January 19, 2005

• moneyjane I think the sexual aspect does change things. I thankfully have no experience in this area but my gut reaction to the idea of being beaten senseless by six guys is not as strong as my reaction to being anally or orally raped by six guys. That could be some very deep-set homophobia but I would bet most homosexual men would react the same.
• Metafilter had an incredibly interesting thread on how we deal with trauma addressing many of the issues you raise. I highly recommend it. My reaction to this kind of trauma lies somewhere in the middle between your two choices. I've never been raped and I would venture to guess that you can't know how you'd react until it actually happens to you.
• This makes me think of times I've mentally criticized people for saying things like "I felt so violated" when, for instance, their apartment has been broken into, due to exactly the perceived distinction moneyjane is talking about. Very provocative question, mj. From my gut: I think there is some real distinction between a non-sexual physical attack and a sexual physical attack. I think that perhaps, when there's a sexual component to being attacked, it strikes at somewhere deeper in your core, in your self-identification as being of a certain gender, than is so in the case of non-sexual attacks.
• I think rather your experience has made you more personally resilient to the effects of rape, not unfeeling. Everyone's personal experience will color how they respond to traumatic events. As a sex worker you are forced to confront your own sexuality and become comfortable with it, and to some extent depersonalize it. Like any job, you have to gain an ability not to take the bad events too personally. This is a healthy buffer response, not a disability. I think in the majority of cases, a person would be much more traumatized by the dual sexual and violent violations of rape, then the purely violent assault of a beating. A sexual violation is often considered a much more personal violation than a beating, and thus carries more psychic trauma even if less physically debilitating. There will of course be exceptions. A single beating to a fragile personality might cause never-ending life long fear and stress, or it might shatter a personality dependent on belief in it's own personal physical strength. Rape would of course be more traumatic to someone relatively privated and uncomfortable with their sexuality.
• "Rape would of course be more traumatic to someone relatively privated and uncomfortable with their sexuality" Nal I think I am about as comfortable with my sexuality as I can be without being arrested for walking naked in the mall but rape still looks someway worse than a non-rape beating.
• moneyjane, offhand, without having read any of the above comments, I am thinking it has to do primarily with the social stigma of rape. I am sure that there are many times that a non-sexual beating or assault are every bit as traumatic as a rape might be, but perhaps the relative lack of shame or vestiges of "what was she wearing?" that still linger around the rape issue, the victim of the beating feels more free to acknowledge feelings/share/process/seek healing and therapeutic outlets etc... in my mind, this merely underlines the importance of continuing to work on changing societal attitudes about rape. I imagine (I am lucky to say that I dont know) that a rape victim might suffer a great sense of isolation that could hinder the healing process. eradication of social stigmas and "blame" around rape would perhaps alleviate that.
• As someone mentioned in the MeFi thread, rape seems to be more about power, while assault is more about anger/lack of control. To 'fess up, I was recently assaulted by a drugged out relative, and while I spent a couple of days alternately crying and shaking uncontollably, I'm ok now. But a sexual assault? I dunno, since sex is something that I do with people I trust, the violation of that trust seems that it would be more drastic. On what may seem lesser scale, that relative stole all the things I had in storage that I loved. It was a power trip on his part, and kinda of scares me more than his trying to drown me. More like being raped as far as I can tell. I've said too much.
• Well, men can be raped, too. Being anally raped by another man is quite scarring, I'm sure. I would guess that most people, regarless of gender, would prefer a simple beating to a brutal rape. But there are different kinds of rape--some definitely worse than others. I was acquaintace-raped when I was 14 by a 28 year old man. It was rape, because I didn't have a choice, but it wasn't violent. It bothered me, but the long-term scarring has been pretty minimal. Now, having someone attack me on the street and force their way into my body, god, it's the stuff of nightmares. It think part of what's so distressing is that the rapist gets inside of you. And the rapist takes something ordinarily happy and good--sex--and makes it something ugly and painful.
• Having been a recipient of some violent, non-sexual assault last year that I fought back against, I can speak for the mental and emotional ride one takes for a few months afterwards. It does suck but you move on with life and learn not to chase shadows at night. Having said that, I am sure the seuxal nature of an attack not only inflicts what I went through but also affects the sexual side of that person. I've dated women who've bounced right back from rape and others who cannot have sex to this day without busting down in tears. Just in my experience there is a difference in how the two different types of assualt play themselves out over time... but whether or not that is some "... 'victim forever' perception supported virtually unchallenged across great swathes of North American society." is not for me to answer but for some monkey's doctorate dissertation. And one that I would be very interested in.
• Moneyjane, I think I know what you're driving at - without wishing to in any way downplay the horror of rape, or sexual abuse, or any such violation, I do experience a knee-jerk reaction against the seemingly unquestionable assertion that "rape is the worst thing that can possibly happen to a person". I question why it is necessary that such a statement needs to be made so frequently, and why questioning it should seem to place one automatically into the realm of bigotry, or at least insensitivity. Is the fact that rape is a brutal, violent obscenity not enough to condemn it? I don't question that for many people, rape will be the worst thing that happens to them. But in the vast spectrum of human cruelty, it seems implausible to isolate one specific act as being necessarily the worst; as such, statements of that sort sound more like rhetorical devices. Of course, if such rhetoric is genuinely necessary to combat any concept of the 'acceptability' of rape, then I wouldn't complain. I just wonder what attitudes and anxieties it shows towards underlying conceptions of rape that such approaches seem necessary.
• Moneyjane, your question seems to assume that only women get raped. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
• Just to clarify Nal, This is something I thought years before I ever got into the sex trade. I guess to distill it further, being raped is bad enough without what feels like an obligation to society to take on victim status as well.
• No, I'm not assuming only women get raped; I'm trying to simplify what is already a pretty complex question by removing the enormously complicating stigma of male rape - however, that too is an interesting aspect of perceived damage as well.

• Well, men can be raped, too.

  Yes, but that's most common in prison, and is generally considered hilarious, unlike raping children or women.
