February 15, 2005

• I feel old, today.
• I look old, today and everyday.
• Didn't William Gibson have a coolhunter in one of his novels?
• Yes, he did. But more than age, the basis of that book spins around the forces of global commerce gobbling up any new emerging subculture's characteristics and branding, sanitizing and selling them. As for age, the markets are widening. Years ago we. as a society, didn't need so much elderly care goods. Now you find them in supermarket aisles. And the other side of the coin: I might as well outlive my father (he died 75); but in what health and mind condition? Now that's scary.
• "Do you think it so important to know someone's age in a non-age related story?" Important? Maybe not. But I might have a better-informed opinion about the story with that info. Also, it helps in relating to the person involved. When I read a story about a 19 yo girl I tend to identify with the person a bit more because we share gender and age. "Given the awareness of, and access to world events and culture provided by the internet and its anonymity, in a world where you can have the same access to essential 'hipness' from 18 to 88, will age as a signifier become less relevant?" Yeah, I think that might already be happening. Most of the time I see a person's age mentioned only as it relates to the story.
• Btw, 40 is kinda old. Forty-plus year old people trying to be hip (btw, the word "hip" is old) with their iPods and messenger bags (my parents) are embarrassing.
• I kept thinking "This shit is old-hat. Everybody knows this; there was a NYT mag article about it over a year ago." Then I saw the copyright: '97. I was in high school then, and thinking back, it was pretty right on for the trends that came out ('80s nostolgia, Japanic)... On the other hand, what I tend to think is cool tends to be pretty anti-consumerist, so I'm not the demographic they want. Even though I am fucking cool.
• Flagpole: Actually, there are alarmed noises comeing from various corners of the medical community to the effect that averaghe lifespans may plummt in the West, mostly as a result of massive obesity rates. We may not outlive our fathers, thanks to our bloated carcasses sinking under the weight of hypertension and Type II diabetes.
• The overall lifespans probably wouldn't plummet (the stats show we're living longer in the US) but I imagine the numbers of obese people would dwindle due to those diseases.
• Btw, 40 is kinda old. Forty-plus year old people trying to be hip (btw, the word "hip" is old) with their iPods and messenger bags (my parents) are embarrassing. As a 41-year old with an iPod and a messenger bag, all I can say is F*CK YOU, whippersnapper. I'm not trying to impress anybody, especially you. Listening to music and needing a large bag for all the crap I have to haul around are practical concerns, and if I choose to purchase these items for their quality and usability, then snot-noses like yourself can go to hell for all I care. No personal offense intended of course.
• I always thought age was included as an identifier - if the name is a common one then adding the age narrows down the possible people involved. I can see hikikomori's viewpoint too, that it helps the reader identify, although I don't know if journalists really care about identifying personally with the subject of a story as long as the news is juicy. (I'm not as bitter as I probably sound...) That's all beside the point, really. I need more time to read the linked article.
• My one year old told me I looked like an idiot wearing a nappy. Naturally I defer to her in all matters fashion-related.
• "No personal offense intended of course." None taken, old man.
• I almost reckon it's really the other way round - stratifying social groups by age was a special product of post-War mass consumer society in the West to great extent. I mean of course people go through certain big rites of passage - puberty, marriage, seniority, but in most of the world for most of the people your social class and geographical/community would have been the main determiner of your tastes surely? Isn't it more like we're settling back down into a place where age matters less again?
• Did you explain to your one year old why you were wearing a nappy? You don't have to explain to us, of course.
• I've been reduced to rags by the ruinous cost of keeping her in iPods and Crumpler bags.
• hikikomori - "forty is kinda old" - did you say that just stir up controversy, or do you really feel that way? How old are you? I'm 65, which IS kinda old, but I can tell you that you don't get to the top of your game until you're at least 35, and it lasts for, like, 20 years or so. If you find your parents embarrassing, you ought to get to know them better. If you're, like, 15 or 16, that'll take a while, but you'll get there. And, like, I should also tell you that when I was in my 20's (older than I'd guess you are,now) I thought I'd be over the hill when I hit 45 and that was as long as I wanted to live. When I hit 45, I remembered that childish arrogance and had a slight fear that it would come true. Life was sooo good, and I didn't want to give it up. Luckily, my late adolescent hopes didn't come true. And, so, like, ancient 40 year-olds aren't allowed to use available technology? Most of the people you're talking to here are extemely well educated and more qualified than you to get the best from what's available. iPods and messenger bags? And, so, like, those are the ultimate high tech, or something? That's kinda funny. Or, are they just childish status symbols when used to show how cool you are? That isn't the reason your elders use them. They're just conviences, for them. So, Grasshopper, I think you could learn something if you'd listen. On preview - you other whippersnappers are so much more mature than I. But I'd hate to grow up too soon.
• Btw, 40 is kinda old. Forty-plus year old people trying to be hip (btw, the word "hip" is old) with their iPods and messenger bags (my parents) are embarrassing. Except...they're the ones selling you back your own subcultures...oops! Now that...that's embarrassing.
• moneyjane wins!
• Why do everytime I hear about these coolhunting people, I get the feeling I'd punch them in the face with a brick if I met them?
• When i was 18 or so, a twenty something told me how old he felt and 'just wait until you get to my age'. Now I have turned 30, I find there are plenty of 18 year olds who complain about being tired and I don't feel much different to when I was 21. I look around me and there are people who are older than me who still have great vivacity and who are active in mind and body, while there are people far younger who are already becoming overweight, extremely conservative and would think that riding to work every day is unbelievably hard.
• "hikikomori - "forty is kinda old" - did you say that just stir up controversy, or do you really feel that way?" Well, my parents are in their 40's (42,44) yet they insist on dressing and behaving younger which is embarrassing so, yes, I do feel that way. I also notice other 40-something men and women behaving this way which, oddly enough, I find more hilarious than embarrassing. It's as if people in their forties regress for a while until they're in their 50's when they begin to calm down and act their age but until then, they get pissed off if you point out their behavior. I think the Baby Boomers screwed up the generation which came just after them (GenX- the kids born in the 60's). Most of the Boomers still haven't grown up. "How old are you?" A very mature 19.
• DeeDee Gordon is now thirty-four. When last seen Baysie Wightman was with this bunch...she's very close to fifty now. Who's your mommy now, tykes?
• It has everything to do with your definition of grow up. What do you mean by that, exactly? To me, it means becoming independent and a caregiver. Also, to have moral principles, not because other people told you so, but because you've thought it out and integrated them in your character.
• Can't resist contyuing the derail" hikikomori - how do they dress, and what would be appropriate for their ages?
• A 40 year old woman in a belly shirt is just a little example of what I meant by embarrassing.
• "act their age" But what does that mean now? Is there a book somewhere on how to act like you're 42? Should Johnny Depp pick it up? Was it written by a 19-year-old?
• C. Wendell Wittler, 49, admits to never having grown up, though anecdotal evidence shows that he has never been hip, hep or a hipster. He aspires to "grow old disgracefully".
• Unlike, say, a 17-year-old jammed into lowriders that give her a gut and a flat ass? Bad fashion knows no age limit, up or down.
• Age will always be relevant. People need a hook for a story. They need to feel some association to it. Gender provides that. Age provides that. Nationality provides that. Names provide that. They are here to stay. Specifically, age lets you know whether someone should have been old enough to know better, were close enough to dying anyway, should have been at some different point in their life at that time, etc. Imagine they stop with the ages. Then the nationalities. Then the genders. "Last night a life form was terminated in an automobile accident." Just doesn't quite grab me.
• That was in ref to the "A 40 year old..." above :)
• "Is there a book somewhere on how to act like you're 42?" See, I get the feeling people who were adults in the 1950's (the Depression Era kids) never needed to ask that question.
