February 09, 2005

• Maybe introduce him quietly to other religions via books about other cultures, like India, China and the Middle East? Maybe when he sees there's a variety of opinions out there he'll lighten up. Maybe if you just calmly tell him you don't believe what he does, ask him to stop and leave it at that.
• He even tries to guilt me with the death of my youngest son. Telling me that Jesus is the one who takes care of son now, and if I don't believe I will never see Kyle again holy shit bratcat. Does his mum know he lays this on you?
• My eight-year-old niece occasionally pulls this on me. At Christmas we were watching "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat" and she commented that she didn't like the costumes on Potiphar's wife and her entourage because "it showed their privates and it meant they were sinners, though everyone's a sinner, especially you, because you don't go to church, you bad girl" [this was accompanied by a finger wagging]. She's is a little too programmed for my liking. I've thought about it and decided the next time she says anything I'm going to have a talk with her about how not everyone feels the same and people don't like being preached at, she wouldn't like being preached at because she wasn't Muslim or Jewish, etc.
• I don't want to burst his bubble about religion. I don't feel it is my place. I'd disagree. I think it is your place to engage him honestly with your views. This will be good for him, and might be the only bit of sanity he has to look back on for guidance when he's dealing with the consequences of a too narrow religious upbringing later in life.
• Hmmm. Are his family 'evangelical', in the broadest sense? As in, you don't have to tell him that you think his religion is "a hoax", but you could potentially educate him about how not everybody believes the same thing, and that that's generally an okay sort of thing. But you'd rather that sort of lesson came from his mother or grandparents. Are they the sort of people who'd be willing to teach their child that, or do they believe that he's entirely right to try a bit of soul-saving? If they don't think, as a matter of faith, that it's their son's right or duty to spread the word, then you'd be perfectly justified in politely pointing out that how he's behaving is both annoying and potentially hurtful - not just to you, but to anybody else he might do it to. Do emphasise the 'hurtful' element - his behaviour has gone beyond childish naivete into something that's totally socially unacceptable. If, however, they don't believe that any distinction can be drawn between believeing and proselytising, then you have a bigger problem. Either you try to tell the kid something about your beliefs behind his immediate family's backs - bad - or you have to confront them and risk them flipping out - also bad - or you might just have to tactfully withdraw from close contact with them for a while - also also bad. It's a tricky situation.
• Atchafalaya, I tried to tell him I don't believe what he is taught is correct and that I don't wish to discuss it with him, so as to upset his mom and grandparents. I told him he needs to talk with his mom about religion not me. He won't read anything unless someone stands over him. He has dyslexia. He is relentless, like a fire and brimstone preacher boy. I finally got him to be quiet last evening by saying to him, "I am not going to discuss this anymore, just leave it be Jaron." Which is what I always say in the end. Yet every time at least once or twice a week he comes to visit and we have this same scene. Quidnunc kid, I haven't talked with his mom about the guilt trip part. I think I will.
• Talk to the parents first before you start in with the kid. Let them know the situation, and let them know it ain't welcome. If they won't take care of it, then I think it's your time to sit down with the kid and have an honest talk.
• I would sit him down, and firmly yet kindly tell him that while you appreciate his concern for the well-being of your soul, it is not polite to discuss politics, race, or religion with elders until he is wiser (i.e. older), or with people he doesn't know very well. This is a lesson which will serve him well in life, as first impressions can be very important with teachers, employers and co-workers, not to mention other non-nuclear family members. Of course, first mention to his parental units these occurrences to see if they have any advice which would be specifically applicable to their child, and to give them the heads up as to what you will be doing. (I personally wouldn't ask their permission, as I don't see that you have to) After all, you're not trying to stop him from believing in the church, you're just attempting to have cease pushing those beliefs on you. At the tender age of 7, he is very impressionable and I've seen kids fly apart at the handle (with other kids) over beliefs as simple as Santa or the Tooth Fairy. Hopefully, as he gets older he'll learn to accept other tenets and viewpoints, or, at the very least, learn when not to speak to people so fervently about his beliefs. Depending on how the conversation with him is going, you could also change mid-stride to the "I do believe in a higher power, which you call God, and I live my life the best I can, trying to adhere to the 10 commandments as often as possible." There's really nothing wrong with the commandments, IMHO, pretty much common morality.. and try to leave Hell out of it as possible...