• moneyjane as I said I think rape is different from other forms of violence I also think that victim status can be forced on people or used by people as a hiding place. Someone very close to me was repeatedly raped as a child but she has steadfastly refused to take the victim role. So no I don’t think you are odd not to feel obliged to be a victim.
• Info
• Brave post. First off, I don't know anything about being a victim of violence or rape. But here's what I see. I don't agree with the premise that the victimhood thing has ever taken over our culture. It's still newsworthy and controversial. People naturally reject that vision of themselves -- which is usually good, and maybe for a few denial queens, bad. However, very rarely, I have seen people get sucked into a victim identity. They start perpetuating their own rage and hurt, in order to keep winning support from their new friends in the victim support group. It's a terrible vicious circle, one that can be exploited by people selling books or running what are essentially little cults. But generally I think you can trust in people to naturally heal in their own way. A lot of people quietly drop the victim identity when it no longer works for them -- you just don't see them on TV.
• "Well, men can be raped, too. Yes, but that's most common in prison, and is generally considered hilarious" rodgerd I’ll make a note to avoid your posse.
• I'd agree with some of the above sentiments, that rape is indeed far more of a violation than any kind of normal assault. It is about power. I say this as a person who's definitely had the shit kicked out of me a couple of times; it's physical pain, not much else. Sure, you get sketched out because you were 'assaulted' or whatever, but it's nothing like how I'd feel if I were raped. I dunno, since sex is something that I do with people I trust, the violation of that trust seems that it would be more drastic. I'd sort of agree... sex is something that happens in our everyday lives and is quite personal, and I would not akin rape at all to a physical attack (which really is purely physical), more I would akin it to something like a brutally emotionally manipulative attack (non-physical). Sex is far deeper in the psyche than a ruff and tussle with a drunk guy on the streetcorner. But that last statement seems to totally reduce my argument about all violence to a black or white thing - it's absolutely not. I've known women who were raped and I've known women who were emotionally destroyed by assholes... and while rape carries a stronger social stigma, it is my friend who never had a hand laid on her that I feel has suffered the worst trauma from another individual. What I guess I'm trying to say is that there are fucked up people in the world that do terrible, fucked up, horrible things to others... it is no good trying to quantify trauma as if "this is worse than that", and instead we need to be working torwards bettering humanity so that all of this shit can end, or at least, not be so commonplace.
• It ain't my posse, it's the norm in Western society in general, and the US in particular.
• rogerd. I'd agree that US society does not take male rape seriously but to say they find it hilarious? That’s just too sad to think about. Sorry for the de-rail MJ.
• I think that some of the difference has to do with the fact that during a beatdown, your exterior is being violated but rape is a violation of your interior, closer to the central core which makes you YOU. I don't like the use of this word in regards to rape, but it is a more intimate violation than a beatdown, more of an attack on your identity. Not sure if I'm saying that exactly the way I mean it.
• You're helping me get closer to what I'm trying to ask - things are changing a bit, but rape is often, as flashboy noted "the worst thing that can happen to a woman". My question is, why? Is it the worst thing that can happen to a woman or rather the worst thing that can happen to a particular society's women?
• Nal I think I am about as comfortable with my sexuality as I can be without being arrested for walking naked in the mall but rape still looks someway worse than a non-rape beating. You have mistakenly assumed a comparison in my comment between what was actually just examples of different personality types. ------------ Perhaps, MJ, the sense of sexual awareness that allowed you to consider the sex trade also allows(ed) you to lessen the difference in your personal sense of violation regarding rape vs beating. Note that I'm not suggesting that you're lessening the trauma of rape, but rather the difference in trauma between rape and purely physical violence. The issue of 'victim status' is certainly a serious one. A victim of rape generally incurs much, much greater societal assumptions and pressures than a victim of pure violence. Yet another one of those wonderful human qualities where rather than making things easier for the potentially more greatly injured, we make things more difficult. Next up, building steps into buildings with level entrances, so those damn whining cripples won't be able to get in and bother us.
• I'd personally beat the holy living fuck out of anyone who I was able to identify in a rape or a beat down. I have found that the old saw "revenge is a dish best served cold" to be true. Although I have never been "beaten to a pulp" or been raped, I have been fucked over royally and I have a couple of paybacks just waiting on a shelf and I can wait, and wait and wait... Ask all my friends and they will tell you I am a very nice person, but cross me or the ones that I love and you are fucked, period.
• A victim of rape generally incurs much, much greater societal assumptions and pressures than a victim of pure violence. Yet another one of those wonderful human qualities where rather than making things easier for the potentially more greatly injured, we make things more difficult. I very much agree, and I do think you are right in thinking the same aspect of myself that could lessen the personal impact of a rape could allow me to consider the sex trade more readily than another could. I hear ya Squid. I am wired the same way - you fuck with me and mine, and you are in the ground. Not pretty, but works for me.
• Is it the worst thing that can happen to a woman or rather the worst thing that can happen to a particular society's women? It's unavoidably both. In varying degrees. Rape is an intensely personal violation of a person that is unavoidably personal since sex is an extremely intimate and unavoidable reality of human life. The degree of individual personal trauma will relate to each individual's personal sexuality and psychology. Society is, at its roots, about mutual protection. Us against the outside Other. So any personal violation will be felt and reacted to by society. The more personal the violation, the deeper the societal reaction. The actual way and degree each separate society reacts will be tied up with all sorts of intertwining factors, such as attitudes towards women, or homophobia.
• I was raped quite violently as a teenager by someone I was dating. A couple of years ago, I narrowly escaped being shot by a client at my former job. To me, the effects were quite different, but equally changed me. Being raped by someone I trusted made me hypervigilant around people with whom I was intimate. Being threatened with death at my job made me hypervigilant in public places. I wouldn't say that one of those situations affected me more than the other, just differently. I am uncomfortable talking to people about being raped. They seem to think that I am broken somehow. When I talk about having been threatened with death, they think I am brave. I don't think that many people realize that in some ways being subjected to sexual violence has had positive effects on me, too. I am a much more understanding and tolerant person now because I know that a lot of us have invisible scars that shape who we are and how we act sometimes. I don't pretend to speak for everyone who has been through similar situations.
