December 08, 2004

• The Canadian patch thing is an old practice. However, I'd like some feedback on this "USAian" "USian" thing because none of the explanations I've heard are really satisfying. I know people from Canada, Mexico, Argentina, and Puerto Rico and none of them wants to be called American. And since it the answer I've usually heard is that America is the whole continent and so all of those people are Americans too doesn't really hold water (unless the people I've asked are anomolous). So what's it all about? Should this be a Curios George?
• I've wondered about the anger over that too. I haven't personally known anyone from Canada, Mexico, Central or South America who wanted to be called "American," either. IIRC, there was a debate over changing the country's name when it was still in its infancy for this very reason -- "American" wasn't specific enough, and no one could come up with anything that wasn't clunky like "United Statesian." One of the front-runners was, I believe, the United States of Columbia, but of course it never happened.
• I think it's an effort on the part of we U.S. Americans to show that we do realize that there's lots of other countries in North America. Also, perhaps it's to show that we aren't like some of the other people in our country who have no respect for other countries. For example, in a recent conversation, I was talking to someone about our current president and how he's made the world a bad place for us, how lots of countries now hate us, and her response was "Who cares? We're Americans, our country is the best." If coining a term like USAians makes us feel less like people like her, all the better, I say.
• I'm of a split mind, too, Northern. The flag-on-the-backpack thing has been around for a long time, and I've always been troubled by it. On the one hand, it's flattering to us Canucks, but on the other hand, it's usurpation. We're being usurped, I say! But a simple test will usually expose these fraudsters for what they are. Mercer's First Law states that Americans are fundamentally ignorant of Canada and of Canadians. Mercer's Second Law, that that fundamental ignorance will not deter Americans from making pronouncements on Canadian matters, is what trips the Yanks up at some point. They may wear the maple leaf, but sooner or later, they're going to run into someone with a relative in Toronto who's going to ask one too many questions. It's startling, really -- there's this image of Americans having this patriotic fervour, but this cuts it to the core -- turns out they're only flag-waving when it's safe or convenient to do so. Which is to say nothing about how lying about one's identity feeds the very mistrust of America that these posers are trying to avoid. Here endeth the rant. My apologies. I just had to get that out...
• Sorry Northern Exposed... didn't mean to help the thread-jack. Thoughts on that website: If I was Canadian, I'd feel proud, and not a little smug, about the fact that so many people from the "Great USA" want to move there. It seems to me that for many years, a lot of USAians (now it feels funny writing that!) have looked down on Canada (although that's geographically impossible). Now we view it as a much better place.
• Behold the power of Usenet!
• Skrik, thanks for finding that. He has a very good point. And I'm mightily tempted to add a Yea verily. Heehee!
• It's lame as hell. You want a rep, you earn it - oh wait, they already did; for being a country run by a lunatic that largely ignores others unless there's something in it for them. As to being proud to be noticed, it's kind of like the arty girl being proud of being groped at a kegger by the stinking drunk captain of the football team.
• That's not quite what I meant, moneyjane.
• I'd add a 'Yea verily' to moneyjane's fine words. And as for that supposed mass-trek of liberal Yanks up north, is there anything to that? Or was it just a lot of vented frustration? I haven't seen any U-Hauls lined up at the border yet...
• Maybe not, and it's nothing personal, but Canada has always been cool, and just because the US suddenly notices this when it's convenient doesn't get them a grateful round of applause, and certainly not the right to hijack our flag. If US travellers want to not be perceived as assholes, maybe they should stop acting American rather than pretending to be Canadian. And I can't think of anything more American than some dink from Ohio sewing a Canadian flag to his backpack.
• That was in response to Minda :)
• Ah.
• I think the point about the flag waving Americans only doing so when convienient, is kind of painting all Americans the same. Despite what the current administration is trying to say, 48% of Americans DON"T agree with the current adminsitration or its policies. So in that way, it is the people who aren't falg wavers that would be more likely to use a Canadian patch. The people that put those flags and ribbons on their cars probably wouldn't do such a thing.
