February 16, 2005

• As I've said elsewhere, I think everyone in the world needs to stop being offended over anything at all. Sticks and stones, people.
• There is a short list of names that are going to offend someone. If you know they are that offensive to some people, then they are probably not worth using. Certainly, fag, nigger, rape, cunt, kike, wop, spear-chucker, darkie, towel-head, slant-eyed motherfucker, Vancouver-whore, fat-fuck, and camel-jockey are terms we can all agree on.
• (primarily to aeonite): Or one could try to be a little more polite, and treat everyone else online courteously? Imagine you are at a tea-party with them. If you wouldn't say it when reaching for the scones and jam,* or maybe the beer bottle, don't say it online. *I do realise the online-gaming is a little more rambunctious than weblogs, and there is more competitiveness. Then I would simply try to stick to gauging the community - I personally would use "frelled" rather than "raped", but that's just because I'm really into Farscape right now. Or you could go all OED on them, and bring out words like "obliterate, abate, abolish, abrogate, blot out, crush, decimate, demolish, eradicate, erase, expunge, exterminate, extinguish, extirpate, finish off, invalidate, liquidate, massacre, murder, negate, nullify, obliterate, quash, quell, raze, ruin, slaughter, take out, undo, vitiate (ooh latinate), wipe out, wrack, wreck..."
• "Without realizing I was being offensive" you used the term "fag"? You need to recalibrate your meter.
• Unless you are British and were asking for a cigarrette. Or were carrying a large bundle of sticks.
• Well.. it's so prevalent in on-line gaming, you hear it so often, you don't even realize you're using it. That's what I meant by that...
• bernockle - I've always thought that porch-monkey was a hideously offensive term. But maybe that's me.
• One wonders the correct form when asking a cigarette of a drag queen carrying a large bundle of sticks. Actually, he'd just give you the smoke, have you light his, and then make you carry the sticks. Never mind.
• Adhering to etiquette and being insulted are two different things. Certainly if someone says your tea "fucking sucks" at the tea party you'd be right and proper to think they were being crass, and even to feel that they were lacking in class. However, to take personal insult to someone's comment is just silly, IMHO. Simply because you call me a name doesn't mean I am what you say. Your comment says nothing about me. It says something about you. And this is why I don't get offended at much of anything at all. Also, one has to consider the audience. I have gay and lesbian friends now that I live in San Francisco, and they use the terms "fag" and "dyke" to refer to one another in the same way that some blacks will call each other "nigga". My point is not that you should wander into Harlem shouting "nigger" or into the Castro shouting "faggot", only that I think people, as a whole, should concentrate on evolving to the point where if you did that, they wouldn't be horribly morally offended, but would instead think that you were perhaps just a dick.
• I was once playing counter strike and called my friend Emir a sand nigger.
• He makes awesome chai, and I'm not even making this up.
• Maybe it'll be like not saying 'fuck' in front of Grandma; they'll be online and offline usages of some words.
• Monkeyfilter: Not saying "fuck" in front of Grandma Or GramMa, even.
• This reminds me of this piece from NPR, which is about the fact that in Cuba, everyone has a nickname, like "big nose" or "fat head", things that would be HORRIBLY OFFENSIVE to Americans but are just part of life in Cuba. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4492754
• I think people should be more polite and develop thicker skins. With acquaintances, you should lean towards politeness. With friends, you should lean towards having a thicker skin. If they're really a friend, they should be able to understand that the comment was not one made in a hurting way, but it was made either to be a bit of imagery or to add some humorous element to the conversation, or perhaps a bit of both. Certain situations, such as online gaming, leans toward a less formal atmosphere, such as a drinking establishment might have, and it's to be expected that conversation will be less controlled, if for no other reason than because you have a bunch of 14-year-olds who are fairly certain that they're in an arena where their parents will never catch then trying out their command of the more metaphorical forms of the english language. Also, again, context is important. As jb points out, fag means something else in different parts of the world. Same with online gaming. In online gaming, it means 'loser'. If you are going to insist on providing your own connotation to it, then you're going to be offended by someone or another. By the same token, I would personally hope that any conversation that results from "Hey, I'm gay and I find that offensive," could be ended by saying, "I didn't mean it in the gay way," or similar, and moving on. If you really did mean to be offensive, you would probably end the conversation with an, "OMG you're a fag?!!???11?! WTF" and then put him on your ignore list or devote far too much time to trying to make his life miserable. Since it's not, it really should be inferred that you're not making a value judgment on him or his lifestyle so much as you're using a context-appropriate word.