• moneyjane, you might find this article an interesting read. [OT-ish] A stranger once tried to, um, orally rape me at knife-point after a night in a club. I refused to do as he wanted, on point of principle, and he ran away rather than stick the blade in. I still think it is the bravest thing I ever did, and am enormously proud that when the crunch came I chose principle and stuck to it, even with a knife at my throat. Not sure what that contributes to the discussion, but I'm not traumatised anyway. Oh, and I'm male too - I also didn't beat the shit out of him on principle :) [/OT-ish]
• I am uncomfortable talking to people about being raped. They seem to think that I am broken somehow. When I talk about having been threatened with death, they think I am brave. That's it, in a nutshell.

• but rape is often, as flashboy noted "the worst thing that can happen to a woman"

  I find this idea wierd. Surely being dead beats it, unless one has in mind some sort of marvellous afterlife that is better than being alive.
• Why do people rape in the first place? Is it driven by a sexual urge or a violent urge. Personally, I have trouble fathoming how one could derive sexual pleasure with an unwilling partner. Mutually benefitial pleasure is one of the best parts of sex. To me it is a deeper violation because it is more than physical brutality. It is taking something immaterial from a person by force. Taking a source of pleasure and using it against a person. I'd say that a coping mechanism would be to attempt to distance one's self emotionally and view it as a purely physical act. However, not everyone can do that. I don't think that one way of dealing with rape is more valid than the other. Rape (and sexual violence in general) is more than just phyiscal violence. To use an extreme example, look at what happened in Abu Ghraub. There is an emotional/psychological component to sex that sets sexual violence apart from physical violence--that was the whole point of employing those techniques. This is an aside, but something I found interesting because it was not discussed really was the fact that with the photos of torture were also photos of the soliders having sex with each other. I'm assuming they were taken during the same time span. I don't know what it means, but it doesn't seem independent from the rest of the events at the prison.
• Foucault knows.
• Why do people rape in the first place? They say it's all about power. --------------- To expand on a point Rogerd raised, A stranger once tried...rape me at knife-point...I refused to do as he wanted, on point of principle...I still think it is the bravest thing I ever did..am enormously proud...I chose principle and stuck to it But was this the best respect for the value of your own life? Would it have been better to consider oral sex as a minor act of little personal physical cost and no more psychological cost than one personally allows it, and then after the immediate threat is removed, picked up a handy blunt object and beaten your attacker soundly for their affront? I am not questioning or trying to lessen your choices. I'm honestly curious as to which might be considered the 'better' choice. Can there even be a 'better' choice, or are the greater human factors too far beyond individual control or influence?
• Rape is not 'an act of sex'. Rape is most basically an agreesive act of sadism, where the intention is to use another person as if they were an object for the rapist's personal convenience; it may also have as motive the intent to inflict lasting damage on an enemy, as was the case a few years ago in the Balkans and more recently at Abu Ghraib. Rape is always about ME, ME, ME and the hell with you. It is about denigrating another person. We all know it isn't just physical damage which is inflicted in rape -- there's a psychological component as well, while for the victim there may be (for women) issues of preganancy, and for all victims, issues of disease and medical attention as well. I haven't run into any man who regards rape is 'hilarious'; I have met quite a number it's actually happened to, usually in childhood, usually by a family member or some person in the victim's own community. One way people have of handling a stressful topic is to joke about it. To joke about a subject understood to be alarming or unpleasant is not necessarily the same thing as finding the subject hilarious. Strikes me as more akin to whistling in the dark. Jokes can reveal what we fear but not necessarily who we are.
• =agressive Feh.
• Nal, that was me - and respect for my own life was exactly the point. I'd rather take the hit than compromise the things *I* believe are truly important. Non-violence, and not submitting to violence, are important to me. That night I found out *how* important. Obviously your decision may have differed from mine.
• Please let me repeat that I was not questioning your personal choice Gamecat. I may very well have made the same choice, though for slightly different and possibly less noble reasons. I'm simply questioning the choices. Can there be any 'better' choices in such a situation? (I mentioned Rogerd in the original post because he raised the issue of death vs rape, and you provided a profoundly personal example.)
• I am uncomfortable talking to people about being raped. They seem to think that I am broken somehow. When I talk about having been threatened with death, they think I am brave. So, from an individual standpoint, the means by which one can deal with the aftermath of rape versus simple physical violence are affected by the way one's society views both the act and the victim. The poor injured person versus the forever defiled soul. Rape is as much about power as it is about sex but the two, I think, are inextricably entwined, in both our psychological makeup and our genes. The use of rape or sexual violation as a weapon of war has been going on forever.
• Nal, I got that, I was just trying to say that for me that was the 'best' choice, but that everyone's 'best' might well differ. I don't think there can be such a thing as an objective 'best' in situations like that. It has to be subjective.
• Okay. How about the absolutely unspeakable idea of claiming that child molesting is not worse than a serious beating? The children are less likely than an adult female rape victim to be aware that something wrong is going on.
• Not that I've read the thread yet, but moneyjane, you make the most interesting posts.
• Why is rape perceived as somethjing forever scarring...? ew society: Don't think it is so much any more. Certainly less so than when I was a kid, or far more so than in my grandparents' day. You're right about it being a holdover from earlier days -- attitudes take time to change. re individuals: Some people are better than others at re-framing, which is one function, and can be a very useful one, of imagination. The sexual aspect of rape seems to enlarge the impact on an individual of violence -- why soldiers and authority/controlling types use it. Very dangerous for society when soldiers or police are permitted to do so without check or correction.