• That being said, he is 7, and I assume you are much older than him. You are admirably trying to treat him with dignity and respect, but you could simply tell him to "Shut up, or I'll smack the shit out of you... You want to see Hell? I can show it to you biatch!" While slowly removing your belt/reaching for a wooden spoon/etc.
• If a seven year old is misbehaving, you need to talk to the parents. Tell them honestly that you would rather not engage in this conversation with a 7 year old, that you feel it is inappropriate for him to be telling an ADULT what to think/do/feel. After you communicate this, say the following, word for word "Will you talk to your son and instruct him to not engage in these conversations with me?" If the answer is "yes", the next time he starts call his parents and ask them to come and pick him up, let him know that you love him, but since he is not following instructions given him by his parents he must go home now. If the answer is "no", then you need to either suck it up and ignore him when he engages in this conversation (my guess is eventually he would stop), or let the parents know that you will not be babysitting or visiting with this young man any longer until they are willing to respect your wishes. If they refuse to answer with a yes or no, then they have some serious parenting and/or interpersonal problems that they probably should address in therapy. The kid has a serious problem, and I'm guessing that the parents do too. crap...that was harsh!
• quidnunc ... I think I will Yeah well much love sweety, that's quite incredible naive tactlessness of the little dude.
• yeah i agree, get his parents involved. this is misbehavior, pure and simple: you have told him not to do something, he insists on doing it. he must be taught to respect adult orders, regardless of whether he's talking about religion or poking the cat's eyes out with a stick.
• I think I would try a different tack. I would thank him for his concern, tell him honestly that I don't believe, ask for his prayer (perhaps one day he might realise that it's a load of bollocks), then talk to him about the leaven of the pharisees. Tell him his prayers are his and God's secrets, and see if he shuts up. If that didn't work, I'd take it to his parents - forcefully, and insist that they take their son in hand. If that didn't work, I would disown that branch of the family. I am serious in all the above.
• and, on preview Bratcat...you may have to "step on some toes" to solve this, and that isn't all bad. When you are the only one to acknowledge and address a problem that everyone else is avoiding or can't see, it will probably make someone unhappy. They are avoiding it for a reason... Be strong..everyone will be better for it.. and.. My thoughts are with you regarding the your son... been there, done that... the hardest thing in the world.
• ... although, you are going to burn in Satan's vile bottom-hole, so maybe you should just ritually murder him and drink his blood. But, hey, it's up to you.
• not to upset his mom and grand parents, is what I meant in my last comment. She's is a little too programmed for my liking Jaron is too programmed for my liking too. Abiezer_Coppe, I have tried to impart not all people feel and believe as he does and that is all part of having individual rights. It doesn't seem to make any difference to him. He is firm in his belief. Like a parrot of his family. His mother is not so bad, a tolerant soul, but so tied to her family afraid to rock the boat. His grandparents and great grandparents are evangelistic. His other uncles and aunts are too. I am the odd man out. Flashboy, they believe in saving souls and if you don't believe they have no qualms about telling a person what is in store for them in hell. His family for the most part doesn't talk religion with me, we rarely see each other. My connection is with him, his sister and his mom. Yes a very tricky situation.
• I love you monkeys. Everyone has some good input here for me. Quidnunc Kid I think I love you most :) Lots to think about. Thanks for the suggestions.
• Afterthought/ Sometimes I suspect his grandparents are encouraging this behavior, they know how much those kids mean to me and they know how I feel about religion. It is a way to get *God* in my life. HuronBob, thank you for your words and thoughts. A heartfelt hug to you, yes it is the hardest thing in the world to deal with.
• Remember that logical thought doesn't kick in until about age 12. He's probably just doing what the grandfolk do because he likes them. I agree with the "politeness" approach - that's something you can both discuss and work on. When he starts on it a "shhh" may do. And that guilt trip stuff is SO out of line, good greif. And we all love quidnunc, so get in line but remember not to feed him. Awww man he took the last of the peanut butter again.
