January 07, 2005

• How funny, I literally just finished reading this article when I clicked over to MoFi. I had to wonder how we really know these men are actually straight. The reporter did say that everyone except the owner was straight, but then did she have some way of verifying that? I mean, did she fuck them? And even if she did, does that really make them straight? Anyhow, I hope more of this sexuality morphing happens. Our societal models are far too restricting as it is.
• I don't see this as morphing, or even blurring. I see it as doing 'anything for money'. The site owner is taking advantage of college students' lack of funds, and profiting from it. It's sad.
• Rocket, that's a valid point of view, but, i'm sorry, you can throw $2000 at me, and the most that I'll physically be capable of doing with a girl is playing with her boobies...for the boys who take the bet, there has to be some type of sexual thing going on. But then again, that also validates the point of "are they really straight"...and then, what is straight? it's a freaking rabbit hole.
• Rocket88, there are plenty of ways for desperate 'straight' college-age men to make money besides this. Let's see, there's drug dealing, gambling, throwing illicit parties, raves... Really, if they HAD to have sex with other men to make money, they could just be common prostitutes and have sex in a private hotel room or house where no one would be the wiser. I think willingly having sex with other men on film where thousands or millions of people will see them, potentially even their own friends and family members, hardly qualifies as taking advantage of the poor. The guys who do this want to do this - period, end story.
• My favorite columnist on the subject of changing sexual mores, David Steinberg.
• I used to go to school with a guy who payed his way partly with weekly visits to the sperm bank. That guy has probably fathered about fifty or so kids by now. It's consensual, yeah, but I get a creepy feeling about it, regardless of gender or gay/straight. I have an image of a drooling Baron Harkonnen proffering a fifty-note, clenched between his quivering teeth as he pants in anticipation of the dance.
• Hell! I think every comment so far has a point... So I don't know what to think of this article any longer. This site is making me so confused! What with straight-guys-doing-gay-stuff and finger-skateboarding, and hippie evangelists, I begin to wonder what world I'm living in...
• These are straight college-aged guys who work out every day, understand the importance of exfoliation, and romp around naked together. riiiiight.
• LOL fes....LOL
• Ok, I'm deviant. I want to check out that site as soon as I get home.
• Warrior, I'm sure it'd be more than possible for you to fuck a woman with a combination of viagra and money. And probably a lot of pre-sex masturbation. But it'd be possible. Since - in the old saying - we're just establishing the price, would you say you'd SOMEHOW, some way, be able to get it up for $10 million? Even if it involved furious masturbation and looking at pictures more to your liking while doing it?
• I think absolutely the availibility of porn online is making people jaded in a way that hasn't been widespread until now. Not to mention that to attract or sustain interest, the porn gets more gonzo, more amateur, more kinky, more offbeat, more fetish, more bizarre - if you want plain ol' vanilla guy-girl or nekkid girl or nekkid guy or whatever, you're overwhelmed with choice. I mean, it's the difference between a 14-year-old looking at the one or two Playboys he salvaged out of the neighbor's trash or found under Dad's bed, or trolling through thousands of images, each more provocative than the last. You don't think that might shape a more jaded view of sex - especially before you even come near to the chance of having it? And the site mentioned in the article - sure it's exploiting the men involved. I don't really think it's different from women in porn. It's people humiliating/exposing themselves to perform for money. Would most of them do it if they had an alternative as lucrative? I would never propose to censor what consenting adults do, but something like that wouldn't be such a moneymaker if it weren't violating a societal taboo, so it's a symptom of something wrong in society, to me.
• Pyronecropedophilia.com When that's a valid URL, they will have gone too far.... and my dreams will have come true!!!!!! w00t bitches! pr0n r0xx0rz!!!11!!!
• It's hard to tell from the article exactly how far these acts go. It's described as romping, but I'm sure that wouldn't be enough to draw the paying customers. From the article: "Those who stick around to perform often do so with anxious giggles, macho posturing or an endearing awkwardness." To me, this doesn't sound like guys who *want* to do this (i.e. would do it for free).