• Arrgh..too...slow...
• "Last night a life form was terminated in an automobile accident." LOL! Good point.
• Good point about those pants, moneyjane. I have seen so many girls who are very attractive with decent bodies who seem to be going out of their way to present their bodies in the most unflattering way possible. If that was their intention, then that would be fine. However, they actually are trying to look appealing to the shallow looks-obsessed public. If Alanis Morissette understood the defition, surely even she would call that ironic.
• See, I get the feeling people who were adults in the 1950's (the Depression Era kids) never needed to ask that question. They sure the hell didn't, given they got conformity shoved down their throats left right and sideways... Damn today's uppity old folk!
• they're the ones selling you back your own subcultures...oops! Now that...that's embarrassing. On top of that, they also get to rage against the "ageist" pop culture which they control. It's considered natural that none of the industry executives is your age, but it's absolutely vile that most models-actors-popstars are. Sucker! /jest
• "How old are you?" A very mature 19. I strongly disagree. (not about the 19 part) Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
• "They sure the hell didn't, given they got conformity shoved down their throats left right and sideways..." A level of maturity was encouraged and that can't be all bad. Don't tell Boomers and GenX about maturity though.
• I get the feeling people who were adults in the 1950's (the Depression Era kids) never needed to ask that question. I get the feeling adults of that era would literally smack their 19-year-old kids who called them "embarrassing" for any reason. But anyway, we don't know what it was like back then, so it's pointless to speculate.
• And my generation isn't marketing low-riders and other stupid clothes to themselves (in fact, no generation markets to itself), it's mostly the older gen who yearn to see young females dressed the way they did when they were young.
• Don't tell Boomers and GenX about maturity though. And you know what your generation is going to be like in twenty years, how, exactly?
• And my generation isn't marketing low-riders and other stupid clothes to themselves... And yet, who buys them?
• Don't tell Boomers and GenX about maturity though. Says the 19 year-old? *remembers the sweet untroubled certainty of youth* *pats hikkomori on the head* My dear hikkomori, you will blink three times and find yourself staring 40 in the face. Trust us (thirtysomething) geezers on this one.
• Young people are attractive. Old people still want to be attractive. Can you blame them? And for all of you wanting to pile on the 19-year-old, I'm betting she's cooler than any of you are, at least in terms of today's culture. Arguing that it's uncool to have that culture sold back to you, or that 17-year-olds can look crappy in low riders is just one more rationalization as you march toward the grave, Gramma and Granpa. Let the kids have their subculture, and realize that any effort to reach out to it will only leave it skitting away...
• "I get the feeling adults of that era would literally smack their 19-year-old kids who called them "embarrassing" for any reason." I get the feel they wouldn't have had to. Violence is never the answer, btw, especially towards your kids.
• This is why I like the Monkeyhouse; we really have a spectrum going on, and none of us takes any crap :)
• "My dear hikkomori, you will blink three times and find yourself staring 40 in the face." I'm not afraid of old age. :)
• kikikomori - so, one of your parent wears belly shirts? All the time? What else do they wear?
• "kikikomori - so, one of your parent wears belly shirts? All the time? What else do they wear?" Mom almost wore one of those shirts last year and I calmly led her over to a much better blouse which she loved. Sometimes parents just need a little guidance.
• "I'm not afraid of old age." But will you embarrass your children? Or, shouldn't they care?
• But will you embarrass your children? Or, shouldn't they care? Maybe I will embarrass them in some way but it won't be for behaving or dressing their age.
• So, you still haven't answered my question on thwat they do wear. Why does it embarrass you?
• What is dressing in you age like? How is it different from what you think they should wear?
• Previewing would be good.
• I gotta go, Frontline's on - episode: Rumsfeld's War. I might pick this up later, this was fun. Ciao.
• I get the feel they wouldn't have had to. Violence is never the answer, btw, especially towards your kids. Do you think the mature parents of the 50's are less violent toward their kids than the immature boomer/Gen-X parents? I'm betting she's cooler than any of you are, at least in terms of today's culture I don't care. Cool doesn't matter to me unless it brings tangible benefits. Color me jealous if she earns more money than I do.
• Please, your parents were probably dressing that way when they were your age too. If they suddenly went from staid, JC Penney types to hipster wannabees, then you might have an argument. That said, hipsters of any age should be beaten with a shovel. Oh, and I and people like me pioneered the messenger bag and the iPod and a whole lot of other stuff that you now consider cool. Almost everything you think is cool was sold to you by people who are much older. And you bought into it, hook, line and sinker.
• I'm betting she's cooler than any of you are, at least in terms of today's culture Which culture is that? There are many. The 19-year-old culture? Yeah, she's got that nailed. But most 19-year olds look and dress like idiots to 30- and 40-somethings, and even worse to 50-somethings and above. The one constant in life is that everyone is embarrased by how they dressed and acted twenty years ago, and can't understand their kids' generation.
• You're old if you sit on your arse, do nothing but consume, and cut yourself off from the world by hiding behind a wheel & a remote control. You're young if you're moving your arse, connecting with people, & doing new stuff. (BTW, I heartily recommend this book to all monkeys of a certain age.)
• I was a tight-jeans-wearing-long-haired-metal-loving bogan who spent too much time in the library when I was 19. I'm not sure I can be any less 'cooler' then than now. Especially as I own an industrial strength messenger bag with customised colour panels. I still spend too much time in the library, but now I at least get paid for it.
• kikikomori: In case you don't realize it, you're kind of coming off as condescending. You don't know everything; your perspective is not the only one that counts. (Theory: Maybe when one realizes that that's true is when one has finally grown up?)
• Btw, 40 is kinda old. Forty-plus year old people trying to be hip (btw, the word "hip" is old) with their iPods and messenger bags (my parents) are embarrassing. Blah. There seem to be two camps. The 25+ crowd who have enough foresight to know that it makes no difference -- that labelling the aging rocker is the same as labelling the young punk, and that labels suck, period -- and the under 25 crowd (with exceptions) who think they're the only crowd that knows how to be cool, that defines cool itself. I'm on the (lower) edge of that group Coupland dubbed "Gen-X", and at the time, I was counseling in a youth group home. Well, every kid I knew ten years younger than me thought the label applied to them, seemingly because they thought they were the only ones it made sense to focus on.
• rocket88 is spot-on.
• We old fuckers have one distinct advantage...we know *exactly* what retards we were when younger, while the youngsters have no clue what they'll be like in twenty years.
• For some reason, the thread reminds me of this article. Anyways, I don't see why people should be so worked up about acting/not acting their age. If people just did what they wanted instead of being perpetually afraid of what other people would view them as, age wouldn't be such a problem.
• If people just did what they wanted instead of being perpetually afraid of what other people would view them as, age wouldn't be such a problem. Neither would life.
• I can't say I'm really embarassed about how I dressed or acted twenty years ago. After all, I didn't really have much choice about what I wore. Metal Monkey - Yeah, I spent so much time in my teens and twenties paralysed by thoughts about what people would think about my smallest actions, that I really don't want to spend too much more time second guessing how other people perceive me when I order a take away meal.
• The kid's got half a point. What he misses is that motivation matters. The middle-aged guy who gets the kids out of the home, and trades in the accursed station wagon he's been driving because practicality has been his watchword for 20 years, and picks up the sports car he lusted after at 20 - he's living his dreams now he can afford to. That's cool. The middle-aged who looks at his thinning hair, his softened waistline, his not-what-it-was sexual performance, and picks up the sports car so he can chase women half his age in order to kid himself he's young again - he's a sad, sad little man.