• I haven't run into any man who regards rape is 'hilarious';

  Clearly you've never listened to people yuck it up about the hi-larity of prison rape. Or the social approval of such as all being part of the prison experience. Put another spin on it, MJ: you've said sex work is easy and profitable. Why don't more people do it, rather than work degrading minimum wage jobs? Answer that, and you've got a large part of the answer to your original question, I think. I certainly don't think, though, that victims of rape are helped to come to terms with it by the legions of people who have invested a lot in it being the worst thing ever.
• I have to, to take advantage of the amazing monkey brainpower here. It's like a big banana-fueled answertron of goodness. On a more serious note, Bernockel, there are some who believe that psychological abuse of a child is even more damaging that either physical or sexual abuse, because a child dissasembled psychologically and emotionally by a adult before they are even able to establish a sense of self never recovers, while a child who is not psychologically damaged has a better chance of understanding sexual or physical abuse as something done to them rather than a 'logical' reflection of what they are.
• Regarding the specific question asked up front, you can count me as one who feels that power is a large part of it. You can theoretically win a fight. You cannot win a rape. Also, you can imagine administering a beating to someone who has beaten you up. A female rape victim is having something done to her that she cannot do to someone else.
• Bernockle, the child abuse question is an issue that is explored in the article I linked above. It's not all about war trauma, that's just the jumping-off point.
• Why don't more people do it, rather than work degrading minimum wage jobs? Social stigma. As it lessens, there will be many more who find their sense of degradation in any job should properly be a reflection of their own self worth rather than something foisted upon them by society at large. Many women will decide they feel *much* better about themselves having sex with a randy stranger for $250 an hour than being a waitress at Denny's for $8.00. Mark my words...
• I did not read your link. I do, however, subscribe to the New Yorker, so I shall dig up that issue and check out the article. Thanks. As a criminal defense attorney, I see the value that society places on various crime every day. And I do wonder at the relative disparity of it all. Talking about what makes one thing worse than another (and how much) is not something that gets discussed often. We just assume that the values in place are the right ones. It is enjoyable to be able to discuss issues like that here.
• Moneyjane, do you have any idea how many women that have gone into the adult business have been raped. The number is staggering.
• "Why don't more people do it, rather than work degrading minimum wage jobs?" Not everyone can. At one time I had no problem having sex in front of the camera. I still don’t but at 43 I would not presume to inflict my self on yall. To quote Dudley Moore “I like porn but I hate smut. Seeing me naked is smut.”
• Being the recipient of both sexually violent and just violent attacks, I would have to say the sexual attack has had a longer lasting, more prevalent affect on my life's workings. The attempted rape has made intimacy VERY difficult for me, as I still flinch when others just touch my arm. It can make it very difficult to start a relationship. Geting beat up has just make me strike quicker when threatening behaviour appears. Instead of waiting to get hit, now I am more likely to try to escape earlier or if I can't, prepare to get hurt, but still trying to get in a few on my way down. I think sexual attack is personal, where plain old violence might be a more impersonal thing. _ I agree with moneyjane, my sex worker friends were often much happier with things than my friends who worked in retail. It all comes down to your own sense of self. If you don't like yourself, you won't like your job. No matter what it is. It's a simplistc representaion, but it works for me.
• Moneyjane, do you have any idea how many women that have gone into the adult business have been raped. The number is staggering. True. But if being raped made you more likely to go into a particular career, statistically it would probably be motherhood. The numbers are indeed staggering.
• Huh?
• "Moneyjane, do you have any idea how many women that have gone into the adult business have been raped. The number is staggering." That’s true, but the business is also over represented by Jewish men and Catholic women. What’s the correlation?
• I'm a little chary of the stereotype that women in adult business are there because they've been sexual abused. Sullivan may not have meant it that way, but it's something I like to address when I hear it.
• "sexually"...yeesh.
• I also think that rape is about power, whereas physical assault can be about power (in the case of abusive parents or lovers) or just about being mad, or drunk and stupid. I was raped as a kid by a (teenaged) relative. I was fairly messed up about it for a decade, but at one point I realized that "ruining my life" was his objective. He wanted to exercise his power over me physically and emotionally, and make me believe I was worthless. (The very lengths he had to take to convince me of that idea convinced me that he was wrong.) The only way I had to thwart that was to live well and be happy. For me to be a-sexual and depressed means he wins. For me to be able to trust others (the hard part, admittedly) and celebrate my body and my sexuality means I win. Hard won information, but well worth it. Had he only beat the crap out of me, I don't think it would have taken me as long to figure things out.
• Moneyjane, as a former rape crisis (hospital) advocate, I'd be happy to discuss this with you via email. It's such a volatile subject, and I've had my fill of contentious arguments over at mefi today, I'm reluctant to engage it here. I will say that I, for one, belive that a component of the psychological damage that occurs to rape survivors is the result of the special status that our society gives rape, particularly and unfortunately relating back to certain sexist stereotypes of women and sexuality (not to mention the unique damage to male rape survivors relating to a different set of cultural attitudes). In other words, while I won't advocate involuntary disclosure of survivor's name in public as we do with the victims of other violent crimes, I do applaud the women (and men) that are public about it and release their names and treat it as if they were the victim of something closer to a typical violent crime and not something that brands them forever with the scarlet letter "R". That said, no matter how much I believe there is a strong cultural component to the special status that rape has in our society (and most others), I think there's some portion of it that's distinct simply because, as others have said, it's an attack on a part of a person that inevitably has a special status psychologically. I'm not totally sure where you're going with this--I only skimmed the preceding comments--but if you feel that if you, for example, are a rape survivor and that you don't react to it (or have long ago dealt with it) in a way that doesn't see it as something deeply special and forever scarring while other people keep insisting that you're lying about your internal state or otherwise trying to convince you that you've been eternally and deeply scarred...well, if that's the case, I support you and the fight against that attitude wholeheartedly. Sometimes people can further victimize someone in the name of helping them, especially when they think they know better than you (the survivor) does. On the other hand, I've seen lots of repressed trauma resulting from rape so... Well, it depends on the person.