• Boys Gone Wild, huh? How dare drunk, stupid college boys end up in the same situation as drunk, stupid college girls. It's different, and stuff.
• But with StraightCollegeMen.com, the real-life heterosexuality of the performers is the most important part of the experience. The writer is either optimistic or trying to pull legs.
• It's different, and stuff. No, it's the same. That's my point.
• I think that's his point too.
• I'm recanting...I think I would fuck a girl without the millions... I now remember an experience not too long ago when one of my girlfriends made a bet with, me on whether she could get me hard. Well, she did, and all I could think of was...whoa dude, what if? It's almost funny that if you get in the right mindset, you kinda will get aroused by anyone. or am I being overly optimistic here?
• Warrior - Margaret Thatcher. Or George Bush. I know, the love child of Margaret Thatcher and George Bush.
• Warrior, just open your heart, and Jay-sus will lead you to the indoor plumbing, where you too can hide your light under a bushel.
• mct- you might get a kick out of this then.

  "For behold: That which is light in the one hand is heavy in the other. And the load of the teacher in time makes glad the student's mouth."

• Yea, verily.
• I am going to create a website called MakeMeStraight.com where I will encourage women to try to convert me to the joys of heterosexuality. Anyone want in at the ground floor?
• I am going to create a website called MakeMeStraight.com where I will encourage women to try to convert me to the joys of heterosexuality. Anyone want in at the ground floor?
• in at the ground floor? what position is that? and did they take an MRI of it?
• To clarify, the ground floor would be the ground floor of the ingenius idea that I just presented. You can get in as either a man who needs to be converted to heterosexuality by an eager female or as a an eager female seeking to convert a man to heterosexuality. Or you can just be an investor and send me a check.
• Well, after quite a few years of being gay myself, I have to say that I think if you're getting off with other men, there's nothing that is technically heterosexual. I mean, that's homosexual sex right there. I think people are starting to get social identity mixed up with sexuality, in that we now have metrosexuals: straight men who act like homos, and apparently this new class of socially hetero men who are fine with fucking eachother. Very interesting.
• And to add to that, I would agree that there's a whole lot of social stuff involved in being "gay" so that I know guys who will say they are just homosexual, not "gay". Think about it.
• bernockle - oh. Thanks for clearing that up.
• I was being sarcastic. It kind of amuses me that people took this long to think of it, and find it novel now. Though I think my gender lines are skewed, or something, because I don't see any difference at all. It's like "Okay. People with somewhat tacky taste in porn who fancy drunk college boys get their share, too. Took long enough. Next?" I'm not much for porn at all though, so I guess I'm missing something.
• What's the surprise here? Men who identify as heterosexual have been having sex with other men for centuries. I used to patrol the 'boys' town' in the city: I'd guess that at least half of the male prostitutes there identified as heterosexual, but were gay for pay. This was long before the internet existed, and that sites like this exist raises no alarms. Some gay men have fantasies about straight men having sex with them (or with other straight men). Some straight men fantasize about lesbians. We all have fantasies that may or may not be likely to be realized, and the sex trade industry (porn, prostitution, stripping, etc.) makes very healthy profits by appealing to almost every person in our societies. Industries have sprung up around imaginary and impossible sex acts: why pretend to be at all shocked when two heterosexual men are willing to have sex with one another for money? Capitalism is simple exploitation of the population in general, so why express disbelief at the exploitation of a few individuals?
• Boundaries waver quite often
• Alot of posters seem doubtful these guys could be straight. I have no idea myself. But if a female porn star who has done lesbian sex scenes claims she is heterosexual, are you as skeptical of her?
• As a straight man who has in the past (and may well in the future) had boyfriends some even long term, I find it funny how many people out there refuse to think that straight men can fool around with other men. Lots of straight women have fooled around with other women, why can't straight guys fool around with other men? (Although to be fair, there are plenty of women out there who will kiss or pet another woman just because guys think it is hot. But I'm not talking about stuff like that.)