• Yep. Our perspective is not the very last word on the universal question, "How do I be myself and yet not get the crap kicked out of me on a regular basis?".
• It's funny, I play online games and have never called anyone a 'fag' - nor been called one. It always strikes me as something 12 year olds call each other because they don't really know what it means.
• I think people should be more polite and develop thicker skins. You mean...they should grow up? I don't think that's an option.
• The way I see it, to call someone a "fag" is reinforcing the conception that to be gay is bad. Now, whether one thinks homosexuality is right or wrong, I would think we could agree that we could understand why someone who is gay doesn't like the word "fag" or "gay" having a negative connotation. While "rape" is probably not the most sensitive term, I don't think it is something I would say, I do think it is in a different category. "Rape" is a negative thing, it is an act of violence, therefore to use it metaphorically does not distort the meaning of the word. While it may trivialize "rape," it does not give it a connotation that the word did not already have. That being said, I try to be sensitive around my friends. One of my close friends had a sister commit suicide, so I not to say things like "I could just kill myself" around her. In summary, while I don't think either of them are the most sensitive thing to say, to say "they really raped us" is to use the term metaphorically and keep the standard meaning more or less, while calling someone a "fag" is to use a term for homosexuality which implies that homosexuality is a negative thing. So unless you think that being gay is a bad thing, don't call people names like it is. If you want to use metaphors that involve rape, then use your best judgement if the context is appropriate.
• One of my close friends had a sister commit suicide, so I not to say things like "I could just kill myself" around her. (Anecdote follows on a lighter note:) Or if you had, say, a job interview as accounts manager for a group of churches, don't think aloud about the answer to a question by prefacing said answer with "Oh, God..." Not that I'd know. But yes, a time and place for everything, thicker skin, more polite, all those things.
• Context is everything. "That fag is hoarding weapons and hiding" is not neccessarily offensive. "Let's beat the crap out of that homosexual guy" is.
• Debaser: That fag is hoarding weapons. Friend: Dude, I _am_ a fag!!!!1! Debaser: LOL. Sorry. Friend: No prob. If the conversation departed from this script in any way, your friend is not only a fag but also a whiny bitch.
• *smacks Mackerel* I'll get you yet, you whippersnapper!!!! Just show up on #mofirc and I'll teach you some manners!!! *sharpens fish knife*
• "Without realizing I was being offensive" you used the term "fag"? You need to recalibrate your meter. I'm going to do the unthinkable. I'm going to... disagree with Languagehat... on a point of linguistics. (I'm a bit scared.) I am gay. Well, I'm bisexual, but I definitely identify as "not as other boys", so for the purpose of this conversation I'll assume myself to be "the other", as far as it goes. I use supposedly anti-gay slang all the time. I will (sometimes, not regularly) say that things are "gay" if the thing I'm talking about exists in a deeply masculine field of existence, and I think it fails to live up to its promise. So, computer games. Other computer games players (I'm not a player myself, but an enthusiastic spectator, which puts me on whole new levels of sad). Sports. And so on. "You are such a massive poof." --- "That dude you just fragged, I strongly suspect he sucks cocks." --- "Martin Jol has totally raped Forest up the bumhole by buying Andy Reid and Michael Dawson." etc. Now, my point here isn't to defend such language in anonymous situations, per se. But it is simply to suggest that this whole intarweb bollocks creates situations with which we're not yet fully prepared to contend. The problem is one of register (yes, here it comes, my most commonly linked to article ever... Danny O'Brien on 'registers' on the web...) We keep talking as though we're in private, because that's the feeling this kind of communication engenders. But the things we say in private, we could never defend elsewhere. Because, no matter how innocent we may be of malicious intent, we weren't prepared for the context in which others would view our comments. Yet, here we are, publishing them for all the world to see. People are being fired for this... supposedly. So we have to come up with a new register to talk in, one in which we have all the confidentiality and referentiality and easy acceptance of a private conversation, but the non-offensive nature of public conversation. But we haven't done that yet - we're getting there, by a slow, painful evolution that counts its progress in tears and regret - and until we get there... What, I'm saying, and where I disagree with the 'Hat, is that the empahsis is not on 'the person who said the thing which is taboo in public' to recalibrate their meter. It's up to all of us, as both the sayers and the listeners, to recalibrate together. ...And until we get there, let's just ease off the things we might think could potentially be offensive - because that's just basic politeness, surely - and equally, just ease of the taking offense and getting irate because of percieved insults that may have no malicious intent in the context they were born in. That also, I feel, is an equal impoliteness. Basically, as I belive wiser and cooler men than me said, "Be excellent to each other... And party!".