• A couple people have sort of mentioned this, but I think there's also something relating to the double standards we hold (at least in America, not speaking for the rest of the world) regarding sex and violence. Look at the censureship issues that we have these days: people get torn apart in various ways on camera on TV all the time, but when someone exposes a boob during the superbowl the whole nation flips out. Now, there's a sort of chicken and the egg thing here; does this this double standard exist because of deep, psychological/biological issues regarding sex, or was the double standard there first and now things like rape are held on a different level than normal assault? I don't know the answer, although to be honest my personal inclinations lead me towards the former. There's a lot of emotion attached to sex from the start - mess around with it and I can see things getting traumatic real fast.
• This is an interesting discussion but to skirt around the issue I will just say: a) I am against "rape shield" laws or anything that deprives an ALLEGED criminal of his due process or makes a special case for trials involving one certain crime. Kobe bryant got off (no pun intended) because he was rich, had a great lawyer, and I'm 99.9% sure, didnt rape anyone. In another time he would've been lynched. b) the thing about "rape is about violence, not sex" is widely repeated, and I'm sure there's some truth in it, but logic tells me it CANT be that simple, it just cant. Surely there has been a time in history when a man raped a woman because he had a strong desire for sex and she wouldnt give it to him voluntarily. I think people dont want to talk about this b/c it gives rise to the argument that women who dress/act sexy are "asking for it," (which I think is total bullshit). But to be realistic, sexual desire MUST be a factor in at least some rapes.
• I have a much more visceral reaction of horror and anger at the thought of my sisters or nieces or ex-wives being raped than I do at the thought of them being otherwise physically assaulted. Rape brings out all sorts of very primal feelings in ways that no other act does. Maybe this is from societies' treatment of rape but it doesn't feel like it to me. It feels built-in. Prison rape is the subject of lots of "humor", some of it very mainstream, which infuriates me. It's "funny" because it happens to criminals and they deserve it.
• This is not really on topic, but I just wanted to say that some of the strongest, most mentally healthy, take-no-shit women I know are women who've been raped, and who have taken that anger and pain and turned it into a strength that they've used to fight violent against women. Something someone once said about having been raped: "You know, it's alright for you to be okay. You don't have to be broken. You're allowed to be fine."
• [Derail] Can men be raped by women?
• Anal rape with objects of a man by a woman do happen. If you are meaning can a man be made to have an erection against his will, and then vaginal intercourse with an attacking woman, if it is possible, it is very, very rare.
• Guess that's the idea MJ was after... society's attitude towards victims helping, in some twisted way, the rapist's goal: to demean, dehumanize, make the raped feel worthless and fragile the rest of her life. Take control of her being. Brand and categorize her forever. And that's what we as a society should be fighting against. And yes, I feel it's more of a control, of a power thing, over the sexual aspect. Many societies had as a custom the kidnapping of a potential bride, which, then sanctioned by marriage 'erased' the criminal act. As said, rape has been an integral part of warfare and conquests. Just another of the spoils for the victor.
• Rape's about coercing sex, stray. If a woman was, say, threatenening to kill a guy's kids unless he had sex with her, it's rape, for example.
• I don't have time to read all this thread, but my cursory thoughts were that rape could be seen as a beatdown plus a type of humiliation. So I wonder if you beat someone and humilated them in a non-sexual way, could the effects be similar to those caused to rape victims? I know that if I were raped (I am a man), I would simply plot my revenge and be done with it, and I don't think it would change my attitude toward sex (though I suppose I can't say for sure until it happens, which is not likely nor do I care to experiment). I can think of many worse things to do to myself than rape. Drop me an e-mail if you'd like to hear some of them.
• society's attitude towards victims helping, in some twisted way, the rapist's goal: to demean, dehumanize, make the raped feel worthless and fragile the rest of her life. Take control of her being. Brand and categorize her forever. Yes! Why don't more people see this? It's odd that despite so many advances for women, and so much study of sexuality and violence, the 'worst thing that can ever happen to a woman' idea remains with us, an ugly butterfly in a box, virtually untouched.
• "If you are meaning can a man be made to have an erection against his will, and then vaginal intercourse with an attacking woman, if it is possible, it is very, very rare." No, it's not as rare as you think. People joke about the impossibility of a woman raping a man via regular intercourse, but it's completely possible and happens fairly often. Certainly it's the most common form of female on male rape. The reason that it's possible is because a good portion of the sexual arousal system is automatic and built around direct physiological stimulation, not psychological arousal. A man can become erect, and a woman lubricated, against his and her will. In truth, the latter happens far more than people realize, mostly because it's never talked about. More's the pity, because this is well-known in rape counseling circles and is referred to as "body betrayal" because it deeply, deeply confuses the women who experience it. Even more so, given that it's thought that a man can't be raped by a woman in even a larger sense (all men want it, right?), men who are raped this way generally don't acknowledge to themselves or anyone else that they've been raped. Certainly they rarely report it or try to explain it to other people. Yes, men can be raped by women. It makes up a small portion of the clients that rape crisis centers see (those that will see men), but it does exist and there are a great many indications that it's the most underreported rape there is. Still, though, there's also every reason to believe that the relative numbers are small compared to man-on-man rape, which is far more common. "...and I'm sure there's some truth in it, but logic tells me it CANT be that simple, it just cant." This "truth" is an overstatement intended to rectify the equal and opposite tremendously harmful falsehood that rape is all about a man losing control of his sexual impulses (usually as a result of a temptestous woman). Most people involved in rape crisis and related fields and psychology will, at least, privately admit that obviously rape is partly about sex. The best way to characterize rape, in my opinion, is that it's an act of violence expressed sexually. The sexual component of it is real, it's part of what rape is. But rape is primarily about violence and power, and there's lots of data to back this up. However, I think it's also important (for those thinking seriously about these issues or working in this field) to recognize that there are varieties of rape and that they may differ significantly. Specifically, I suspect that certain kinds of aquaintance rape (which I do characterize as truly rape, don't get the wrong impression) may in fact be much more about sexual desire than other forms of rape. Particularly in the case of, say, adolescents. However, lots of aquaintence rape is clearly about a more covert form of power and violence than the rape we typically (and, by the way, wrong think of as "typical" being that aquiantance rape is much more common) think of as "rape"...but it's still about violence, not so much about desire. From my experience working with and knowing rape survivors, I really do feel that there's a huge amount of shame rape survivors feel that is cultural in origin. There has to be a way to recognize that this form of attack is deeply personal and, for that reason, particularly hurtful without at the same time validating the "damaged goods" and similar baggage that comes along with being a rape survivor. I personally think that rape shield laws may well do more to aggravate the problem than they do to help rape survivors. But it's such a difficult issue that I'm not inclined to adovocate for their repeal. I'm uneasy with them for these reasons, though.