• I'm all for more forms of (morally acceptable) pr0n. Chant with me: 'hey hey, ho ho, fake fingernails have to go".
• I think some people here have a strange definition of 'straight'. If you're into sex with others of your gender, youre either homosexual or bisexual. You're not straight...no matter what you like to call yourself.
• Jesus, you suck one lousy cock and suddenly ...
• I am with you, rocket. What in the world is wrong with these definitions? Homosexual -- enjoys sexual activity with own gender only. Heterosexual -- enjoys sexual activity with other gender only. Bisexual -- enjoys sexual activity with both genders. This does no mean that you have to put yourself into some other social box or label. It is -- as I understand it -- the definition of the words. If I only speak French when I am in Paris, I am still bi-lingual. Though I may seldom speak French, the very fact that I can and do makes me bi-lingual.
• Bernockle: at the risk of sounding like a typical whiny bisexual, sex just isn't that simple. I'm sure if I was versed in sexual/gender theory I could give you better words to use, but I'm not, sorry. I do, however, know that just throwing one shade of grey into your black and white world does not really help much. I will say this though. As someone who has spent a good chunk of his life defining my own sexual identity, saying "you are bisexual, accept it" comes across as simpleminded and arrogant.
• Bernockle: Not to beat your analogy to death, but you are bilingual, even outside of Paris, because you carry in your head all sorts of knowledge and skills about the French language. If a man has gay sex for pay on camera, but once off of the soundstage, gay sex is not something that takes up much or any space in his mind, he's still straight. It's the difference between someone who is truly bilingual and someone who memorizes a few lines in French in order to act in a foreign film.
• The real problem with the whole "I'm straight but I mess around with men" thing is that it reeks of homophobia. Subtle, but still dangerous, homophobia. I'm not necessarily accusing you, aspo, or anyone on this list of that - but I do think that's where a large portion of this comes from. I mean, lets look at aspo's own example, women messing around with other women. I know a LOT more women who have admitted to fooling around with their own sex than men. Now, there are two conclusions one could draw from this. One is that women are inherently more bisexual than men (and I've heard this proposed before). But personally, I think it's a lot more likely that men are simply more scared of being labelled bisexual/gay. Thus we (since I'm guilty of this myself, to a certain extent) either would refuse to hook up with other men even if curious, or wouldn't own up to it if we did. Calling oneself "heterosexual" is a good way of not owning up to all those guys you've hooked up with. I agree that these things aren't cut and dry - I think that very few people are all straight or all gay - I'm pretty into the continuum theory. That said, I see all of the men scampering to to one side of the continuum as fast as they can problematic as well. It's okay, guys. I'll still love you if you're bi.
• ThRoach: Yes it can have shades of homophobia, but it doesn't have to. Oh and I'm amused you chose heterosexual as the word to hold onto. While I call myself straight, I sure as hell don't say that I'm hetero. So many terms; so confusing.
• uh, aspo, my tone is "trying to be gentle" here, but if you're a man who has enjoyed sex with men and sex with women, but you aren't bisexual, then do you accept any meaning at all for that term? What I'm trying to get to is the fact that no matter how we may rail against the limitations and complexities of "generally accepted terms", these terms are generally accepted. The fact that the meanings may vary somewhat does not mean that the terms have no meaning at all. Also, what TheRoach said. If you like the term straight so much, but you don't call yourself hetero, what does "straight" mean to you? I am a man, who enjoys sex with men. I accept the terms gay, homosexual, and queer to describe myself. I have very little sexual interest in women. However, if anyone has nine million dollars count me as the current low bidder. p.s. great thread y'all
• The continuum theory fits pretty well, in my mind, the only issue is that there are not enough terms to apply to the continuum, and people freak out when there's something they cant easily label.