• I listen to a lot of hip hop, and I cringe when I hear something I've been listening to at home booming out of the speakers of somebody's pimped out car jammed with cruising 17-year-olds because I'm like, "Ewww...mainstream". I make my own assumptions about those twenty years younger than me, thinking of them as a bland consuming blob, devoid of personality. Interesting that the youngers also think that of my generation. There is no hip; there's only stores.
• Amusing thread, it reminds me of my teenage nieces. They are so cool, you know. Makes me laugh. Bunch of re-runs. Hikikomori, 40 something will jump up and grab you one day, sooner than you can imagine. Guess what, bet you don't feel any older or less cool than you do now just wiser. :)
• A very mature 19. Uh-huh. Come back to this thread in, oh, 21 years and see how mature you think you were. Do you not realize that complaining about your parents is a sure mark of adolescence? No, of course you don't. You're 19.
• And remember: age doesn't define social class. Ever. It's the ownership of the means of production. /back to making the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution.
• Age has some relevance, but it's no more important a factor than race, gender, sexual orientation or anything else when we consider a person as a whole. My wife and I are old enough to have kids who have graduated from university, so you can imagine how old I must seem to the young and hip at times. I notice it most particularly at concerts: a lot of seventeen year olds just stare blankly at the old guy with the grey hair who apparently enjoys the same band that they do. The snobbery and dismissiveness runs both ways, of course. I have friends my age who casually and matter-of-factly ignore or deride the opinions and interests of the under-30 set, and decry every social movement and item of interest of twentysomethings as crass, idiotic and temporary in the extreme. Sometimes they are correct (after all, nothing is more tedious and ephemeral than pop culture), but quite often they refuse to accept change simply because change doesn't suit them. Who's surprised by younger people then dismissing, in return, the 'learned opinions' of a pack of old farts with such barnacle-encrusted, calcified viewpoints? For the record, I don't dress hip, look hip or try to emulate what I think might be hip. I look like a stocky, middle-aged+ ex-cop with just enough sense to get by without embarrasing anyone, especially myself. Then again, why should anyone really care if I decide to wig out and get a trendy pair of eyeglasses, a trendy haircut and some expensive, cutting edge electronic doodads? Being cool is about not caring what the hell anyone thinks of you and doing what you want to do. Thinking you can appropriate coolness by wearing a particular style of shoe reveals just how immature and unhip these marketing weasels are, in reality.
• My Dad, who just turned 80, is the coolest guy I know.
• Fifty is the new forty. I'm not there yet but I'm on the ramp. Anyhow, what's this about acting your age? Who came up with that? For those worried about old age, there was a happiness survey done and wouldn't you know it seems that as we get older we tend to get happier. Ah, i wish i knew now what i knew at lunch. As to fashion, what does that have to do with age? And what the heck is a bellyshirt?
• Cool is a relic of an earlier era which we are thankfully shedding. It was the product of the electronic media culture colliding with traditional culture. Cool was born as a way to signal to others that someone was tuned in, awake, aware of themselves, engaged and creative, an individual. These electronic values competed against the traditional values of a much harsher and punitive cultural system that emphasized responsibility, loyalty, conformity, and the importance of the group over the individual. The battle has been fought, and electronic values have won. This can be seen by the fact that the uncool has nearly disappeared. Napoleon Dynamite can be seen as an example of electronic values consuming traditional values, of cool consuming even the uncool. The reassertion of the uncool is the last gasp of traditional culture. It seeks domination and control of others by assigning shame, embarrassment, humiliation, and fear. Those who describe others as "old" or "embarrassing" are merely attempting to reassert the uncool. But they are on the losing side, and most will eventually realize this. The beauty of the victory of the cool is that it frees us from the cool/uncool dichotomy altogether. It allows us to spend our days pursuing our own interests, being ourselves instead of a cookie cutter mold of who we feel we're supposed to be. The past is dead. No one has to be old anymore.
• Napoleon Dynamite can also be seen as an example of a crappy piece of film-making designed to prey on people who will buy a ticket to whatever cinema still has a seat available.
• I'd written a very long and tedious exegesis of cool, and found that stimulantcaplets beat me to the punch. And in a much more pithy fashion, might I add.
• Please, please let's not fight. No matter how old you are, can we all agree that an iPod was never cool?
• McLuhan was the worst thing Canada ever did to Humanity. I'm very ashamed of my passport and my rocky mountains because of him. And my Alberta petroleum, too.
• Do you not realize that complaining about your parents is a sure mark of adolescence? No, of course you don't. You're 19. Do you realize that condescending to 19 year olds is a sure mark of lazy middle age? No, of course you don't. You're 40.
• This is a hilarious thread. The young'un doesn't realize she's being a bit dense about it all, and the old folks are getting their knickers all in a twist. As a middley-type (26) I feel privileged to sit and laugh at both camps. Chill out, dudes. A 19-year old doesn't think you're cool! Oh noes! Cool people wouldn't let it get to them, y'know. And to the young'un, try to realize that your comments about your parents' clothes make you look less mature than you profess to be. :)
• At 19, I thought 36 was old. At 36, I think 19 is young. Folly all around.
• a tight-jeans-wearing-long-haired-metal-loving bogan OK, so who else on this list knows what a "bogan" is?
• The hip, cool, youth market is . . . (drum roll) a MARKET designed to sell you stuff you don't need. Post-modern cool/uncool analysis of this market is also a market. Go ahead and buy if you want, but I'm saving my money for retirement.
• If only I could wear the clothes I wore when I was uncool and 15, I could be cool now. *laments becoming a man and staying uncool*
• OK, so who else on this list knows what a "bogan" is? Like a vegan only they eat nothing but bacon from pigs that have committed suicide?
• Hey, I'm 20 and I'm laughing my ass off here. Too bad I'm so late to the thread. As far as I'm concerned, it's fair punishment for anyone who thinks something is cool and belongs to their subculture to see it in the hands of everyone else. And messenger bags are, indeed, good things. I've a whole kit of nerdy things I carry around with me, and a purse, for instance, doesn't come anywhere close to being useful.
• I pretend to be cool by every now and again using my messenger bag again instead of my panniers.
• I'm cool because I refuse to belittle people for being different. Also, I own a Moleskine. And yes, they are that fucking fantastic.
• I have to agree with the poster far above re: intentions and supposed mid-life crises. The guy who buys the convertible because he's finally able to afford one -- at whatever age -- is cool. He's the guy who hasn't sold out. (and no, not me. I still take the bus/walk/unicycle) In Nepal, a man is eventually expected to take a long look at his life and, if he and his family can afford it, hit the road in search of a more ascetic existence. In Burma, monkhood is expected when that stage is reached (but few families can afford to spare their man at any point). Our society simply doesn't know what to do with its young or its old.
• I often laugh when the argument is put out that young people shouldn't be able to laugh because they aren't mature or wise enough. I mean, what more evidence do we need that age does not equal wisdom than the numerous varieties of combover?
• A bogan is the kid who hogs the weed he stole from his mom :)
• If Gramps wants to pop in Eminem rather than Tony Bennett, who gives a flying fuck? I mean, come on, is our social hierarchy that rigid to where this issue has to have any real meaning? If so, we're just judging him on the shallowest merits of an already bankrupt culture.
• ...the numerous varieties of combover I prefer the receding mohawk myself. Dead sexy. Whooo.
• Don't knock the hawk. Got me crazy attention from the women in T.O. Too bad I live in Ottawa (where I'm a freak).
• I'm cool because I like girls in skirts. Long skirts. But, on topic, I don't think "hipness" has to do with age anymore. It is more what you wear and how you act. It becomes embarrassing to be seen around your parents when they try hard to be cool the same way it is embarrassing to be around your friends when they do the same. Fuck, it hurts me when I see strangers doing it. Not that they are wearing or saying certain things, but because they are doing it because marketing people told them to. It is just sad to see someone trying so hard to fit cultures definiton of cool.