• This sucks. Canada and Canadians earned their international reputation, and I for one don't want some loudmouth idiot yank ruining it by being an obnoxious asshole while sporting a maple leaf patch. You don't want to be treated as an American when travelling? Then don't travel. Or become a Canadian. As for the term 'American': It refers specifically to residents of the USA. Canadians and Mexicans are North American, but they aren't American. Similarly, Chileans and Brazilians are South American, not American. There is no such continent as 'America', so the term can safely be assumed to refer to the USA.
• Ah, I see. I didn't mean as "You should be proud because we have finally recognized how cool you are", and I certainly don't think we deserve a round of applause. What I meant is that... how to put this? Well, let's see. Were I Canadian, I'd be proud of my country for turning heads of the maddingly near-sighted Americans Thanks Skrik :o), as well as smug about the whole thing, because there's been a major attitude change. But that's not quite right, either. So I'll tell you what I don't mean: I don't mean that now that Americans like Canada better, that makes Canada a better place, or perhaps, that our attention should make you feel like the struggling artist (to kinda use your own example) being given a compliment by some world-recognized Giant Among Artists. I also didn't mean that we have a right to hijack your flag, symbols, language, or any other part of your country's identity. I don't mean that it's right that people are using your country as a political statement in ours. I also absolutely don't mean that we have a right to attempt to "Americanize" your country, which I'm sure is something many Americans would attempt. I hope I'm clear, but probably not. Articulation is not my strong suite today, apparently.
• Suite = suit. Sigh. rocket88, Skrik covered that one already
• Despite what the current administration is trying to say, 48% of Americans DON"T agree with the current adminsitration or its policies. What rubbish! 48% of voters don't agree. 50% of 'Americans' can't be bothered to vote. I think it is safe to say that slightly over 75% of 'Americans' either support Bush and his policies, or are complicit with their silence.
• Ah but you see minda, part of being a Canadian (to me at least) is not being proud, in the quintessentially patriotic sense at least. As a Canadian living in the USA, I like/miss my country a whole lot, but I get profoundly uncomfortable when people start talking it up...its not some Northern paradise, although I do think its a damn great place. Its the whole self-effacing thing I guess... As for the maple leaf patches, I've recently come to dislike the whole "covering yourself in the flag" cliche that Canadian travellers seem to do. If I'm in another country, I want to talk about their country, not draw attention to mine... Moneyjane, Canada is so not cool! And that's what makes it so very cool. ;)
• Granted, jc, not all Americans are the same. Of course. But if one of that 48% uses our good name for their own purposes, how is that at all helping to better America's reputation abroad? Is stealing our name fundamentally different than stealing someone's oil? If that 48% wants to better their own cause, and improve America's standing abroad, they have to do so on a basis of honesty and respect. Stealing our good name shows that the respect for other nations is simply not there. And in that, the 48% would be no different that the other 52%. Yanks wearing our flag is self-serving, full stop. It is NOT a tribute to Canadians or their values.
• Capt. Renault: I have two friends here in NYC that are moving to British Columbia. Granted, they are dating, and She's a dual citizen. But still, they said they would if Bush won, and well, they are.
• No one needs to apologise for what country they're born in. If you don't want to discuss your politics with someone, tell them to fuck off.
• Oustanding, Freen! Congratulate them for me, on their excellent taste!
• I'm not altogether sure how many people in the countries most hostile to the US even understand clearly that there is a distinction between it and Canada (much less care).
• What Wibbelflex said. Although hold the last part if you happen to be a foreign minister or member of the diplomatic corps.
• Americans pretending to be Canadian = lame. Usian= PC and lame. American = common sense abbreviation for citizen of United States of AMERICA, the name of our country. playing with semantics != helping world situation
• I don't want to be called American. They can keep their name - in my mind it is indeliably linked to the United States (for better or for worse). Plegmund - you make a very good point. Moreover, I don't know that there is a difference between the U.S. and Canada when it comes to the people who are most angry at the U.S. We're really quite similar - We like to pride ourselves on our different foreign policy, but we also turn a blind eye when questionable practices make us money (like bringing up oil for the Sudan government).
• You don't want to be treated as an American when travelling? Then don't travel. Or become a Canadian. How about people treating me (hypothetical me, US resident traveling abroad) by how I speak and act, and not being an asshole to me just because you jump to the assumption that everyone from the US is the same? Is that too difficult?
• Amen, Wurwilf. Even though I never get to travel abroad, because I be one broke-ass woman
• ...maybe they should stop acting American... I love how this has become an insult.