• So I wonder if you beat someone and humilated them in a non-sexual way, could the effects be similar to those caused to rape victims? I wonder that too. We recognize the effects of trauma in rape victims and battered women, but if the trauma of a beat-down *is* similar there are a lot of people, particularily males, being left out in the cold.
• "I know that if I were raped (I am a man), I would simply plot my revenge and be done with it, and I don't think it would change my attitude toward sex (though I suppose I can't say for sure until it happens, which is not likely nor do I care to experiment)." Male rape survivors have many of the same sorts of residual problems that women do. You might consider that homosexual men are raped by other men, and will have the same sorts of residual problems with sex and intimacy that heterosexual women do that have been raped by men. But, furthermore, both heterosexual men and homosexual women that are raped by men also have many of the same sorts of problems that female heterosexual rape survivors face. That said, I still am in strong agreement with moneyjane and other that think that our society sees the rape of a woman to be something very unique and intrinsically damaging to a woman in some special sense. It's likely that men aren't going to have to deal with those sorts of issues. On the other hand, our society is very homophobic, especially with regard to men, and male rape survivors who've been raped by men are also "tainted", though in a different way. It's certainly nothing that men are willing to tell other people, particularly other men. "Yes! Why don't more people see this? It's odd that despite so many advances for women, and so much study of sexuality and violence, the 'worst thing that can ever happen to a woman' idea remains with us, an ugly butterfly in a box, virtually untouched." Because our society is still strongly sexist and the virgin/whore dichotomy still reigns in the unconscious. That's why this hasn't changed that much. Lots of things haven't changed that much. We've mostly managed to change the most superficial things. Deeply held and subtle (and not-so-subtle) attitudes are still ingrained.
• No, it's not as rare as you think Holy cow, I had no idea! I couldn't find a damn thing googling it - just some forums with people wondering the same, and the info they came up with from their own googling was scant to non-existent as well - basically all concerning ways to cause erection under duress by stimulating the prostate. Thank you for correcting that info.
• Thanks for a great answer, kmellis. In asking the question, I was looking for opinions. Personally, I firmly believe women can rape men (and I don't mean through anal penetration). It's an argument I've gotten into a lot recently-- many people don't seem to realize that our physiological reaction to stimulus is not necessarily deliberate, just as you say. [/derail]
• That was a most excellent derail, stray. It's uncovered another twist I hadn't even realised existed.
• stray: Another point, hinted at at by kmellis and hammered home in Kate Fillion's rather good Lip Service - is that as our definition of/understanding of rape has expanded to undue emotional coercion of some sorts of date rape, taking advantage of someone who's had a few to many, and so on, female on male rape is even more real. Although, as Fillion points out, it will most likely not be recognised because of deeply sexist notions about male and female sexuality. Another example that's beginning to gain profile is adult female/juvenile male rape; but again you can see where many people are when they suggest a 20-30+ year old female authority figure fucking a 12 year old boy is making him the luckiest kid in school. (A concrete example here was in NZ where a 20-something female swim coach was raping a boy in his early teens; her employer refused to fire her and defended it as a fuss about nothing. Reverse the genders and see what happens....) kmellis is, I think, quite correct in asertinbg that a lot of it is tied up with ideas that men are naturally sexually rapacious, while women's sexuality is still all about precious inaccesible treasure (a line of thinking adopted by an unfortunately large faction of feminist thinkers, who gain far too much political/rhetorical power from the awfulness of rape, and the badness of male sexuality to be especially interested in how such a stance affects women in the real world....) I seem to be ranting. I'll stop now, after I thank kmellis foran excellent post.
• Yes, thank you kmellis, for being so able to articulate some disturbing ideas, especially given your background in the field. Invaluable.
• a line of thinking adopted by an unfortunately large faction of feminist thinkers, who gain far too much political/rhetorical power from the awfulness of rape, and the badness of male sexuality to be especially interested in how such a stance affects women in the real world.... Well put. The only thing I hate more than being 'oppressed by the Patriarchy' is being backhanded by the Matriarchy.
• Rodgerd- This teacher that you're talking about-- I'm curious to know whether it was statutory rape (but with consensual sex), or nonconsensual sex. Either way, it's terrible, and I know that I am perhaps showing an unfortunate bias simply by asking the question, but I'm curious. Regardless, I'm stunned that the woman wasn't fired. A search for "teacher+sexual" on CBC.ca's news archive reveals over 500 articles about teachers from various Canadian provinces, of both genders, being tried for sexual assault of varying degrees. It looks like few of them were ever convicted, although all accusations seem to have been taken very seriously. If I had more energy, I'd go through 'em to see if there are any trends. Anyway, I agree very much that many of our gut reactions to rape are tied up with these engrained views of sexuality. I think society has managed to warp something natural into something very strange (I continue to find it strange that J.Jackson's breast on TV caused such an uproar. Most of us have sucked on one of those at some point, people). Women's sexuality seems to always be portrayed as either inaccessible (as you say), or just plain evil and bad. This shows up in our slurs, too. Cunt and Pussy always seem to be completely derogatory, weakening terms, whereas the male equivalents, prick, cock(y) seem to convey a certain arrogance, sure, but always pride. My personal experience with feminist thinkers, however, would seem to be very different from yours. Most (all) feminists I know, myself included, are very pro-sexual. Very much into celebrating the vagina. Very much into celebrating happy, good, consensual sex in whatever pairing makes you happy. Granted, the awfulness of rape, and of violence against women in general, is always going to play a part in feminist argument. Anyway, it's late, I have no idea what I'm talking about (coherent point, whhherrree arrrrree youu). Moneyjane, fabulous question. On a final note, I'd like to admit to doing exactly what you're talking about, moneyjane. Recently, it was revealed to me that several women I know, and work with, have been raped. Although I have infinite respect for these women, I momentarily envisioned them as broken, hurt people, who _must_ be caught in a never ending replay of this terrible event. However, I realize that if this were true, there is no way these women could do the amazing things they do. I know I wouldn't have reacted this way had I heard that someone had attacked them in a non sexual way. I've been engrained with the idea that rape is an ever lasting horror incomparable with other kinds of assaults.