• Pete... I read that sentence three times before I realized you meant so... I was like "And the guilt trip stuff is significant other out of line?" What the hell does that mean?! /hijack
• Remember that logical thought doesn't kick in until about age 12 A lot of kids grow out of the religious fanatic thing eventually. My husband, a confirmed atheist, was a devout Catholic as a lad. So don't despair for the future, and try to be kind in the present, difficult as that will be. Try to be the only rational influence in his life.
• Take this up with his parents, first. And let them know, politely, that if they don't deal with the problem then you will.
• Ask him to show you the part in the bible where Jesus sticks his nose in other people's business and tells them they're going to hell. If I remember correctly, the only times he does that is when he's putting the radical religious zealots in their place. Maybe 7 is a bit young to try to reason with him though, but maybe you can get him to be more like Jesus and less like his obnoxious grandparents.
• On preview, I think I sounded a little too evangelistic myself. I am not one of them. I just think you should use the bible against him. It's surprisingly easy to do. Like koko's husband, I too was brainwashed into being a devout catholic as a child. They tought me just enough about the bible to figure out that they were way off, and I've been free ever since. :) There's a nice passage somewhere in the gospel (google says luke 18:10 but there's probably more than one) where some obnoxious pharisee was praying loudly and making a show of what a good little pharisee he was, and Jesus told him to shut up and that no one cared how religious he was, least of all god. The moral of the story is shut up and keep your faith to yourself because jesus said so. Tell the little pharisee to put that in his pipe and smoke it.
• AHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! that's sooooo FUNNY! maybe you should smack him and tell him YOU're the spawn of the devil, and you're gonna take HIM to hell if he mentions this one more time. or just smack. I would.
• I bet I was a lot like your nephew as a kid, bratcat: bright, wants to be able to hang out with the adults and have intelligent conversation, but isn't quite sure how. I was also raised within an evangelical church. The way my mom and dad (who were not religious -- it was my grandparents who took me to church) got me to stop talking about hell was to say "I'm so happy that you love me enough to be concerned about this. But, remember that Jesus said you're not supposed to judge people, you're supposed to love them. You lead by example and by love, not by nagging and arguing. Plus, it's horribly rude to tell people that they're going to hell." Then my parents further explained that if I wanted to act like a child, they'd treat me like one, but if I wanted to act more reasonably, they'd allow me to interact with them and their friends like a rational being and not a dumb kid. (My dad took too much child psychology, so every disciplinary action was accompanied by a looooonnng discussion.)
• Disavow him in the strongest possible terms of this now. Offer to read his bed-time stories. I recomment 'The Blind Watchmaker' by Richard Dawkins. Get his parents to sit in too. If I were you I'd have gone absolutely ape by now (now pun intended). You are a free thinking adult and should not be getting lectured and emotionally tortured (cos that's what it is) by this child, no matter how much you love him. I admire your restraint in coming here first. I certainly would not have bothered.
• I was brought up Catholic, and whenever we said anything along these lines (e.g. about someone going to hell) we were told we were making a sin of presumption and that judgement was God's alone to make. Can you use this? You should be able to couch it so it doesn't sell out any principles you have about buying into his particular view of christianity.
• I'm fairly well known among friends and family as a long-time agitator on such things as religion and politics.... mainly because whether I agree with them or not I do my best to show them the flaws and holes in their arguments and beliefs so that they know that almost no position is 100% airtight and perfectly defensible. So the choice in the blank spots is whether to approach those spots with agnosticism or faith. And neither is necessarily a better or worse choice so long as the person knows where rationality leave off and unfounded faith (or admitted agnosticism in the proper sense of not-knowing) comes in. Unfortunately, only the very rare and very bright 7 year old can analyze their own beliefs like that. For that matter, many adults can't analyze their beliefs like that, either. Here's what I might do. If I couldn't get him to shut up about it, I'd grab a bible (if handy), and talk to him about the beatitudes. Where does it say "blessed are the pushy evangelists?" I wouldn't put it in so many words, but the kid needs to know that Jesus as far as my knowledge of the bible is concerned, wasn't too heavy about the fire and brimstone. You gotta read Revelations (or to a lesser extent, Daniel) for all that sort of prophetic goodness.