• Oops, forgot to clarify one thing. I don't have a problem with people who do/say/consume things because they -like- them. If my p-pop likes his ipod and faux-hawk on their own merits, fine.
• Moneyjane, the denizens of the more monied elements of our fair land, would probably find your definition quite apt.
• Yeah, it's not too far off, but I'm guessing she got there via "bogart".
• Is a "bogan" anything like a "grit?" That's what we called it in Baltimore.
• Disclosure: 37, bald as hell, capable of sucking the cool out of a room just by entering it. The current emphasis on youth culture has, to my mind, one cause and two ignoble end results. First, the cause: the current (over)emphasis on youthfulness, especially on the part of the aging, is in my opinion a colossal responsibility-avoidance mechanism. American culture has, over the last severla decades, increasingly had an element of studious avoidance of personal responsibility, especially a willingness to shoulder some of the more onerous responsibilities (i.e financial independence. civic duty, things of that nature). Instead, the license of youth has been artificially extended into ages where, otherwise, one might be previously expected to act like a grownup. When such licentious persons were rare, they tended to be treated with indulgence. Now that such persons are the rule rather than the exception? Your end results: the first? Adolescence delayed indefinitely puts adolescent thought into positions of influence; adolescents, having no experience engaging in critical thinking and making grownup decisions (and occasionally botching them, resulting in the all important acquisition of wisdom by fucking up), continues fucking up well into their stunted adulthood, only on a far grander scale. Additionally (2nd result), a nation of adolescents has ruined what might previously have be called "adult" culture (I'm thinking a good example of this might be the ethos exhibited by the Rat Pack and their concomitant generation). In the past, there was a bright line between what consititued pre-adult culture, and adult culture and, what's more, pre-adults saw the entering of adult culture as a desireable thing. Today, however: how many adults do you know that are avid fans of the Harry Potter series? Contrast that with the attnednace at your local symphony or jazz club. Blue Man Group might be visually arresting, but I can't imagine anything but that, as an art form, it appeals to the adolescent, rather than the adult. Those, examples are cultural, but I think equally indicative examples could be found in nearly every aspect of modern life (a limit on judicial awards can only, to my mind, be targetted against adolescents on one side, who sue friviously, and adolescents on the other, who award ludicrous awards as guided by an infantile sense of justice). Anyway, if that ball comes in my yard, I'm keeping it, ya whippersnappers! *hikes pants up to nipples*
• "I used to be with it. Then they changed what 'it' was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it is strange and disturbing."
• There's someone with a Mohawk in Ottawa? Plleeeeeese someone tell me what a bellyshirt is. Okay have it your way. Don't tell me. And i don't need to know what a bogan, Moleskine or messenger bag is either. Ha! Ha! I'm free! free!.....
• The biggest Harry Highpants I know is 22.
• Contrast that with the attnednace at your local symphony or jazz club. Good God. I THINK what you're saying, Mr. Cosby, is that young people don't appreciate the jazz? I know plenty of young (20s or early 30s) people who like both jazz and classical music. They dont go to the symphony because it is very expensive and specifically designed to make young and/or not wealthy people feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. a nation of adolescents has ruined what might previously have be called "adult" culture (I'm thinking a good example of this might be the ethos exhibited by the Rat Pack and their concomitant generation). I'm confused: I ruined the ethos of hanging out with the mafia, getting drunk every night, having a glass eye, and posing for embarassing photos hugging Richard Nixon? I cant say I entirely get this, but if I did ruin your ethos, my dad will just have to dock my allowance and use it to buy you a new one.
• StoryBored: It is a shirt whose hem lies above your belly-button. In my area, it is mainly worn by obese girls in the winter.
• that young people don't appreciate the jazz? hanging out with the mafia, getting drunk every night, having a glass eye, and posing for embarassing photos hugging Richard Nixon? Symptoms of the bigger picture. What I'm trying to say is better encapsulted here: In the past, there was a bright line between what consititued pre-adult culture, and adult culture and, what's more, pre-adults saw the entering of adult culture as a desireable thing. There was a sense of two cultural worlds, one youth, one adult, a palpable divide between the two, and the impetus for youth to cross over to adulthood. Today, there is no real defining event, where adolescents can say "I am an adult now," and because they perceive adulthood as a loss rather than a gain, they avoid it.
• There's a lot of older blokes wearing belly shirts then.
• Monkeyjane, you've been crackin' me up this whole thread.... When I was growing up in Chicago, there was a point in every woman's life (usually 10 minutes after the first kid, sometimes earlier) when the 'uniform' appeared: Short puffy-front haircut, a la Lindsey Crouse at the end of House of Games, high waisted mom jeans and tennis shoes, sweater & fake pearls, often accented with a disapproving grimace. There was an apolitically conservative mindset that went with the look, too. Whenever I go back, I still see armies of women with this 'look', and they still scare the hell out of me. One of the things I like about LA is that ladygeezers such as myself aren't required to conform to a mom uniform. While I wouldn't inflict the sight of myself in a bellyshirt on strangers, I can at least keep my hair long and dress casual cool without getting dirty looks from the PTA members. Best of all I don't have to fake the staid, conservative outlook, which will never fit anyway.
• Hikikimori, it sounds like you have an issue with your parents and you're projecting it onto everyone you think of as "old". Your criticism of them may be valid: I think we all can think of an example of someone trying to be part of a subculture (via fashion or otherwise) that they're too old to be a part of. And that's embarassing, especially if you're that person's child. But the impression I get from you, hikikimori, is not that you don't like people being what they're not, but that you have very definite ideas about what they are, or should be, depending upon their age. And that's a different matter. When I was 19, I didn't try to "be" anything. I just did the things I wanted to do and dressed the way I wanted to dress. Now, at the age of 40, I do the same thing. I don't have any idea what clothes I might wear, or music I might listen to, or anything that I could do to try to act as if I were a 19-year-old. I don't think that way. I wear 501 Levis, which I've worn for 25 years and which are hopelessly out-of-fashion. I listen to, for example, Rage Against the Machine, which I'm guessing isn't "appropriate" for someone my age in your estimation. You're right that things are different than they used to be, but you're wrong in thinking that it's bad that they're different. You really give off a vibe of being very conformist, which would have suited the middle twentieth century quite well. Too bad you weren't born then. But we Gen-Xers grew up during a time when a lot of conformist ageist and gender roles—and roles of all types—were greatly loosened or discarded. I think that's a good thing.
• (Actually, RATM is very old. I meant to say System of a Down.)
• But kmellis, what do I do when someone under 20 tells me that 'Ice Ice Baby' is cool?
• Just hit Bank St. on a Friday night, StoryBored. Though you won't find me there.
• At night I feel terrifically young. By morning I feel so very very old. And, dj, it's "Under Pressure", get the title right. : )
• Fes makes a good point, the lack of some kind of ritual or other event to clearly mark the passage into adulthood. I wonder how much of a difference it would actually make in practice, but certainly lacking such an event blurs the line, in a very real sense. In my case, I didn't really feel like a man until I got married and bought a house. Now, that's not a standard I'd want to see applied universally, but I mention it only to illustrate that it took some concrete events (one of them an elaborate ritual) to make me stop questioning whether I had become a man yet. For a long time, I was simply a "guy." YMMV, of course.
• "RATM" and System of a Down are not appropriate for anyone because they suck very very badly. And I can't imagine anything more immature than verbally attacking someone 20 years your junior because they happen to disagree with you or said something that hit a little too close to home. Isn't there a puppy you can kick or something?