• Last random thought, I swear. I'm shutting up. I used to date a guy who used rape as a regular woo hoo word, eg. "I totally raped that math exam". Ugh.
• A concrete example here was in NZ where a 20-something female swim coach was raping a boy in his early teens Ah, yes, I heard they had lots of sex in NZ, but I understood much of it was man on sheep action. Snarks aside, I feel I've been taken advantage of against my will a couple of times. It involved alcohol, and I wouldn't really call it anything like rape. But, you know, manipulated. At least I didn't get pregnant.* *Unlike a friend of mine, who tonked a girl once while under the influence and got a bill that he'll spend the rest of his life paying. Also, cheers, rodgerd.

• This teacher that you're talking about-- I'm curious to know whether it was statutory rape (but with consensual sex), or nonconsensual sex.

  Well, I'm inclined to think it's beyond a 12/13 year old to give consent in any meaningful fashion. I believe it came to light when he started showing typical signs of abuse (falling marks at school and so on). At that stage - last year, IIRC - it was still legal, thanks to gaping holes in our age of consent laws.

  My personal experience with feminist thinkers, however, would seem to be very different from yours

  It depends who you're looking at, of course. I'm thinking of the anti-sex/male brigade like McKinnon. Local examples can still be found in some Women's Studies departments at the local Uni. Some 60s feminists seem to have gone remarkably anti-sex, too.
• My great pleasure to be of any help on this issue, everyone. It's important to me. It's been a long time since I was a rape crisis advocate, but I learned a great deal and helped some people. But, I sometimes wonder if I've not done as much good in the years since by talking about these issues publicly and with a great many people. Also, a very large number of women have disclosed to me. Something that I can't say was pleasant (because the increasing awareness that more than half of the women closest to me are survivors of sexual assault, and that almost invariably when I talk about this in a forum where it's possible for a woman [who knows me at least as an acquaintance] is able to talk to me privately afterward...someone discloses to me. Sexual violence against women is everywhere and, I guarantee, has happened to women you know and love. That's a horrifying realization about the current state of our society). [continued]
• I don't want to give the impression that anyone knows for sure that there are huge numbers of men that have been raped by women via intercourse. But I can assure you that it does happen often enough for the rape crisis center I worked at to have encountered it occasionally. And, as I said, there's a boatload of reasons to suppose that it's a vastly underreported crime. And we know it's going to happen anyway because of what we know about human physiology and sexual response. But it's a (relatively) small problem compared to the matter of "body betrayal" that women experience (and it's related to it, obviously, because if we know that women commonly experience "body betrayal", there's good reason to expect that men do, too). I'd sure like people to come away from this thread aware of body betrayal, because the women that experience it, and many do, almost never talk about it with anyone (except, eventually, counselors and the like) and almost always feel terribly guilty about it; believing that it validates the socially ingrained idea that somehow she "wanted it" and all that other crap. Our bodies react to certain stimuli against our will, sexual stimuli included. A woman can get wet or even have an orgasm while being raped. That doesn't mean that it was a pleasant experience in any way, doesn't mean that it was any less of a rape, and doesn't mean that they "wanted it". Moneyjane, as a sex worker, could probably tell you better than most that it's possible to get physically aroused when, in fact, you have zero or even less interest. Even, sadly, when one is the object of violence. The confusion that this particularly problem causes so many women quite especially makes me sad. It plays right back into all the worst ideas and myths and attitudes about rape and perhaps more than almost any other single things, encourages guilt and shame. The other thing I hope that people get from what I've written in this thread is, well, the very thing that moneyjane posted it for: there are complex issues interacting in the psychological damage that rape does to its survivors. People vary. But a condescending, pitying "oh, you're so damaged, I feel so sorry for you" response to a rape survivor does at least as much damage as good, and in my opinion a great deal more. That's not to say that many rape survivors aren't so deeply traumatized by the rape that it destroys much of their lives, puts them in bad psychological territory for years, and they never truly recover. That happens. That may happen a lot. But it doesn't happen to everyone. And, more to the point, assuming that it happens to everyone and treating everyone with a condescending pity is more likely to create a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm not advising people to be nonchalant about it. I'm advising two things: One, to take your cues from the rape survivor. How do they view the rape and how it
• Sometimes I wonder why I waste so much time online. Then I see threads like this, and I realize it isn't a waste at all. We're working towards being better human beings. Kudos, kmellis - and here's to hoping that I (we) never have to put your advice into effect.
• the increasing awareness that more than half of the women closest to me are survivors of sexual assault This frightening statistic suggests a sickening and horrible corollary about men. Anyways, thanks kmellis!
• "This frightening statistic suggests a sickening and horrible corollary about men." As a man, I'm not comfortable with it and it makes me sad. Keep in mind, though, that it's not the case that each single rape or sexual assault is committed by a different man. There's many more victims than there are perpetrators, it's (I hope, hope, hope) a relatively small minority of men commmitting these crimes against so many women. But, I'm not exagerating. For whatever variety of reasons
• I agree that both assault and rape are about power. Road rage assualts are about exerting dominance over the road, bar fights are about establishing dominance at the bar, etc. I think part of the "scarring" difference between assualt and rape comes from the fact that sex is supposed to be pleasurable. Rape destroys that. The beating concurrent with the pleasure destruction is a much greater of a pain to bear than just a simple trouncing. I'd say another reason is that society has trained us that genitals are special and magic, and different from the rest of the body. People are very resistant to the idea that genitals are just another body part. For a person to change how they view rape, they first how to change how they view their own body.