• I apologize if I come across as an ass in this post. The problem with discussing this kind of stuff, especially not face to face, is it is really hard not to sound like I'm just whining about how noone understands me or how I'm so different from everyone else so *pout*! That's not my intention at all and if you do read that into my comments I'd appreciate it if the conversation continue either here or via email. I'm pretty bad about articulating myself sometimes, and my natural reaction is just to stay quiet instead of being understood. Ok... disclaimers out of the way, so here we go. I think the problem comes from looking at sexual identity* as a one diminutional graph. We label one end straight, the other gay and say "this area on the graph is het, this here in the middle is het, and here we have gay." But sexuality doesn't always work that way. It's some big multi-dimensional mess, although one that often can be simplified into a pretty decent one I know gay men who are willing to admit full well there are women they have/want to sleep with. But somehow that doesn't make them lose gayness. I know lesbian women (some raging bull dyke oh my god there is no way you are going to confuse them for straight even) who have slept with men after coming out. But somehow being a straight man means no other dicks allowed.. Touch, taste, fuck, hell even jerk off around one, and boom. You Are Bisexual (or for some people, You Are Gay). Why is that? And yes, some men are simply gay and in denial. You don't need to tell me that. And there are also gay men out there who have the whole "I'm gay but don't agree with the gay lifestyle" chip on their shoulders. I'm asking you to trust me when I say I'm neither of those. Despite the best attempts of reactionaries to stuff it back in, the sexual cat (here pussy pussy pussy**) is out of the bag, and it sure as hell ain't going back in. I really think that in a few generations this kind of conversation is going to seem oh so quaint and ignorant. These sorts of issues will be understood, with terms that have evolved as understanding grows. Getting there is not going to be a simple process, there will be plenty of missteps along the way, but don't please don't close your mind and refuse to accept that understood or not, these complexities exist. * I want to go on the record as saying I HATE THIS TERM. I know I've been using it a lot but I still hate it. ** Sorry.
• Western society is so damn homophobic that a lot of gay or bi men get pushed into the closet inside their own minds early, and live as heterosexuals while surpressing ruthlessly their true desires. (There are those who argue that surpressed gay urges are the source of homophobia). The internet allows these men, perhaps for the first time in their lives, to explore a side of themselves they had buried. From there, things can escalate. But gay porn is not turning these guys gay, it is helping them realize they are gay (or bi). "I now remember an experience not too long ago when one of my girlfriends made a bet with, me on whether she could get me hard" When I was single I always wanted to tell women I was gay for this reason, but never had the nerve.
• Not only that, LarryC, but there's such a push to "pick something we can understand", and so bisexuals get a lot of pressure even from gays. Nevermind gender, there's still even some sort of +phobia directed at transgendered/transsexual/transitioned people as well, and yes, even from other gays. I wasn't surprised or shocked, really, when I realized I was into men, but I think the nature of western society is that I had never really considered it an option to like both men and women, which is what I did. When telling other gay people I'd meet, they would always be like, "No honey, you're gay", and lo and behold, eventually I was. Whether or not this was because of some sort of peer pressure, or because sexuality is pretty damn fluid, who knows. It's just really weird and interesting that being gay doesn't necessarily mean you arent anti-bisexual, or anti-genderqueer (if that's the proper buzzword) or something like that.
• "I know gay men who are willing to admit full well there are women they have/want to sleep with. But somehow that doesn't make them lose gayness." I am pretty sure that I know what you are saying, aspo, and I am in agreement with you. But here you are using "gayness" in a completely social/cultural sense. And experimenting here or there certainly does not take away from someone's social/cultural identity. The definitions that I offered up were not social/cultural definitions or interpretations. I just took the time to look up dictionary definitions of the terms and found that their definitions are consistent with mine. It sounds like you do not like the social/cultural applications and inferences of those definitions. That is fine by me. But it does not change the actual definitions of the words.
• Bernockle: It does add further weight to the idea that being "gay" may be just as cultural as it may be sexual, though. ;)