• When I see the price that you pay/ I dont wanna grow up/ I dont ever wanna be that way/ and I dont wanna grow up/ it seems that folks turn into things they never want/ the only thing to live for is today
• ps I feel like a man, even though I have never bought a house, gotten married, or been booked into the Sands for a month of shows with my cronies.
• But kmellis, what do I do when someone under 20 tells me that 'Ice Ice Baby' is cool? Same thing you do with anyone of any age that says that. Beat them with a shovel.
• Thanks for that Surlyboi, much appreciated.
• Well, I do think that quoting song lyrics, even Tom Waits lyrics, is an activity best left to adolescents.
• But what if you do happen to be the very model of a modern Major General?
• This has been a very interesting and entertaining thread and I've learned a lot. Mostly that I'm right about everything. Thanks, everybody! ;) No, seriously, I've picked up some very valuable ideas which I will incorporate into my own and take full credit. moneyjane, you're hilarious.
• It's why I get up in the morning, by God! If I couldn't bring a little ray of sunshine into the world with my madcap ways, I'd...I'd...aw fuck it...could somebody please feed me to the gators?
• I'm 34. Too old to be cool and too young to gripe about still being hip. pulls moleskine out of his re-load messenger bag and jots a few notes, picks some lent out of his exposed navel, ponders his tattoo, looks over adoringly at sleeping son,and types comment on his iBook
• hikikomori, to put it bluntly, grow up. or rather, please don't. but realize, as others have pointed out, that you are not unique and you shouldn't judge. none of us is a position to judge. we just know better considering we said such stupid things at 19. 'cause we're old. don't change... please... we need your innocence.
• huh? ok. huh? ok. huh? true. uh...ok.
• I don't give a rat's ass if I'm cool or not. I never was at 19, and it's too late to start now. I said it in my profile--most likely written before half you punks were hatched. May I quote: Old enough to know better, still young enough not to care. just one more rationalization as you march toward the grave, Gramma and Granpa. JS: Watchet! I'll hit you with my cane, you little fart. *gums dentures, hitches old lady underwear, and gimps off GramMa BlueHorse says, "Here kiddies, have a banana. Shove it in your ear."
• To answer moneyjane's question: It does seem like ages are blurring together relative to when we were younger, yes? But that's not a big surprise given that, in my experience at least, people just abit younger than me are all waiting till their 30s to get married and have kids. Not 20s, like it used to be. I'm sure that there are less people doing the "get married, have kids, buy house, mow yard, join PTA, buy boat" thing than there used to be. I'm probably a bit more confused than most. I was married in my twenties, but have been divorced all through my thirties. No kids. A pretty itenerant lifestyle. But also, starting with my ex-wife and then when I went back to school, all of my "crowd" has been about six years younger than me. So, in some ways, these days I feel more like 34 than 40. My best friend from high school, with whom I now share the same city of residence, is remarried and has two teenage girls, a huge (intimidating) house, and is in the middle of his career. It freaks me out. That's so not me. And the only part of it that I'd really like to be "me" is the having kids part. I sorta figured out in my twenties that the white picket-fence wasn't my thing. Anyway, I can't tell at all how old anyone is anymore. Late teens through thirties: all looks about the same to me. It's very confusing. Also, did anyone else think that grownups sounded like grownups when we were kids but, mysteriously, we still sound the way we sounded when we were young? To my ear, for example, that old friend I just mentioned sounds today exactly like he did when he was 17. But how come then people's ages were so apparent in their voices and speech?
• I'm cool. I'm really cool.
• Even though I am fucking cool. Bzzzzzzzzt! Broke the first rule of cool right there. TKO.
• (TKO, self-inflicted. My favourite kind.)
• Ok, so I'm a bit late to this, but I wanted to show off my knowledge of bogans: He drives a VK Commodore with alloy wheels, With a home made spoiler made of crappy steel, A pair of fluffy dice and all the other toys etc etc Nobody likes, nobody likes, nobody likes a bogan (repeat)
• Wolof- Fuckin' irony, ol' man. Gum it over a while. Cool: Sex, drugs and dangerous music. As people age, they have less of each in their lives. If they don't, hey, that's cool. But... whatever. Or, to put it another way, I consider both of my parents cool. My mother is a working artist (photographer) and my father's a doctoral student working in the field of rhetoric with a fuckin' tits album collection. But they're the exception that proves the rule. I can trust them to make critical judgements about media, culture and experience that I can't trust my girlfriend's parents to make, even though they're about the same age. Her parents get all of their news from Time magazine and Nightline, go to movies like Sideways and then are dutifully confused and disappointed, and listen to Yanni. There are far more like her parents than there are like mine. But hell, you old folks probably listen to Wings, or Paul Simon and Sting's recent albums. As for all of you piling on Hiki, well, y'know, that's a pretty easy signifier for being uncool. Making a self-deprecating joke about being called out as dust-for-cum dodderers? That would have been cool. Nonchalance, my friends, is always cool. (As for the central conciet of this post, no, you will never see ages not listed after descriptions in newsprint. Why? Because it does tell us more about the person— in local papers, their address is also included— despite whatever inaccurate preconceptions the reader may have. And as long as there's even a patina of function to go along with tradition, the AP won't change its guidelines. Since they're the biggest arbiter of journalism copyediting policy, it'll stay in currency).
• There is no hip; there's only stores. *applauds*
• Wings? Hell no. Everybody knows that Men at Work is the greatest band in the world. (/sarcasm... /sarcasm... ... what do you mean my sarcasm tag wasn't on?)
• I love Men at Work - Pop Goes the World!
• I can't even look at young girls anymore People will think I'm some kind of pervert Adult sex is either boring or dirty Young people they can get away with murder I don't write songs about girls anymore I have to write songs about women No more "Boy meets girl, boy loses girl" More like "Man tries to understand what the hell went wrong" 'Cause I'm an adult now.... I'm an Adult Now The Pursuit of Happiness
• Well, my 21 y.o. daughter BOUGHT me a belly shirt, and I wore it with pride. At 39. And it looked good, yo.
• rocket88 that's precisely the song I've had in my head this whole thread... the perfect blend of witty, wry irony and rockin' musical virtuosity. I wish I could have had two minutes with my nineteen-year-old self from this distance. I guess a lot of people do. If I'd known I was gonna live this long, I'd have taken better care of my car
• I've gotten a few gray hairs just trying to read this thread while pretending to work. coppermac: For the record, I don't dress hip, look hip or try to emulate what I think might be hip. I look like a stocky, middle-aged+ ex-cop with just enough sense to get by without embarrasing anyone, especially myself. I'm like you, mac (except I'm only 35, was never a cop, and I'm not stocky), and would like to add that I'm also a fish out of water trying to get by in a world I didn't make. (/obscure Simpsons reference) Being cool is about not caring what the hell anyone thinks of you and doing what you want to do. Thinking you can appropriate coolness by wearing a particular style of shoe reveals just how immature and unhip these marketing weasels are, in reality. Yeah, that grizzled old cop is right! Seriously though, I resigned myself to the fact I'd never be "cool" or "hip" in grade school, and I'm happier for not trying. It's a huge waste of energy and money, IMO. I buy clothes that I think look good, that are comfortable and well-made. I'll never turn heads, but I don't like that kind of attention anyway. Now, back to reading the rest of the thread work.
• BTW - Men at Work is the suckiest band of sucks that ever sucked. And I should know, I used to love them. I heard a song of theirs this morning and remembered what horrible taste I used to have. Used to have, mind you.
• Oooookkayyy. So now i know about the belly shirt. That's just great, I can't get the image outta my head. God help me.
• If being cool means I have to say things like "Reebok is trying to get butter" and wear ill-fitting, ugly 80s clothes with ironic intent, well, screw that. I'll be 35 this year, but even having bought and sold two houses and with a wedding on the way, I have yet to feel 35. As far as I can tell, I'm still just out of college. It's a strange psychic disconnect. I'm sure that one day I'll feel 35, but it probably won't be until I'm in my 50s.