• I don't know exactly how revalent this is, but: I think this question would be treated a lot differently if a man were asking it. A LOT differently.
• Not that I've read the thread yet, but moneyjane, you make the most interesting posts. posted by forksclovetofu at 03:53AM UTC on January 19 I completely second that. I didn't read the entire thread yet, but damn, MJ, thanks for being a member here. I like that you ask questions like this.
• I have nothing constructive to add here, but I just want to say thanks to moneyjane, those who had the courage to share their stories, and those who were able to lend their expertise. Notably kmellis, who taught me a few things I didn't know. If you get sick of the mess over there, your Ethereal self is always welcome here. As you were.
• I've always felt that common link between all kinds of physical violence. I, unfortunately, have been a victim of beat downs and child molestors. All things considered I turned out to be an OK individual, but I know people that are totally messed up by the memory of the experience (of one or the other)... I'm pretty angry, but matters have been settled within me, and the different people that did it got their just reward. And I'm now very far away from where it all happened...so, moral of the story? You'll get over, ONLY if you have the mental capacity and environment to help you out...otherwise, you'll porbably drown in your own nightmares.
• Mr Knickerbocker--genitals are different, don't you think? They are directly tied to sexual excitement because, well, they are literally tied to sexual excitement--nerves, blood vessels and the lot.
• Good discussion. I recall reading repulsive accounts of Muslim women being killed by their own male family members after they were raped. Maybe Western attitudes are not so far-removed.
• Male rape survivors have many of the same sorts of residual problems that women do. For what's it's worth then I'll start considering that I may not be immune to the effects. I should probably also say that even though I felt I was "immune" I would not downplay anyone's suffering. Trauma is trauma regardless. It might be that my overly vengeful personality is just daring someone to rape me, but I'll leave this sort of psychological quagmire for another thread.
• Thanks, moneyjane and kmellis! I think I was trying to make a lot of the same points as you, but in a much less eloquent way. In a lot of ways, I think that being sex-positive has only strengthened my sense of self. Dworkin and McKinnon had their moment in time, I guess, but their brand of "sex is always penetrative and thus always akin to rape" is ridiculous now.
• ...and I'm not making much sense. Maybe I should go have lunch :)
• I think this question would be treated a lot differently if a man were asking it. I think you are probably right. It's a complicated world.
• On this whole women raping men thing... I've had two very close male friends who were raped. The first lost his virginity at age 13 to a slightly older girl, drunk, in an apple orchard one night. He didn't have sex again till 18, and even now when we talk about it he clearly states that it was a "rape of some sort". The second friend was drugged last year at a party and woke up in the host's bed; she'd been hot after him for a while and made him the single drink he had that night, whereupon he blacked out till the next day. So yes, it does happen. Quite a bit I'd say... I once almost had sex with someone I desperately did not want to - again, it was alcohol and her dogged persuasiveness that almost caused me to make a terrible decision. In fact, now that I think of it, I can think of another old friend from high school I knew, who on New Years Eve junior year was drunk and lost his virginity to the local floozy. They hated each other before this, and he hated her even more after. Except, the whole school knew (we all knew about this girl's antics, she often talked loudly in the hallways of the boys she'd fucked that weekend), and it was considered 'funny'.
• I'm not seeing it--how would this be different? Are you both suggesting that if a man asked, we all would be more likely to make rape and physical assault equivilent? For me personally, whether it is a man attacking a woman, a woman attacking a woman, a man attacking a man, or a woman attacking a man--rape is rape. It is taking a source of pleasure (and personal choice) and using it against a person by force.
• Gamecat Finally got a chance to read your link to the New Yorker Magazine article and it's fantastic; to anyone following this thread, I really suggest you check it out. Now I'm off to the metafilter link.
• Wow...the Metafilter thread was a stunner as well.
• I'm a little chary of the stereotype that women in adult business are there because they've been sexual abused. Sullivan may not have meant it that way, but it's something I like to address when I hear it. I read a Rolling Stone article by Ian Gittler on the porn industry. He did a pictorial book called Pornstar. He was in a relationship briefly with porn starlet Savannah. After she commited suicide, he viewed the industry differently. Jon Dough told him stories about how his brother and him were molested when they were children. The horror stories go on. Dough told Gittler, ""No one ever tells the truth. I don't know why, but it just doesn't happen. Tell the truth. That's all you have to do."
• MJ great post, and Kmellis you rock too.
• Thank god I never had to go through this. People who are raped seem stigmatized in their own minds and in the minds of too many others. I can only wish them all peace.
• "I'm not seeing it--how would this be different? Are you both suggesting that if a man asked, we all would be more likely to make rape and physical assault equivilent?" No. If I had to wager a guess? I'd say that the hypothetical man doing the hypothetical asking would be flamed, marginalized, and insulted all to hell and back for daring to even think about relating an idea that possibly comes within ten miles of beginning to believe that rape might not be the absolute worst thing on the face of the earth to anyone of any gender. Because, obstensibly, there would be no way for him to understand, being the proud posessor of a different set of dangly bits. However, this is just my guess. I could well be wrong.
• You might be right. But, you see, thinking in these terms
• "You might be right. But, you see, thinking in these terms�where you assume the worst about others" ...you're new to this "internet" thing, aren't you? ;-) "ironically and tellingly, you're condemning." And you were doing so well, until you screwed it up right here. I'm not condemning anything. I'm stating that this is likely how I think things'd turn out if the one asking the question were a man, and why I think they'd turn out that way. We now return you to your unnecessary, but somehow regularly scheduled, jump to conclusions.