• I was raised a southern baptist and could count on one hand the sermons I heard that had the Beatitudes as their main text. Evangelicals in my experience pay lip service to the words in red, but take most of their text from Paul. Who, let's face it, had issues.
• Dude, I hate McCartney as much as the next guy - but keep it in the superbowl thread.
• But what if God were one of us?
• Totally right, TenaciousPettle. More evangelicals could do with a reminder of what Jesus actually said. Hence my contention to many of my friends that modern Christianity is actually the Cult of Paul masquerading as a religion about Jesus. /sorry for the off-topic.
• I like Matthew 6:5 for these sorts of things, that's the "Be not like the hypocrites who pray on the street corners," bit. As a matter of fact, most of Matthew 6 is good. Remember, they probably think KJV is the only right version, so if you do go this route, keep their preferred translation in mind. I've seen this played out in my own family. My aunt married a Baptist and her kids told my Catholic grandmother she was going to hell for idolatry. I hate to say it, but she eventually just had to cut ties with that side of the family. (It turned out to be only temporary, as my aunt divorced him after he was cheating on her with at least two other women. Morality says 'whoops.')
• I suggest a slightly different tack with our young missionary here. 7 year olds aren't completely without logic - they just understand basic concepts differently than adults. I'd thank him for trying to help you, but explain that finding religion is something you have to do by yourself. You *could* just say yes to his preaching, but you'd just be cheating him and yourself. But, if you become religious on your own, then it'll be for real. 7-year olds will understand the idea of "cheating", and you just might get the respite you need if you tell him that you're just trying to find religion the "right way." Note: I do not endorse prosletysm at all, or any specific religion over another. I'm suggesting this ONLY as a way to stop the kid from harassing you while avoiding causing a family fight.
• Interestingly enough, cobaltnine, the KJV isn't the most popular, mainly because (let's admit it), many Christians across this country aren't very well educated, and KJV English is above the capability of many ot understand. The New International Version (NIV) is incredibly popular. I've been out of the Xtian loop for a while and I hear there's a newer version of NIV? This was translated to be understood by non-HS graduates. The New American Standard (NASB) was more popular among the college-age Christians I knew, apparently because the translation was closer to literal and not as steeped in the simplified vernacular. New King James (NKJV) and other translations are also fairly common. It actually depends on the individual church and their demographics. If they have a disproportionate number of College grads and professionals, they tend not to use NIV.
• Once children understand that there is right and wrong, they get very serious in finding and enforcing the "rules". This period lasts from about age 6 to, perhaps, age 12. How many kids do you know that are militant about telling you that smoking is bad, for example? I used to hide my grandmother's cigarettes and tell her she was going to die if she didn't quit smoking. (Then I became a teenager and started smoking myself.) As a child starts to figure out the world around them, the simple things are what stick. Save the planet by recycling; drugs are bad and will make you sick; grown-ups have sex and when you have sex you make a baby. You can't really explain the shades of gray in a way a child this age will grasp. They really tend to see only black and white right now. If he thinks people must believe in Jesus or go to hell, that's it, and he will not hesitate to "enforce" the rules he knows - it's the beginning of learning to order and catagorize the world. Reasoning with him probably won't get anywhere until he is older. I would think the best way to handle it right now is to keep your responses simple and closed, and don't let him argue it with you. "Every person's relationship with God is between him/herself and God alone, and it is no one else's business", "Only God decides who goes to hell and who doesn't - that is not your job", "It is not very Christlike to judge other people", and so on. Also an appeal to emotion, which kids understand quite well: "When you say things like this, you hurt my feelings, and that is not nice or right", "I don't want you to talk about my son like that because it makes me sad and angry", "You are not being very considerate of my feelings by continuing to discuss this", etc. And if you're comfortable doing it, even though it sounds dismissive, "it is inappropriate for children to preach to adults" or "I don't think it's very respectful for you to talk to me this way when I have asked you to stop, and I won't allow it" is certainly acceptable. Make it quite clear and consistant that this is the line and he is not to cross it. Talk to his mother so she can reinforce the same views. No matter how preachy his family might be, one of the bedrock rules is to "respect your elders", and they should be understanding of your desire to draw that line. You are in no way undermining their beliefs by asking for your nephew to behave properly towards you as an adult. Good luck - this situation would bother me very much also.