• As far as I'm concerned, it's fair punishment for anyone who thinks something is cool and belongs to their subculture to see it in the hands of everyone else. Well-said, shandrin old bean. And messenger bags are, indeed, good things. I've a whole kit of nerdy things I carry around with me, and a purse, for instance, doesn't come anywhere close to being useful. Messenger bags give me back pain. I use an L.L. Bean backpack, slung over both shoulders. I bet I'm the uncoolest one here!
• Fes: American culture has, over the last several decades, increasingly had an element of studious avoidance of personal responsibility, especially a willingness to shoulder some of the more onerous responsibilities (i.e financial independence. civic duty, things of that nature). Instead, the license of youth has been artificially extended into ages where, otherwise, one might be previously expected to act like a grownup. (and the rest of it) My sentiments exactly! Quit reading my mind, you old fart.
• Well, I do think that quoting song lyrics, even Tom Waits lyrics, is an activity best left to adolescents. Hope I die before I get old/ This is my generation
• the license of youth has been artificially extended into ages where, otherwise, one might be previously expected to act like a grownup I guess. One was previously expected to go fight a war in a foreign land, and if he survived, come home, marry a local girl, get a job at the mill and start squeezing out kids. If that is "growing up" then you can keep it. You can have my protracted adolescence when you pry it from my cold dead hands.
• Yeah! Don't try to d-d-d-dig what we all say!
• I have broken the world down to three kinds of cool. One is the kind where you like what you like, you don't like what you don't like, and you are not embarrassed about either category. You don't decide whether to do something or what clothes to buy or what music to listen to or what movies to see based on what everyone else is or isn't doing. Not liking something because everybody else likes it is just as idiotic as liking something because everybody else likes it. I have found that people who fit into this category are generally respected by people. The second kind of cool are people who desperately do not want to be uncool. These are the primary targets of advertising. If you do not buy these particular products or have these particular habits, then category 3 cool people will make fun of you. So the point of this kind of cool is to have no individuality to make sure you can avoid being mocked by category 3 people. The third kind of cool are people who try to knock down other as a way of lifting themselves up. These people are going to be very critical of almost everything, and passionate about almost nothing. There will be a couple of uber-cool responses they can give you to some questions, but mostly they would prefer not to tell you what they like. They are just more interested in telling you why what you like it not cool.
• Oh for the good old days when women were women, and men were...monkeys. Now this idea of a male initiation rite, that's something i can wrap my teeth around. Yeah, let's get it on. It should be something vigorous, something less squishy that marrying or having kids. Also it should be inflicted by surprise because true men don't need preparation. Middleclasstool, Gimme a thousand push-ups right now! One...
• I've spent the last few years of my 20s thinking that I was still practically a teenager. This illusion was shattered last year, when a teenage girl came up to me at the mall and said, "Excuse me, ma'am, can you tell me what time it is?" Ruined my fucking day, it did. The truth is, though, I'm a lot more comfortable with myself at 29 (almost 30!) than I was at 19. I probably wouldn't give that up, even if I could reverse some of the more unpleasant effects of gravity and general wear and tear. I have a few friends in their late 50s/early 60s who wear pretty hip and young-looking clothes. They look great.
• Cool is the ability, when your integrity is being disparaged or ignored, in any and all situations, to calmly say "Blow me" to all and sundry and walk out the door.
• I wanted to be cool, once. Then I realised that, being a science fiction obsessed, computer game addicted, overweight, bearded programmer, I was never likely to attain that dream. So I gave it up, and had a pizza instead.
• I take the Taoist approach: What is the most important part of Cool? The part where there is no cool. I'm not just cool, I'm deep too.
• I climbed in the fridge. I'm still there! My new friends are Hammy the Ham, Emma N. Tal and some mould that we call "Bruce". Yeah, we totally fucking love it in here and everything is really "cool".
• Did the little light turn off?
• Yes - thus we navigate by "vibes". Woah! I'm picking up some "heavy vibes" right now, "man"!
• *waggles eyebrows in a decidedly cool manner*
• Romeo Dallaire, the unknown Chinese protester who stared down the tank at Tiananmen, and Bishop Juan Gerardi are examples that come to mind right off the top.
• the unknown Chinese protester who stared down the tank at Tiananmen The most inspiring person in the entire world.
• Koko: BTW - Men at Work is the suckiest band of sucks that ever sucked. And I should know, I used to love them. I heard a song of theirs this morning and remembered what horrible taste I used to have. In that case, do you have any recordings I can have, now that you don't like them? I've been wanting a copy of "pop goes the world" since I was ten and it was all the rage. To this day I just well up with childhood nostalgia at hearing it. Certainly it was better than the albulm I did have - Milli Vanilli : )
• That's Men Without Hats you're looking for.
• Mj's right. Men at Work did "Land Down Under" which had a decent music video. Mind you, Milli might be worth some money some day.
• At any rate, I think I sold my Men At Work cassettes at a yard sale.
• Wow, this thread is absolutely hilarious. And thought-provoking. Can't ask for more than that. I thought I was terribly mature at 19, too. I've never met a teenager who didn't think they were terribly mature; it comes with the territory, whether it's true or not. I wasn't mature. Others may be; I've heard kids half my age express thoughts that really impressed me. But just saying that you're mature doesn't make it true. I could say I'm the Queen of Sheba, but... well, you know. I also thought (at 18) that I'd absolutely have to kill myself if I made it to 30, because life was so unbearable and I'd be such an old, washed-up, pathetic, useless wreck by that advanced age that I may as well give up because life would simply not be worth living. It's T-minus 2 years 3.5 months and I think I'm finally starting to enjoy life, so... there goes that concept. Never been cool, though. I was uncool at 17, I'm uncool at 27, and I'll be uncool at 67. Takes some of the pressure off, I have to say. Don't have to worry about recapturing my glorious youth, or anyone else's, for that matter. Actually, dng beat me to that and better put, but y'know. Oh, the trauma that cool people face!
• Oh... I do always mix them up. I actually have a copy of "Land Down Under" - and yes, I like it :) But if anyone sees "Pop goes the world" on an Mp3 blog, ring me a line? Thanks.
• "Excuse me, ma'am, can you tell me what time it is?" The only acceptable answer to this question in such a circumstance is "Yo bitch, ask Flava Flav!" then walk away briskly, whistling 'My Uzi Weighs a Ton'.
• I know you hate my '98.
• One of the most interesting and profound things I've ever read was in "Rabbit is Rich" by John Updike (I think) He said that there is no such thing as adulthood. Every generation imitates their parents and hopes no one will see through their fraud, when of course their parents where just imitating their parents anyway. The fact is, you can always look back with the benfit of hindsight and say "I was so immature at 19." Do you really think it'll be any different when you look back at 40 from the vantage point of 50?
• The young'un doesn't realize she's being a bit dense about it all, and the old folks are getting their knickers all in a twist. As a middley-type (26) I feel privileged to sit and laugh at both camps. I'm 24. If I'm an old fork, you can't be a middley-type. Chill out, dudes. A 19-year old doesn't think you're cool! Oh noes! Cool people wouldn't let it get to them, y'know. Whatever that 19-year-old thinks about the coolness of older people is mere fodder for laughter. What gets to me, just a little, is the assertion that parents in the 1950's were more mature. As a gay Chinese immigrant in North America, pardon me for not seeing the superiority of *any* era before the civil rights movement. Parents in the 1950's were more likely to throw out a gay child, to warn their children against befriending "foreigners," and as I already mentioned, to dole out physical discipline. The 19-year-old doesn't seem to get that "mature" parents of that era she so prefers would likely be much less tolerant of her judgments on them. If not for the self-indulgent boomers and their spoiling parental ways, few under 20 would even own an iPod.