• fag means something else in different parts of the world. Same with online gaming. In online gaming, it means 'loser'. Perhaps I need to start playing games online and reframe the word fag, to turn it into a positive. Some possibilities: "Dude, watch yrself or I'm totally gunna fag you up." "Whoa, the move was totally fagtastic!" "Out of my way or I'll fag you a new one!"
• Why, yes, I have drunk two bottles of wine tonight! Thankyou for asking...
• I think jccalhoun nailed, only it's perfectly possible to be straight and get annoyed by the use of 'fag' and 'gay' as negatives. It bugs me to no end, usually because the people who say it are homophobic assholes. It seems to be almost a reflex for them. I have less trouble with 'rape' for the reasons jccalhoun mentioned, although I can't see myself saying it.
• *nailed it
• Without realizing I was being offensive...I daresay, this is an oxymoron. If you don't realize you're being offensive then you're not really being offensive. The other person might FEEL offended (see earlier for my opinions on this) but that's not your problem, is it?
• flash - dude, you like disagreed with the Hat! Wooo shit! I know you didn't! Oh lord! *ahem* While supporting rocket's excellent point that context is all, I do agree that if 'fag' is still a jokey putdown, it's just a matter of time until it isn't. That is, unless you finish business school, get a friend's dad to hire you into their company/law firm, marry a blonde socialite, buy a house you can't afford with matching SUV and vote for Bush's relatives in perpetuity. That is to say, if you never feel pain or consider the meaning of life more than the span of a feature-length movie. $0.02 though. you pansy ass liberal mick! aeonite, that's a red herring. you know "fag" is offensive, that's why you're using it . . um . . or whoever.
• wow.... flashboy just blew my mind with his post... alot of what you stated was in my friend's b/f's statements, but I like it seconded.
• Nice try, flashboy, but you'll have to work a lot harder than that to disagree with the Hat. And until we get there, let's just ease off the things we might think could potentially be offensive - because that's just basic politeness, surely Well, yeah. That's exactly what I say. So we're not disagreeing, as far as I can see. Look, my brother is gay (or "a big fag," as he'd say). He uses "fag," "queer," &c &c all the time, and good for him, and for you. But I don't think he's entirely comfortable with straight people appropriating those terms and using them for their own purposes; if you are, that's fine, but obviously lots of people aren't, and so basic politeness suggests that random gamers shouldn't be tossing them around. Now, this shows a frightening degree of detachment from reality, if you ask me: I would personally hope that any conversation that results from "Hey, I'm gay and I find that offensive," could be ended by saying, "I didn't mean it in the gay way" Right, and similarly any conversation that results from "Hey, I'm black and I find that offensive," could be ended by saying, "I didn't mean 'nigger' in the black way." In a pig's eye.
• I'm not personally a fan of using "fag" or "gay" as a diminutive. Whilst I disagree with it on a moral level, I am not so amused by the perjorative connotations of the words as they pertain to people in a society that is still, by and large, at least internally, opposed to homosexuality. It seems to me that it is a cut aimed at a person, rather than their behaviour, even if its intent is directly related to the way they are acting ("Dude, don't be such a gay!"). What it's really saying, IMHO, is that gays are sub-par people whose value lies in being the target of gamers' insults. I also find "rape" to be an extreme word, one I normally try not to use out of context. The few times I have used it elsewhere, I felt weird and oddly out of sync. Just my two cents.
• So let's say that someone is overweight, and another person sarcastically says something about overweight people. Are they right to be offended, if the person making the comment never intended to be offensive?