• bratcat, It would be a shame if this child is being used as a way to convert you, as you alluded to before, if that's the case then open discussion with the family about the boy's actions may prove to be not only a daunting task but exactly what they want. This could lead to a number of different options: 1) Open frank discussion about your beliefs with the boy and his parents may allow you to set the record straight about what you believe and how they need to respect that or risk ostracizing themselves from your life. Or 2) this option is pretty unlikely but hey... It might open their eyes to the fact that there are other ways to live happily in this world and the fire and brimstone sermons from a child might stop.
• I like Matthew 6:5 for these sorts of things bible smackdown! yeah!
• Children should be inquisitive and playful at that age. A seven year old has no business being introduced to the concept of hell. A child at that age would not understand a physics book, a Thomas Pynchon book, or the Bible. Let children be children. The parents should be admonished.
• I read you were a pretty shit-hot scripture-quoter at that age j.c.!
• *steps away from quidnunc, keeps watchful eye for flying brimstone*
• hey jesus tell us about your childhood! not much on that out here.
• For more on J.C.'s childhood, read the Infancy Gospel of (IIRC) Thomas, found in The Complete Gospels (a collection of non-canonical gospels). It's a hoot -- little five-year-old J.C. killing other kids and striking his teachers with blindness. Poor Joseph just doesn't know what to do with him.
• You have a duty to teach this kid a little something about tolerance and open mindedness. It's obvious that he's not getting it at home. Be honest about you opinions, without belittling his, and you could have an incredibly positive impact on this kids life.
• mid, really? i always wondered if jesus was indeed the Son Of God
• I'm with Skrik. Tell him to take it into the closet, like Jesus said to do.
• Thanks again for all the monkey input. First order of business is talk with his mother, who is also my niece. I don't wish to have a family feud, but if it comes to that, then so be it. Reasoning with Jaron doesn't work, like others have said he isn't ready to grasp the logic of it all.
• Or you could rock his little 7-year old world with an old timey favorite of mine. Just bait him into saying the God is all powerful and all knowing, and then launch into the clichéd: "Oh yeah?! Well if He's such hot shit... I dare his punk ass to strike me down right this very second! C'mon biatch!!! Do it!!!"
• bratcat, be ready for the "but we're just worried about your everlasting soul" response...
• Well, SideDish, I think the short answer from a believer would be that he didn't reveal himself to be the Son of God until he was grown. But it is a matter of debate among religious scholars. However, yeah, there are actually a few non-canonical "infancy gospels" from the church's earliest days, the oldest and best known of which are in that compilation. I singled out Thomas just because it's so damn hilarious. There's a great scene where Jesus is walking down the street, when another kid runs past him and accidently bumps him on the shoulder. Jesus looks at him and says something like "Your path ends here," and the kid falls over dead in the street. Most definitely not the Jesus you learned about it Sunday School.
• Some may contend, SideDish, that not only did the people around him not know he was the Son of God™, but that he himself did now know it until much older. The Gospel of Thomas notwithstanding, Kazantzakis raises some interesting ideas along these lines in The Last Temptation of Christ, which is not in as much opposition to orthodox teaching as it may first appear.