• I didn't think I was mature at 19. I don't think I'm mature at 25.
• kmellis: we've stopped being in flux like when we were kids. Our personalities are, major events notwithstanding, fixed for the rest of our lives. Also, before puberty, the voices of adults are very different from our own (more for boys than for girls). That must play a part.
• Wolof- Fuckin' irony, ol' man. Gum it over a while. That would be the "have it and eat it" disease, I believe, aka "disavowal".
• My maturity peaked when I was 26. Not sure if or when I will see another spike.
• No wine ever worried whether it was cool or mature or whatnot. Time is what's needed. And making the most of it. From everything i've read, and despite protests to the contrary, you *all* are pretty cool anyway.
• The FPP-linked Gladwell piece is included in Life stories : profiles from the New Yorker, (ISBN 0375503552). It's a wonderful book. And as far as mentioning age in a news story, I believe it's valuable. Newspapers are some of the best I-was-there reportage available to us, and who can't resist focussing on a story concerning someone exactly one's own age? When one goes back into news archives, and finds articles about a women of 25 with six kids, all of whom are working, yes, I'd say everyone's age is relevant. And we're fodder for history, all of us living now.
• The term cool is just so subjective. No one's ever going to agree 100% about what/who is or isn't cool. And I don't think people can make blanket statements on age-appropriate behaviour/lifestyle/expectations, because that's pretty subjective and subject to vary too. If someone did a casual experiment and lined up, say 3 people in each age group from 19-65, I doubt you'd get all 3 people in the same group agreeing across the board on almost anything, where as there'd probably be 25 year olds who share the same views with 50 year olds and on and on. And honestly, who really cares how old anyone is anyway? It's what you do with your life experience. At 20, I was convinced I had hit the apex of life and I devised a little "escape plan" for 30. When 30 came and went, I apandoned my plan. At 34, I realize I'm still on the bottom slope and Ive got an interesting journey ahead of me. I've gone through a number of really shitty experiences that have shaped me into what I am now - finally at peace with myself. I wouldn't trade my last 14 years in for anything in the world. I feel like I'm finally becoming a fully-molded person. It no longer bothers me what people think of me. I'm by and large incredibly happy with how I turned out. If that makes me old and uncool, sign me up! And for what it's worth, there is virtually no disparity between my mid-20s friends and my mid-40s friends. In my circle, we're all wearing the same clothes, listening to the same music, debating the same politics. Sure, we've all got varying lifestyles, but there are no age-ist attitudes flying around. Maybe I'm just lucky.
• Do you really think it'll be any different when you look back at 40 from the vantage point of 50? No. But that doesn't negate saying "I'm more mature now than I was then." If I get better from here - terrific. But I don't think that this statement, in itself, implies that the pinnacle is right now.
• Amusingly enough, I was just defending young people from the charge of being too sensitive to my thirtysomething friends in a discussion based on this article. I remember people who couldn't handle criticism in my cohort in college, and I don't have enough exposure to folks in the 18-25 age group to know whether the article is true. But some of the comments in this thread make me wonder. I haven't changed my cool rating (low to nil) since I was in college, but I have come to terms with not being cool. What amuses me most about k3wl kidz nowadays is having watched my junior high, high school, and college fashions in clothes and music get revived. Some of these fashions were painfully dumb when I was a kid and they still are. On the other hand, I am not on anybody's bandwagon when I listen to 80s music, because I never stopped listening to it in the first place. Oh, and I don't like belly shirts because they don't look good on me. I also don't like butt floss, aka thongs, because they're uncomfortable, and have been told by younger folks that I must be ancient and wear high-waisted cotton granny panties because I don't like their hip underwear. Not that my husband is complaining about the comfy lacy things I buy at Victoria's Secret--I'm pushing middle age, not the grave! If hikikomori doesn't like my underwear choices, s/he can stay out of my pants. /37, uncool, and not worried about what 19-year-olds think
• Wolof- The point of saying something ironic is to have it be true and not true at the same time. (See). C'mon, ol' man, get with the Soren!
• I have been reading this, and I have a question... I apologize if it's a (further) derail. But I have noticed people saying that they thought, at 20, that they were at the best point in their lives and it only went downhill from there. But I am 20, and uncomfortably aware of just how young I am. So my question is, did/do a lot of you monkeys have this experience of thinking it'll all be downhill at around my age? I guess I can attribute my own attitude to life experiences, but I'm just curious. I don't know very many people my own age, so the question doesn't really come up.
• I can only answer for myself, but when I stated I thought 20 was the apex, I didn't mean it in a good way. I just thought life was just so hideous and only going to get worse, that I honestly thought that at 30, I was going to hang up my hat. A lot of it had to do with things like, oh, undiagnosed depression...But, I finally realized what a mess I was and found a doctor to work with, got medication, and over the years learned a lot of coping techniques that make me extremely happy that I stuck it out. But, like I said, that's only speaking for myself.
• shandrin, I can say without a doubt that my early twenties in no way represented the high point of my life (nor did the time before). though it all depends on what your definition of "high point" is, and what you really want out of life.
• shandrin, my 30s have been infinitely better than my 20s, although I had no idea they would be when I was your age. When I was 20, I wasn't thinking this far ahead. There are things I wish I'd done (e.g., getting a Eurail pass and bumming around Europe) that I never got to when I was your age. Don't worry about which part of your life is/will be the best. Concentrate on making this year the best year of your life *every year*.
• Wolof- The point of saying something ironic is to have it be true and not true at the same time. So you're saying "I am fucking cool" and "I am not fucking cool" at the same time? Only one of these statements can be correct, for the reasons outlined above.
• To clarify, I'm really just wondering what you thought about it when you were my age. I am inordinately curious about how people think, what they think, why they think it. This subject caught my interest. And immlass, last year was the best year of my life, no worries there. And this one will be too. Plus I've quit being such a lurker on here, that's fun too. ;)
• I am, of course, the epitome of cool. I even wear my sunglasses at night.
• I'm waaay beyond cool, I'm hottt! at least, that's what I thought many, many years ago, when I was 20.
• I was happy in college, but I didn't realize it until after the fact. I hadn't been happy in a while, and I don't think I really grasped what it meant. And I had no concept of the future at all. Although it went downhill for a while after that, it wasn't all downhill. And I think I'm better off now. I was told constantly in high school that your teenage years are The Best Years Of Your Life, Forever, No Exceptions, so I figured there was something wrong with me because I wasn't enjoying myself at all. Naturally this is BS, and every person's life has its own ups and downs; not everyone is going to be at their peak in high school. But that's what was indoctrinated, that only high school mattered and the rest was just boring drudgery. One-size-fits-all doesn't work in this case.
• Wurwilf- Do you not understand how irony works? Ok. So, to get all pedantic and -uncool-, the statement would be read as an obvious overstatement of coolness (especially regarding what I had written above it), so it's not meant to be true. And yet, by saying it, I would appreciate the creation of the notion of me being cool. The use of irony in humor comes from its ambiguity. Of course both contradictory things can't be true at the same time, but irony would be the act of positing that they both were and leaving the reader to his or her own devices in sussing out the truth. Are you any clearer on it now? If not, like I alluded to above, you may want to check out Keikegaard's thesis on irony, which neatly encapsulates pretty much every argument about irony that had preceded it (including the grandaddy, Socrates. In fact, the "I am fucking cool" can be seen in the same, if diametrically opposed, light as "I know nothing."). Although, Keirkegaard is unfair to Schlegel. (A banana for anyone who catches the reference, especially this far downthread).