• I bow to the Hat. What I was trying to get towards was that most of us are, unwittingly, using a register that isn't fully appropriate to this form of public conversation; but equally, we're not reading it in the right manner, either. I'm certainly not entirely comfortable with straight people approporiating the word "fag" for their own purposes (or "gay" - "fag" is a vile Americanism, after all :-). But the point is, we on the internet exist precisely in that realm of "not entirely comfortable" - but not automatically uncomfortable, either. An analogy - as many of you no doubt know, I used to work for the TV company that makes Big Brother, creating new shows and developing existing ones. One of my big ideas for Big Brother was that, in addition to the cameras feeding to the outside world, they'd also feed to monitors inside the house. With the sound feed on headphones, as well. So that nothing said or done in the house would be, potentially, secret from the other housemates. The idea was, the housemates would rather quickly forget that their companions could potentially listen in on their conversations (and they would forget, trust me). Mayhem, chaos and mutual recrimination ensue. I never officially brought this up, only mentioned it in private, down the pub - it was quite clear to me that this would be a headfuck well beyond the boundaries of ethical behaviour. But you know what? That's almost exactly what the internet is. And we don't have the language capabilities to simultaneously talk to both our close friends and complete strangers at the same time. But... I think we're developing them. Slowly and painfully. As I pointed out during the "Pursuing Jane" incident, "...it's a bit fucking dumb to think that we're talking behind someone's back, when we're actually holding a party in their referrer logs." Anil Dash makes a similar point in the article I linked to above. We, the internets, we simply can't decide if we're private or public. Truth is, we're neither, and both. Oops. I laid into coppermac (a bit) for assuming homophobic intent over colloquial terms for gays in a thread some time ago. I think I feel the same about most potentially offensive terms in situations such as this - in a community like this, the assumption of offense is more offensive than the potential offense itself. In other communities, where there is less context, it's far more awkward. But the assumption of absolutes, when relating to words that are mutable in a medium going through some serious evolution... you'd better be damn sure of something before you speak. And I mean that if you're using those terms or calling them out.
• so is it a matter of "i'm intending to offend you"?
• May I just say that you're all insufferably sexy? Did I offend? So sorry.
• Oh, P.S. No swears. Don't be so fuckin testo. Thank you, the other users
• ... But I don't speak for everyone.
• There are OTHER users? When did THIS happen?
• You know, the users. The consumers. Happens all the time.
• I feel used.
• As in the other monkeys. But, you know, I just realized how easy it is to mis-type it as "MONEY" instead of "monkey." Has anyone else seen this?!?!?! Of course you have.
• .. Is it worth anything?
• .. Is it worth anything?
• I have a stutter
• So it looks like a lot of la-da-la-da stuff up there. My philosophy will be to be nice until provoked.
• Shamina is the reincarnation of Nostril. You heard it here first.
• And easy on the jew ----. It's often said in a niggardly mannor.
• Shamina is the reincarnation of Nostril. Shamina is cynnbad.
• Transpossession, then?
• Did I stutter?
• Well, I didn't say I had proof. More like rumormongering, really.
• MonkeyFilter: I feel so used. You eat with that mouth? Fegh. I've got a bar of soap with YOUR name on it. *shakes her cane and leaves muttering: miserable little fuckers
• I would say that, in a perfect environment, people would post without intending to offend. If someone took offense, they would wait a couple of minutes, then post something to the effect of "hey, that hurt my feelings." (I would say that taking offense and disagreeing are two different things. Disagreement should lead to fun debates. Just like arguing (fun!) and fighting (not fun!) are different.) The original poster would say "sorry" and maybe try to explain him or herself in a different way, which would hopefully lead to a fun debate. Of course, this isn't easy to do. I know that when my feelings are hurt, one of my first instincts is to hit back. So I guess part of our responsibility as part of a community (as we've all said many times) is to think before you post, whether it's an original post or a response to something that hurts you. I don't think this should end free communication. Politeness needn't = censorship.
• Is there such a thing as ornarchy? Everybody being simultaneously ornery until society collapses? Please...it's too late for me...save yourselves!
• I like it meredithea, but the problem is arguing and fighting are things that can happen at the same time. Many's the time when I've gotten into a quite heated arguement only to find out later that the other person thought we were fighting. And vice versa of course. All this thinking before I post. I thought we were free associaters who were just unusually profound. The rest of you aren't just typing as you think? Man I could really go for a sandwich.
• I am not aware of an ornarchy, but I have heard of the existence of a hornyarchy. And therein lies the the final destination of my search.
• Ornarchy. I'm writing that one down in my little black book, and when I am elected president, the US will become an ornarchy. The State of the Union will begin with my popping the Secretary of State in the Ass with a towel. If faced with a possible military conflict, I'll request a force depletion deport from the D.O.D "before I knock the hell out of you, bitches." And I will insist that the press refer to First Lady Tool as the First Biscuit-Roller. Now you kids get off my lawn.
• Perhaps ornarchy can be prevented by a little bananarchy.
• Pez: It's true that it's hard to tell between a good argument and a mean fight. I usually assume that I'm arguing unless someone gets personal about it.