• Yeah well we used to pick on The Gambia and Fiji, but it was getting kinda tired.
• Fucking Fiji. Those bastards with their coconuts and their hot native girls and their cold fusion reactors and their extra large penises. What a bunch of losers.
• When I was living overseas I dated a guy from Colombia and he didn't like it when I referred to myself as being an American. He said he could be considered an American too since he was from South America. I don't think that I'd go so far as to insist on the term USAian, but co-opting "American" when that's actually part of the name of two different continents seems rather selfish, and American-like. Why not just say you're from the US?
• I'm not always proud of my country's actions and policies, but it insults me to be labelled selfish simply for calling myself an American.
• Look, eh!
• MCT saves the day! :o)
• I've traveled in Latin America a decent amount, and I've always been careful, when people asked, to say I was "estadounidense" (from the United States) trying to be sensitive to exactly this. About half the time I said this the response was "Ahhh.. un Americano." On the flip side, in Peru I had someone get upset when I called Spanish "Español." There, they typically call it "Castellano". So it is hard to tell what people are going to sensitive about.
• How about people treating me (hypothetical me, US resident traveling abroad) by how I speak and act, and not being an asshole to me just because you jump to the assumption that everyone from the US is the same? That's my point. Why would an American sew on a Canadian flag rather than doing just that? I'm not altogether sure how many people in the countries most hostile to the US even understand clearly that there is a distinction between it and Canada. Great. And we'd really like it if the kind of American so arrogant as to wear a Canadian flag muddied that distinction even further. Americans are the prime terrorist target, like it or not. It's more important than it ever was, as a Canadian traveller to not be mistaken for an American, and hiding behind a Canadian flag making your behaviour equivalent to "Canadian" behaviour in the eyes of the locals is inexcusable.
• please don't hide behind my country because people don't like yours. It's not a compliment.
• Hey, fellow USers! When we go abroad, let's pretend to be Antarcticans! The continent must have a cool flag to put on our sweatshirts. We can put snowflake decals on our luggage, too. How about a penguin applique on our hats? Plus, there's virtually NO ONE to offend there! Anyone want to help me market this? (...But seriously, I think we have some touchy folks in the house...)
• Fuck yeah!
• Name That Itch - I certainly didn't mean to imply that people who use the term "American" to describe themselves were inherently selfish. I think overall whoever decided to coin the term to mean "from the United States" was not thinking in a broad or global fashion.
• please don't hide behind my country because people don't like yours. It's not a compliment. Well stated.
• Oh yeah...this I love. One of the most flag-waving nations in the world thinks we're being touchy when we don't like them stealing ours. American concerns are important; those of other countries are not. This is the exact attitude that makes many Canadians so anxious to not be seen as Americans. You've made my point far more eloquently than I ever could have done myself.
• That's my point. Why would an American sew on a Canadian flag rather than doing just that? I don't agree with pretending to be Canadian; that's a bad reaction to a bad situation. But if someone does do this, it's because being a courteous American/USian/WHATEVER! isn't enough; people like rocket88 are still going to treat them like shit, no matter how much they try to be polite and civil, because of their country of origin. In other words, being a good person isn't good enough for them. Isn't this sort of nasty, snotty, original-sin puritanical bullshit what we do better than most, anyway? Who's trying to be whom, now? ;) (oh, and I am not traveling either, sadly. Oddly phrased sentence back there.)
• Sooooz, I understand what you're saying now. =)
• I'm sorry Americans are being treated badly abroad. Life's a bitch. Maybe sucking it up and trying to improve your country's reputation rather than diminishing it further by bitching that 'it's not us; it's everybody else' would serve you better.
• "Courteous... American..." You know, Wurwilf, I've never seen them paired up like that before. I keed, I keed. Sorta.
• It sort of says something about the people Americans are meeting abroad if those people can't separate the person from their country long enough to acknowledge the individual.
• As an American, I think I am qualified to say that Americans ought to be treated like shit wherever they go. For too long we have believed that the world likes us.
• One of the most flag-waving nations in the world thinks we're being touchy when we don't like them stealing ours. I never wave a flag. Any flag. I also don't agree with anyone stealing anyone else's flag.