• I would go with something similar to what Melinika suggests. The issue isn't what you or you nephew believe or don't believe, the issue is that he's hurting your feelings with his behavior. As difficult as this converstaion might be, I would try something like this: "I have something very serious to discuss with you. Are you listening carefully? Okay, good. When you talk about God and the afterlife and hell, it makes me think of my son, X, and how I can't be with him right now. It makes me very, very sad. I love you very much, but when I'm sad its hard to play with you, because I just want to sit and cry (or whatever you really feel when he talks that way). I know you want me to go to Heaven, and I know you want me to be able to be with my son, X, when I die, but that's for me and God to work on. For now, I need you to stop talking about God and Hell and that stuff, so I won't be so sad when I'm with you. Can you do that for me?" If he says yes, make him promise, then when he breaks his promise, which he will, because he'll forget (7 year olds are like that), just remind him gently, "Remember, that hurts my feelings, and you promised you wouldn't do it anymore". If he says he can't stop talking about God and so on to you, listen attentively to his reasons, address them as best you can, but then say, "If you can't stop hurting my feeling this way now, then we need to work on that. You need to learn how to stop. So until you learn how to stop, I'm going to do X when you hurt my feelings by talking about God and hell". X is whatever consequence you have decided on in advance. The consequence should be small, but not negligble, and something there is no doubt you have the right to do, such as turning away and not speaking to the kid for 5 minutes. If the nephew cannot promise outright, and you are going to need to use a consequence, you should tell the parents about the problem and the consequence. In that discussion too the problem is not their faith or your lack thereof, but your feelings and how the nephew's behavior makes you feel. Anytime they bring up religion or your soul, the answer is, "I want you to know I'm really touched by how much you care for me and want the best for me, but that's between me and God. The problem right now is that all this talk makes me very, very sad, and makes me miss my son". Good luck.
• If he's circumcised, you could always tell him that that means he's Jewish, and he shouldn't be so sure about that heaven bit. That ought to keep the little turd spinning for a while.
• As religion is one of the more polarizing topics, especially to those who are emotionally immature, I would recommend utilizing whatever conversational skills you might have gathered since you were seven years old, and gently change the subject. Attempting to modify the young man's spiritual beliefs, or teach him lessons in manners or morals is a job for his parents; And frankly, if the worst he does is attempt, as he likely understands it, to save your soul, then I would accept his juvenile attemps at proselytising as a token of his affection and good will. You may be sure that he will soon enough find that the world is groaning under the load of people who will leap gleefully onto any opportunity to take offense at expressions of faith. You need not add to their number.
• MonkeyFilter: keep the little turd spinning for a while /GramMa
• As religion is one of the more polarizing topics, especially to those who are emotionally immature... You talking to me, MightClaw?! Huh?! HUH?! Well... I'll show you who's immature :-P There! /transference
• I think krebs cycle has it: he's old enough to learn consideration for other people's feelings, and by phrasing it that way you're focusing only on how he makes you feel which should be something he can empathise with. Good luck.
• he didn't reveal himself to be the Son of God until he was grown HOLD IT. then what were the three wise men doing bringing him all those gifts when he was born, and following that star above him? hmmm?
• Well, really SideDish, how hard would it be to raise a kid knowing he was the son of God? Joseph tells Jesus to eat his peas, and Jesus is all "you're not my real dad!" So you'd maybe keep him in the dark for a while.
• That revelation only went out to an elect few, if you'll recall, and not to the world at large. Mary and Joseph then went into hiding to avoid having JC killed, and the Magi left the country after the birth, for fear that Herod would kill them. But as I said, this is a topic of some debate.
• Joseph tells Jesus to eat his peas ah, yes, the Holy Peas Incident.
• I grew up in a very loving, ordinary family. We were not wealthy. My parents never told me that I was the Son of God. I was the son of my parents. I had dreams about the Father, figures from Scripture, and preaching since I was a very young child. I was fascinated by the stories and passages that I would hear from Scripture. When I was a teen, I had a friend who worked in the Temple and he would allow me to sneak in and read Scripture. I spent many hours in there studying, and even handwrote a copy for myself over time. I attended the services regularly, and began to become disillusioned with both the people who were worshippers as well as the people who were claiming to represent God. I knew in my heart that I understood the Scripture and the Father's will better than they did. I could sense that there was a big change coming, but I did not know that it would come from me. I felt a strong calling many years later and began to fulfill the dreams that I had as a child. The rest is loosely documented in the four Gospels.
• I thought you was a carpenter... can you make me a cabinet? I need it 6' High x 3' Wide x 1' Deep. Thanks!
• oh... and praise Jeebus.. Our father, holy caspers, and something about an apple tree on fire.
• Don't believe everything you read in the Bible.
• Still, if you are a carpenter, are you still in practice? Do you get a cut off of the WWJD stuff?
• My parents never told me that I was the Son of God Did they never tell you that you would grow up to be some weird crank on the internet, like the rest of us?
