near the top of the technological/scientific list from around 1900.
• The Volksvagon? Oh christ, that's at the top of my list for boycotted beepin' products. And I always wanted a Quattro. Excellent programmes though, Volksvagon, Autobhan, Rocket development etc. S'damn shame. Eh, what was that about religion & politics?
• Oh yeah...thank God for plastic! Actually, to be a stickler, a Nazi Party doctor invented the colposcope in the camps, which is a large electric microscope used to more closely examine your vagina and cervix after an abnormal pap smear. George Nicolas Papanicolaou invented the pap smear technique in the 1920's.
• Considering the topic, the father of the internet is of course the American Army. Well, civilization hasn't changed (and won't) since Roman times. Conquest, pilage, adopt etc. What the hell, "in for a penny in for a pound".
• Nazi doctors are a very interesting topic - we've benefited for ages from, for example, Nazi hypothermia research. There are, though, pretty compelling reasons to not use Nazi research. Check this out.
• The Volkswagen had everything to do with Nazi party philosophy. They developed it as a socialist policy to make a car every citizen can afford, thus helping drive the economy (which was in a shambles at the time).
• Moneyjane-- thats a very interesting link. I had trouble answering the question, b/c it says "doctors and scientists" - the closest I can come to an asnwer is that if doctors can use the data to save lives, they have to. But scientists shouldnt use it to support new experiments or cite it in journals, etc I did notice that as you answer "yes" the anti- arguments it returns get very weak, relying on emotional manipulation rather than logic, e.g. "what if a member of your family had been in the camps?"
• (the second link is the one I'm referring to)
• Members of my family were in concentration camps, but to ignore knowledge gained in a specific geographic area during a specific time is silly and ultimately impossible: we will not, as a species, to be able to unlearn things in the information age. The only way for us to unlearn is through cataclysm, the wholesale or nearly complete death of the species. Not using knowledge gained is possible, but I'm not fully in agreement with the ethics. As individuals, we learn from good and bad experiences, from errors and from the results of even our worst intended acts. The same goes for us as a society or a species.
• Good link moneyjane. I think the third and fourth arguments against using the data are the strongest. (These basically say that we justify the torture by using the results). There's always some ethically weak people in power, and these types would be incouraged to perform the same kind of bullshit. But I'm also a believer that information will always find a way to free itself. Truth is a virus, and knowledge cannot be unlearned. It's a tough issue.
• Alnedra: If doctors laboured under the same rules as the police and teachers, the choice would have been more along the lines of, "Join the party or quit medicine." Crackpot: I hope your moral concerns in boycotting VW extends to other supporters of and suppliers to the Third Reich such as GM, Ford, and IBM. I'm inclined to feel that - given this information was gained - we may as well use it. Throwing it away seems to me to almost be adding insult to injury: not only will you suffer the tyranny of the Nazis, we say, but we'll refuse to take whatever benefits we may. The dead can't recieve comfort, but their may be some for their relatives and other survivors in knowing that the outcome of those experiments saves lives. (And we can't get too uppity about it. Australia, the US, and UK all conducted experiments on their people, post-WW II, with chemical and nuclear weapons, as I've mentioned in the past).
• But Rodgerd, those are American, And Ford is God, or is it good? We must use it of course. Cyclical pattern yes? The natives in South America, Mayans etcetera, then the Jews and gypsies, now the blacks, what the hell right? History or something.
• What horror those poor people had to endure. The world should weep and never forget. They should never have died for this information that we now use, but since they did, can't we use this data and honor their sacrifice by saving others?
• They developed it as a socialist policy to make a car every citizen can afford, thus helping drive the economy (which was in a shambles at the time). Now I don't think that necessarily comes from a portion of the philosophy which is peculiar to Nazism. Sounds like one of the more pragmatic (hence, counter to many things the Nazis did) things that any government should consider.
• Now I don't think that necessarily comes from a portion of the philosophy which is peculiar to Nazism. They were the National Socialist Workers' Party.
• Thank you gor those links, moneyjane. Unethical human experimentation is still a recent memory, especially those using LSD, combined with other techniques, sponsered by the CIA, as shown here in wiki. I had a psychiatrist once who had been a victim of this in Canada. She was quite wacko and I got away from her ASAP.
• Not to derail this thread, but this is an interesting document about Porsche, Volkswagen and slave labor in Nazi Germany.
• I think "pap smear" would be a good username. what? the thread's so Godwinned it can't . hey quit pushing . .
• I remember Ol' Pap Smear. Best damn banjo picker this side of the Ozarks.
• chimaera: much more to do with the fact that Germany was right up at or near the top of the technological/scientific list from around 1900. And the Nazis poured huge amounts of money into basic research. Much of the research was for bad ends but the basic knowledge and spin offs are still there.
• Papshmir
• Rocket- Yes, they were. But to alledge that they were socialist is to radically misunderstand socialism, Nazism and totalitarianism.
• They definitely had some socialist policies, especially in the early years, which helped them recover from the disastrous economy caused by the Treaty of Versaille and the worldwide depression. They weren't socialist by today's standards, but what else would you call a centralized government that creates jobs with massive infrastructure investment?
• Pap smear? That sounds bloody Italian to me.
• we will not, as a species, to be able to unlearn things in the information age. The only way for us to unlearn is through cataclysm, the wholesale or nearly complete death of the species. "Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish." -- William Carlos Williams, The Orchestra (I think he was quoting Russell... that's Bertrand, not Nipsey)
• I wonder such myself, the _bone, as I look at what is happening, as humanity learns; and learns how to do, and then how costs to humanity and earth are accumulating. That and those who are not part of the machine are fodder for it. Or waste product. It is one thing to trace a progression from such barbarism as the holocaust to mentioned benefits in science and technology. But it is the current coming together of science and technology, with corporisation and globalisation, combined with greed and totalistic idealism that alarms me. Not easy bed-partners, and when we consider the fodder in such places as Africa and the rainforests. Then it seems we are living in a derivative world of what we scorn. And my descendents will quickly become fodder. IMO.
• Dx: Word, girl. You said it.
• Thanks, GranMa. I only wish that it wasn't our generation that has brought us to such a state. That is the worst insult of all, again IMO.
• Pap Smears at Walgreens