• I don't think anybody ought to be treated like shit for no reason other than where they're from. I do think quite a few Americans could do with a reality check, and perhaps a kick in the ass, though.
• I think I must have missed something here. Have US citizens been encountering personal hostility abroad? (Apart from, you know, snotty French waiters and so on)
• Um, I would say that the Americans (umm.. or united statesers) that are out there waving the flag are probably not the same ones pretending to be canadian? Just sayin'
• Sorry, Canadian. Didn't mean to further disrespect your country by not capitalizing it. Oops.
• It's a shitty situation all round. I agree that nobody should be treated badly because of their country of origin. I ran a backpacking hostel in Guadalajara for a year, and was continually amazed by jolly dreadlocked Americans who were sensitive enough to how their country had pissed off the world to earnestly cover their ass by pretending to be Canadian. Unfortunately, such attitudes usually only change when the shit hits the fan.
• I'm running out of countries here, people.
• Plegmund, the only personal experience I've had with this type of situation was with Canadians getting bent out of shape when I thought they were Americans. Granted, I was young (19) and foolish, but living overseas for a year and hearing an American-sounding accent (few and far between in NZ) made me think they were American. So I kindly asked them as much and got a rude look in return, along with a snotty "No, I'm Canadian" reply. Now, as everyone else has said in this thread, you should not judge a country based soley on the personality of one person, but I quickly learned to ask all American sounding travelers if they were from Canada rather than risk the disdain that could follow.
• I know that the world is pissed at America. I am too. However, I cannot understand cross-cultural hostility taken to a personal level. This "wake up and smell the coffee -- people hate you" stuff I don't understand either. I am not a country, a flag, a motto, or a symbol (I am, however, told I'm a target). But I would certainly never co-opt anything from another country to hide behind. Short of overthrowing the government, there is not much I can do on a grand scale to improve our "reputation." I can only do little things like agitate for reform, and be as active as I can locally to make a difference. Sorry that's not spashy enough.
• I started using "USAian" after reading a lot of gripes a while back on on-line forums that using "American" was oafish and arrogant because, after all, there are 2 continents with the word "America" in their designation, and such use denigrated their identity as continental Americans. I thought, "Ok, I can understand how that could be a bad thing Thank you for the wake-call." So, now I'm verging on annoying PC-hood for not using something that many thought arrogant not long ago? Maybe we need a web-page especially for citizens of the US that keeps us up to date on the currently correct, internationally approved, PC name for our nationality. (Assholes, with whatever adjectives you'd like to add doesn't count. Nor does arseholes.) :) But, I have to say that I've never been treated badly in the small amount of travelling I've done outside the USA's borders. Very often, locals went way out of their way to help a poor, confused tourist - and not because they expected to be rewarded. I do think that (who ever we are) who are putting the maple leaf on backpacks are wrong to do so. But, if they're that sensitive to world-wide opinion, wouldn't they also maybe the ones who wouldn't take on the bumptious character that piss off people both inside and outside my borders?
• But that's just it - by wearing a maple leaf they've announced just how insensitive they are, given that world-wide opinions, would, I presume, include those of Canadians. It seems like the best we can hope for is that Americans will be waving our flag instead of their own :(
• The term "American" has been in use far longer than the country has been a world power. We don't get snippy when the Union of South Africa abbreviates its name, after all. On a tangentially related note, I've always thought the American flag was really ugly. Canada's is pretty. Humph.
• Americans - If you deny your nationality - the terrorists win!
• Curious George:When I was in Australia 4 years ago, I bought a patch of the Australian flag. I did it becasue I thought Australia was cool, Australians were cool, and their flag was cool. Now, since wearing it will make me insensitive, what should I do with the patch? Should I send it back, hide it, destroy it, or something else? Please help me!!
• You must chew it up thoroughly, swallow it, and wear a Crocodile Dundee outfit for the rest of your life! There have always been loud, obnoxious foul US people that go to other countries and spray piss all over. Hey, they're on vacation, right? I say it's a personal choice whether or not other people on this side of the world want to identify as "Americans." If I were that terrified of what other countries thought of us, I would stay home and hide. Basically, I just think that objectifying a people because of their affiliation with a particular nation, race, cultural group or whatever might lead to bad things. Unfortunately, I can't think of a historical citation for this, but I'm sure there must be one :} (I have a moustache) And those maple leaf phonies are cowards.