• Tracicle said "I think krebs cycle has it: he's old enough to learn consideration for other people's feelings, and by phrasing it that way you're focusing only on how he makes you feel" This may not be how you meant that, but I just wanted to note that giving anyone the power to control your feelings ("how he makes you feel") is not a good thing, nor is it a good thing to teach a 7 year old that he has that power! We are responsible for how we feel, don't give that away, by giving that power to others we also give up the personal responsibility we have for our actions. However, I agree that everyone should be considerate and respectful of other people. (there, NOW I've put that 6 years of college to good use!)
• Smack him with a bible.
• Show him the video here
• meredithea and SideDish: So then tiny Jesus knocked his bowl of peas off the table, thereby fulfilling the prophecy that he should be the cause of Peas on Earth.
• *needs healing after that one*
• Once again thank you monkeys for your input. I will see the little *turd* tomorrow. I spoke with his mother today. Her and I are on the same page. Perhaps my little preacher man will learn something. :)
• According to some theories of child development, seven is the age when children are just beginning to figure out logical thinking. (Piaget calls this 'the period of concrete operations'.) So it's not too surprising to find your seven-year-old nephew trying to solve some of the logical problems created by his religious upbringing. From what you say, it sounds as though he is genuinely concerned for your welfare. He knows that you are a decent and kind person, but he is aware that you don't go to church, and he has noticed that you get uncomfortable when asked about your religious beliefs. He is afraid that God will be angry with you. He doesn't want anything bad to happen to you, and he is trying to protect you. (But of course, being a seven-year-old, he is expressing all this in a very immature way, without fully understanding your own feelings and emotions.) Here are a few things that it may be helpful to bear in mind: 1. Don't assume that this is all about you. It may be a very indirect way of asking you for guidance about a problem that is worrying him. 2. Don't think of this as 'misbehaviour'. It is the normal behaviour of a bright seven-year-old trying to figure things out for himself. 3. Try to take him seriously, and answer his questions as honestly and thoughtfully as you can. There is a huge literature on the psychology of religious development in children, some of which can be Googled quite easily and might be of help to you. One theory holds that children go through the following stages: (1) thinking that God is all-powerful, (2) thinking that God can be bargained with, (3) thinking that God is 'up there' and doesn't interfere in day-to-day affairs, (4) thinking of God in more metaphysical terms. See this article for a few more details. You may not agree with any of these theories, but the basic point is important:-- a seven-year-old's idea of God is not, by any means, the same thing as an adult's idea of God. One further piece of advice: 4. Try not to treat this as a disciplinary matter. Do you really want him to get the idea that he will be punished or disciplined if he shows any inquisitiveness about religion? Do you really want him to associate religion with silence and repression?
• Good Bratcat! Sounds like there will be a postitive resolution. I was worried for you.
• I've seen this played out in my own family. Me, too, only with mine it was AA. This kid is indocrinated. I wonder who is pulling the strings? Seeing the world through only one vewpoint stunts imagination and growth, and I'm glad his uncle and mother are concerned.
• I just have to say, this was the best thread I think I've ever read. Special props go to JC for his thoughtful contributions. ;) And bratcat, best of luck! Hope everything turns out well. Nothing to add that hasn't already been said on the topic.
• Try not to treat this as a disciplinary matter. Do you really want him to get the idea that he will be punished or disciplined if he shows any inquisitiveness about religion? Do you really want him to associate religion with silence and repression? SlightlyFoxed, thanks for your input. I never thought of this as only disciplinary issue, I was concerned as to how to get him to stop without it being a big ass issue and causing hurt feelings all around. I have no problem with people having religion, if it makes their lives better. I do have a problem with anyone who gets in my face about my own beliefs. I don't want to discuss my beliefs with a 7 year old. It would lead to too much confusion for him and possible repercussions with his grandparents and great-grandparents, not only for him but for his mother and his sister and for me. You monkeys gave great input, I appreciate it. After discussing this with his mother, and expressing my concerns about Jaron's inability to understand my stance, she has agreed to sit down with Jaron and discuss these issues with him. I passed on all your input to her, which she appreciated. Her parents, my in-laws, and her grand-parents are the hard core bible thumpers, she believes but in a more liberal way. She was unaware of Jarons behavior. The only discipline issue she and I have is Jaron's lack of understanding in respecting my request to leave the the subject be, and quit with the zealous attitude. I am glad she was open minded enough to listen and understand. i tend to forget the whole clan are not zealots.