• Wurwilf- Do you not understand how irony works? Does it work by arguing with wurwilf when you should be addressing wolof?
• Hurrah!
• Zing! Got me.
• What part of "cool is not something you award yourself, it's something others say about you" don't you understand? All of it, apparently.
• Oh, and while we're wheeling out the educational messages, consider spelling Kierkegaard's name correctly if you're going to cite that misery as an authority on anything. But by all means, keep digging.
• Wolof- It was a fucking joke. What part of that do you not understand? And hey, you can rebuke me for the spelling, or you can address what I said. If you had the brains to do the latter, I'd expect you would. (Or did you not mean for this to turn into a pissing match? Because if you keep telling me to keep digging, I'm going to assume that you're too dumb to understand what I'm talking about.)
• I don't get it.
• HEY YOU LEAVE MY BUDDY SOREN OUT OF THIS FELLA!!1! Hope yr well! If you had the brains to do the latter, I'd expect you would BEEP! Minus several millions points for not recognizing VERY intelligent if somewhat irascible fellow when you see one. (Not to say that you are not).
• I'm not!
• How could anyone have possibly said that high school was supposed to be the best years of your life? Haven't they ever seen any teen movies? Everyone knows highschool is a whirling morass of depression, hormones, yearning, straining against authority and painful awareness of the futility of life. I mean, that's what it was designed for, wasn't it?
• I have chocolate-chip granola bars at home. I'm going to eat one later today.
• My girlfriend and I were talking about this just the other day. Apparently, some of her coworkers were watching Wifeswap or Keyparty or whatever the "reality" show is, and one family had two girls and they roamed the country in an RV. My girlfriend's coworkers were palpably irate that the children didn't get to do things like go to high school basketball games or to the Prom, saying that the kids were going to miss out on the best experiences of their lives. It kind of illuminated why exactly my girlfriend hates working with them. At least my parents were pretty good about deflating the whole "best years of your life" thing.
• High school was the best years of your life in the days when, immediately after graduation, you went to war, got a job in the mine/mill, and/or got married and started squeezing out kids a la Al Bundy. As I mentioned above, some bemoan the lack of an "adult ritual" in these days. I am thankful every day for escaping that kind of "growing up."
• "adulthood ritual" that should say.
• High school only becomes "the best years of your life" on that very last day amid teary speeches and uniform-signing and "We had such a great time over the last five years, remember that time you accidentally called the teacher Mom and the whole school laughed at you?" That's how it was for me -- the faux-nostalgia on my last day, I mean. I never called a teacher Mom. I called her Nana.
• I didn't go to my last day at school...
• I'm going to assume that you're too dumb to understand what I'm talking about Wow, you really *are* cool!
• If you had the brains to do the latter, I'd expect you would. (Or did you not mean for this to turn into a pissing match? Astonishing. In one sentence you dished out personal attack; in the next you accused its target of trying to start a pissing match. Just, wow.
• What is a pissing match? Do you, like, try to see who can hold it the longest? You can become incontinent that way.
• I thought it was all about distance or height up the urinal wall jb (not that I've ever participated in one...). A strong steady stream is your friend in life.
• The loser is the one who drowns first.
• *musing how she missed all this* Although I made a comment elsewhere about cool being of my generation, I meant to be facetious. Now I'm wondering why anyone would try to trap something as transient as the definition of cool into some rigidly defined box. It's an expression that is embraced differently by each generation and individual. I'll be 55 in a few weeks and have never felt that life was starting on any downhill slope. When it does in some concrete manner become so, well, that's just another life stage to learn from. Personally I like MJ's words about it all. Cool just...is. Or isn't. What does it matter anyway? So...blow me.
• There was an old Simpson's episode on last night, the end of which has Marge asking the kids about "cool". Googled: Marge: Am I cool, kids? Bart and Lisa: No. Bart and Lisa: Good. I'm glad. And that's what makes me cool -- not caring, right? Bart and Lisa: No. Marge: Well, how the hell do you be cool? I feel like we've tried everything here. Homer: Wait, Marge. Maybe if you're truly cool, you don't need to be told you're cool. Bart: Well, sure you do. Lisa: How else would you know?
• The Simpsons are still on TV? Cool! Or, maybe not. I'm confused.
• Wolof: So, I was right. You didn't understand it. (And your cool assessment would mean more if you were, in fact, cool. Since you've said you aren't, your opinion's kinda irrelevant, isn't it?)
• Well, Wolof is actually Dannii Minogue. Of course he's fucking cool.
• I'm cool, You're cool, Arguing about it.. Is playing the fool. nah, nah..
• Gee, I wonder if I was employing irony? The world's so complicated! Mind you don't poke your eye out on any "dangerous music"!
• Tracicle? There's folks going at it here too???
• I'm cold
• Wolof- I know that you were going for sarcasm (though you could have at least bothered to be funny along the way). But it was a dodge away from responding to the argument seriously. Perhaps I need to ask you to explain in your own words what I was saying. It seems a little condescending, but really, you don't seem to be keeping up. Perhaps you had heard it was uncool to catch onto things, and you're rebelling against comprehension.
• Nobody's cool. Now everyone shut up and go to sleep!
• Or else! *giving the look*
• Hey, this is the bit where I get the last word. I'm changing the subject to Newtonian physics, and if you don't like it then you'll have to leave the thread.
• Only cool people like Newtonian physics.
• Newtonian physics is so 1700.
• Jeez, this is the slowest developing fight ever. Can you two just call each other syphilis-tipped cum bubbles and get it over with?
• What I am saying is that there is an entire class of speech acts which are impervious to irony. J. L. Austin coined the term "performative" to describe them. When you say "I do" to the celebrant, it doesn't matter whether you're being "fucking ironic" or not, you're still married. When you make a false customs declaration, saying "I was being fucking ironic" won't make a jot of difference. Is that plain enough for you, or do I have to impugn your intelligence, your literacy skills, and your educational level? These seem to be some of your favourite rhetorical strategies.
• I've really been more into quantum physics lately, I think it's a lot more interesting. Do I have to leave the thread now?
• recovered memory from middle school: there were two cool kids named Drew Levy and Matt Berkey. Another kid named Nick Saglimbeni wanted to be cool, so Drew and Matt agreed they would "certify" him if he passed a series of "cool tests" - basically humiliating tasks they made him do. The final "cool test" was that Nick would have to (of his own accord) tell them he didn't care about being cool. Pretty clever for 7th graders, I think. Nick never did become cool, as far as I can remember....
• I nearly failed physics. I took it, thinking we would study molecules, only to find out that was chemistry. 9am class with chronic sleep deprivation didn't help. So I only understand physics up to about Galileo - I think I'll have to loose the thread because Newton is too advanced for me. Though I did meet someone who was editting the Newton papers at Cambridge. She's an alchemist.
• Sorry, I meant, leave the thread. I've already lost it.
• I can't comment, I've already left the thread. College-level physics made me cry.
• I got it! What goes up, must go down. For every force there is an equal counterforce. A floating body displaces a umm, er, equal amount of what it's floating in? Physics was, like, so long ago, yeah?
• Speaking of cool, it was so cold this morning that when I jerked off I almost stabbed myself with an icicle formed outta my own jizz.
• That would have made for some confused CSI dudes..."What, exactly, killed this man?" "Um...well...given the victim was found with his sex face on, and in a puddle, the evidence seems to indicate he was a soggily sadistic self-molesting suicidal contortionist with a disdain for condoms, but we'd like to run a few more tests".
• Don't forget that a body in motion stays in motion, unless acted upon by an outside force! Good ol' inertia. How did I miss all this 'till now? It was a great read, especially from a different 19 year old's point of view. Oh, and I'm definitely not cool...ArchE major who spends most of his time in front of a computer or playing ultimate frisbee.