• It is totally insensitive to use the term Yugoslav or Macedonian when talking about a person from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYRoM). It's especially insensitive to call them FYRoMulans or FYRoManites. The proper term is Macedonian Republican Formerly Known As A Yugoslavian.
• I wouldn't know; I'm Antarctican.
• Cali - I never liked the US flag either. Canada's is much nicer, and Japan's is really cool. Maybe we should wave their flag instead.
• Do you think if the U.S.A. changed its name, the terrorists would forget all about us? Worth a shot.
• Even better - get your Very Own Canadian to wear an American flag and run ahead of you to draw fire so you can buy little plastic mosques in peace. Canadians: Hardly Uppity At All! Get One Today!
• moneyjane - where did that come from? have your (what ever wer're called) monkey cohorts been "ugly Americans"? That seems a little extreme in this venue.
• Naw - I was just being silly and taking the whole who's wearing whose flag and why to the extreme. No offense meant.
• Amen. Get a grip. Wassup with the vitriol? Nasty gets you anywhere but somewhere. Meow
• We have no hockey. As we can't watch men beat each other with sticks, and are too polite to start fist fights, we growl on forums.
• And, Mr.Knickerbocker. Some years ago, it used to be the thing to put plaques on your car that indicated which countries you had visited. Back then, it would have been an interesting conversation starter. Now, putting similar patches on some luggage might be misinterpreted.
• Get a grip? Meow? I know - let's make it personal! That always helps. Cage match, Peace Arch, recess.
• MJ - no hockey in Canada??? Since I don't read the sports page, I'm mystified. Please dish the dirt.
• Flag-waving Cascadians
• OOOh, what about the adorable hockey guy named Roi or whatever? He seemed almost as belligerent as the boys I dated from Minnesota. Such a god; too bad he's toast. Here's to short memories. Never got those foreign stickers on cars. Is it a ferry thing?
• Hockey strike - the NHL is on strike so there are no hockey games, and the sides (players VS management) are nowhere near settling. Management wants to cap and cut salaries; players want management to go fuck themselves. We are, as a nation, peeved, restless and without identity. All we can do is beat our moose and bears and cry in our KD.
• MJ. It isn't personal at all. You seemed a bit wound up. No need to be testy. Come visit me, and you can wave whatever the hell flag you want!
• C'mon - some of my best friends are testes!
• OOF! Can I live vicariously through you, as a nasty American? Is it permitted?
• My testes are my best friends.
• I ran a backpacking hostel in Guadalajara for a year moneyjane, you are without a doubt the most interesting person I know.
• Even better! You can impersonate me. Here's what you do, see, you get a little Canadian flag...;)
• Nobody notices my history. MJ beats me up. Because my nailx are too long to type on the keybrd. I still say my country 4itht or qrong.
• Take two bananas and call me in the morning. Have a good night all, I gotta go to work :)
• holy cow, the nails are too long for blind typing. Sorry meant to say this: Won't worry about it; my country (Antarctica) right or wrong.
• Have US citizens been encountering personal hostility abroad? Because my hometown is so close to the New York border and is a tourist destination in it's own right, there are countless Americans that come here for shopping excursions. I see our service people being the recipients of 'hostility', so often it can only perpetuate the 'ugly American' myth. They always seem to be loud and complaining about price, quality and quantity as they make their purchases. Being polite Canadians, we always tolerate this, but it certainly gets my ire up when I see people treated as second-class citizens because of their position in life. We are not here to substantiate self-perceptions of indigenous superiority. If our products and services are so second rate, then why do these people come here to shop in the first place? I find the folks I meet online are great, but avoid those ones I meet in the shopping malls. Is this the way these people are at home or is such rudeness saved for travel purposes only? It appears to be an egocentric view that nothing else reaches the standards of America. I once stood in line while a family of four received their ice cream cones and then loudly commented "This is a large? There must be a mistake." I don't think anyone was concerned when they declared they'd never go there again. Supersizing doesn't apply here. Now, having gotten that off my chest, I think I'm in a better mood to go do something productive today.