• just eat him.
• This may not be how you meant that, but I just wanted to note that giving anyone the power to control your feelings ("how he makes you feel") is not a good thing, nor is it a good thing to teach a 7 year old that he has that power! I'm not sure I agree with this: I'd say it's vital that a child understands the power he or she holds towards someone's feelings, and that a child who cannot empathise emotionally with an adult, or another child, has separate issues that should be dealt with. Kids need to know that words can hurt and that it isn't cool to hurt the people you love. It's applicable to so much of life.
• I was that 7 year old kid. At that age children are very trusting take religion very seriously. I was absolutely terrified of judgement day, and I can tell you that placing my trust in Jesus didn't really make me feel better. Put me in the "educate him" camp, but first you have to figure out how to appeal to him. For me it wasn't being educated about other religions that opened my mind, it was my natural curiosity about how things worked. I was introduced to a book about the history of science that fit evolution into a long story about advances like newtonian physics, internal combustion engines and long bows. This book opened my mind to other possibilities and fairly quickly convinced me of how ridiculous blind faith is.
• WWJD?
• He'd let Carl from Accounts come back to ME, you bitch!
• oh shit sorry wrong thread
• Tricicle.... I understand what you mean about the power of words, and that children need to be taught that as well. My comment was meant to reinforce the fact that we all have the choice as to how we respond to words. When we give away the control of our emotions we are less of a person. I just think that it is critical that we own the responsibility for that choice. A good example of this is when I hear from the kids I work with something like "He made me SO mad I had to hit him."...the first step here is to teach him that he didn't "Have" to hit the other kid, the next step is teaching him that he also had a choice as to how he responded emotionally. I really believe that if we teach a child that he or she is so powerful that they can control the way an adult feels, and thus, possibly, the adults behavior, we are creating a monster. (terrible images of kids wanting candy at the checkout counter! "If I can make mom sad/embarrassed/frustrated I WILL get that candy!", the mom that wins this little battle is the one that just looks the kid in the eye and says, "no" and goes about her business, that behavior will soon be nicely extinguished.) It all comes down to accepting personal responsibility, the more we communicate to others (or to ourselves) that we are controlled by others, the more we can excuse our behaviors. And the less likely that we will turn into manipulative individuals. If anyone else wants to borrow this soapbox, feel free! I think I'm done with it! :)
• darn... Should have read "And the more likely we will turn THEM into manipulative individuals."... sorry!
• hmmm... Jesus = carpenter, Jesus = popular. Harrison Ford = carpenter, Harrison Ford = popular. Harrison Ford is Jesus! This explains so much!
• I must say I agree with both points of view. You have to teach kids that words can hurt, and that decent people do not try to hurt or control others with their words. HuronBob's right though, in that the wise adult refuses to allow a child to manipulate, and nips that behavior in the bud. I never had a problem with my kids in the store, because I was more than willing to say a resounding "NO" and ignore their pitiful cries. (and there were further discussions when we arrived home)
• I see what you mean now, HuronBob, and the point's well taken. :)
• gosh, I love conversations with reasonable people that will actually read and consider other viewpoints! :) Let's just keep those metafites out of here! shhhhh! our secret!
• He's seven years old -- he probably stuill believes in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy and other imaginary beings all in the class of Jesus and friends. The next time he ambushes you, just tell him that everything he believes in now is nonsense, and that one day he'll reap the benefits of resenting his parents for foisting such utter claptrap on him. That, or sacrifice him to some greedy pagan god of bloodlust and hedonism.
• I remember when i was seven years old i used to go around and yell outrageous things just to see if i could get that *funny* look from the grownups. Because there's yelling and there's yelling. Yelling "poo-poo head" usually got a mild irritated expression but yelling "fuck" always got a nicer heightened squirmy reaction. Once i was through yelling i'd go play with a toy or set fire to something. Another popular tactic is to remove all ones clothes and start running. This is not something i ever did, because i wanted to preserve my dignity.