• Is this the way these people are at home or is such rudeness saved for travel purposes only? It appears to be an egocentric view that nothing else reaches the standards of America. People who are that way in your country are that way at home, believe me. If they're assholes over there, then they're assholes over here. It has nothing to do with insulting your country. It has everything to do with the fact that they are assholes. I've waited on thousands of 'em.
• What mct said. Guaranteed they treat service people like garbage in their own country too. Too bad we can't attach huge neon signs to them that say "ASSHOLE APPROACHING".
• Yes, dx, we have a lot of assholes here. It's just that I, personally, don't want to be judged for what they, personally, do. cynnbad said it best - they're people, not flags, not symbols, not Personifications of All That Is [Abstract Noun]. If you have a brother that's a jerk, do I get to beat you up every time I see you just because you remind me of him? I didn't think that was such a hard thing to figure out. I guess it is.
• I find the folks I meet online are great, but avoid those ones I meet in the shopping malls. I find this to be true no matter what country I'm in...
• If the people in shopping malls are jerks, and you go to shopping malls....... sorry, had to say it. no snarkiness or meanness intended. :o)
• Plegmund: I travel a lot, and I've never had a problem with anti-American hostility. Last summer I went to Rome, and met lots of interesting people. I don't think any of them cared whether or not I was American. I wouldn't particularly care anyway; anyone who doesn't want to get to know me because of a one-word label they might put on me isn't worth getting to know. One interesting thing is that I talked more politics in Rome in a week than I have in the US in months. I did have a few of those "what is wrong with your country?" conversations. My explanation was simple and brief.... that America is bitterly divided for these past few years, and conservative fundamentalists are having their turn in the front. Wait a while, things will probably change. But identify myself as Canadian because I don't like our current regime or what other countries think of us? Heck, no. I am an American, and proud of it, even if my current government does little to make me proud.
• I met plenty of jerk Americans in my time in the US. But I met many, many more genuinely good people, and the Americans I know that I play sports with over here are also good people. I agree that as consumers, some people from the US as a seem to have an overinflated sense of entitlement that enables them to demand more, cheaper, better than what I would be happy with, but I don't see as many examples of that as I used to, either.
• Is this the way these people are at home or is such rudeness saved for travel purposes only? It's a full-time occupation for them, at home and abroad. These are the same no-talent asshats from Ohio and Lon Gisland and Jersey and Massachussetts who drive down to someplace warm and spend most of their time complaining about how the people here are so slow and don't do anything right and back home they know what customer service means and damn there are a lot of darkies/colored here and you sure do talk funny. (as distinct from the no-talent asshats from deep in the Bible Belt who find themselves in DC standing on the goddam walking side of the Metro escalator and castigating passersby for not loving baby Jesus enough and praying loudly over their McMeal as they glare at all those heathen Yankees that are going to hell, but they travel less)
• About 90% of my clients are American, and virtually every single one will bring up the subject of American politics, apologetically, and make a point of telling me they think Bush is a maniac, and that their country is going down the tubes. I think I appeal to a Blue demographic, but still, these guys are usually fiftyish, solid corporate citizens, in town for business deals or conferences. I often find myself in the odd position of reassuring them that their own country is going to do ok, and that Bush will be gone next election. It's like they need to confess. It makes me feel sad they find it neccessary, but I understand it, and have gotten used to it. I'll usually end up joking around, saying, when they talk about wanting to get out and come to Canada, that I'll sign their citizenship applications. I wanted to post this because I wanted to make it clear that I do not dislike Americans, but rather those specific individuals with American citizenship who would think hiding behind a Canadian flag was in any way appropriate.
• Appreciated, and unnecessary. Anybody who's been on this site for more than a month should know better than that. And I think pretty much everybody here's in agreement on that point. It's cowardly and fuckwitted. Besides, with my drawl, I could never pull it off.
• Ah gee. I was just in a mood this morning, or I would have found a better way to state things. We obviously have ass hats from all countries. I never go downtown during the tourist season though. They are swarming all over the place near the waterfront where the tour boats are and it becomes quite frenetic. *note to self: don't comment when in a menopausal morning mood.*
• MonkeyFilter: menopausal morning mood
• fuyugare - more like the terrible twos, maybe.
• fuyugare, that tag does make for nice alliteration. /but beware, it comes upon all femmes at some point.