December 06, 2004

• I think the guy who originally wrote this sums things up pretty well. The actual post has been locked away for one reason or another. Ignore the chatter below the post - looks like some LGFer's (ptooey) got in there.
• Why not just have those soldiers who want to come home tell their COs that they swallow swords or much rugs on the regular? Shit, that's what I would do. Just imagine if the 150,000 (soon to be and already there) deployed soldiers all up and told the Pentagon they were fruity? That would sure screw the pokey... You think they'd paint the tanks pink?
• *munch rugs... much love to the other rugs...
• As much as I'd like to support their cause, I can't. This policy gives a nondesturctive way out of the military. Don't Ask Don't Tell doesn't prevent a sailor from holding his boyfriends hand. He just can't talk about his boyfriend to his chain of command (Actually, he can, he just needs to use words like partner, SO, etc). These people have a case, they haven't violated the policy. Just don't get rid of the policy; it has been useful for many service members (both gay and straight), and there will be more cripples coming out of the military without it.
• Debaser, I think that would be awesome. We'd all be laughing for days! drivingmenuts, that was one hell of a quote! I just don't understand these things. If we're so overextended militarily right now that there's talk of a draft (didn't have time to do a good search for a better source), why would the Pentagon prevent people who want to serve from doing so? Sometimes I feel a little crazy. I mean, what the hell is going on?
• The Pentagon needs to make a choice: let gays & lesbians in, or quit whining about not having enough troops. Isn't this a bit of a false dilema? Replace gays and lesbians with double amputies and midgets and see ho it works. As far as the US Military is concerned gays and lesbians don't meet their requirements (however brain dead those requirements are).
• This policy gives a nondesturctive way out of the military. But since the President has promised to maintain an all-volunteer army, wouldn't the only ones IN the army be the ones who want to be there, and thus don't want to take a nondestructive way out? Or did I misunderstand you?
• army s/b "military"
• Tenacious: A surprising number of people join the military without really considering the fact that they may get called to war. Why this is - I don't know. But it happens. Along with the really smart people who join up, you get a whole crop of people who don't consider the consequences of their actions.
• Here's an interesting HRC fact sheet about the effects of the policy in 2003. 10,000 people have been booted since DADT was implemented. I remember talking to friends after the Gulf War who talked about being more open while they were overseas (i.e., less paranoid of witch hunts, etc.), and some were fairly open with their COs. No problemo while they were in the war. When they returned after the fun they got the boot.
• Mr. Knickerbocker: You have some good points there. However, and this is the reason I've stayed out of the argument till now, forcing people to hide something that's such a big part of their personality is wrong. As is making it okay to treat gays differently (usually worse) solely because of their homosexuality. Sure, there are people out there who are uncomfortable with gays, but how is that ever going to be changed if we keep forcing them (gays) to hide their sexuality?
• According to SLDN, discharges under DADT increased from 1994 - 2001 (with the exception of 1998), and went significantly down in in 2002 (from 1273 to 906) and 2003 (from 906 to 787). All of these numbers are much too high, in my opinion, but I wonder if the decreases in 2002 and 2003 are related to the increased military activity and war in the Middle East and the need to decrease losses. If related, I wonder that such discharges don't drop even more during war time.
• You think that I am kidding when I ask this question, but: What is the definition of being gay? Is it when I have sex with the same gender? Is it when I have drunkenly kissed or fooled around with the same gender? Is it when I fantasize about the same gender? Is it when I had a sexual experience with the same gender eight years ago? Is it when I feel uncomfortably attracted to the same gender? Is it when I have fooled around with the same gender with the opposite gender at the same time? Do the answers to any of these change if I am predominantly heterosexual in my actions? If I am married? If I have children?
• yeah you're gay
• But since the President has promised to maintain an all-volunteer army, wouldn't the only ones IN the army be the ones who want to be there, and thus don't want to take a nondestructive way out? Or did I misunderstand you? A surprising number of people join the military without really considering the fact that they may get called to war. Why this is - I don't know. But it happens. Along with the really smart people who join up, you get a whole crop of people who don't consider the consequences of their actions. That's not what happens. The specific incidents where I've lost shipmates happened before the war. The decision to join isn't made without thought, but it is made on faulty information supplied by the military. They have to keep people in the dark about what they are getting into, it's the only way to recruit members. Contracts are supposed to be binding between both parties, but only service memeber is expected to fulfill their end. I've had to stand and watch while paramedics try to tape up the arms of a shipmate. I've had to stand at attention while our CO tells us what a shithead MM1 ***** was for shooting himself in the head right before an underway, he couldn't fucking wait until after we got back. I've had fjasd;kl sorry. this is a trigger topic. I have to walk away from thsi thread.
• Badgoat: Probably something to do with the fact they were being shot at at the time. I imagine getting shot at removes a lot prejudices for the time being.
• you mean teh gay... And no... I once had to sit down with an *ugh* homophobe who had a fantasy about men, which he confided to me (I was his big bro in my frat, and he was genuinely concerned). I told him my thoughts on the matter: It's perfectly fine to imagine yourself performing a sexual act on another man, it don't mean shit. I just have one question for you: " "Outside of sex, can you imagine holding hands while walking down a sunset dappled beach with your fantasy person, gazing into his eyes, feeling a warm glow spread through your heart, and quivering as he whispers "I love you, darling" into your ear?" My little bro. was terrified and apalled (I think he was being honest, had no reason to lie to me) replied "God no! That's just creepy!" So hot sex with someone who is your gender doesn't make you gay, lust after the same doesn't either. It's the desire to partner with the same gender that does. Of course, this is all IMHO, it made him feel better anyway.
• ps. I'm not gay :)
• ps. I'm not gay :) Not that there's anything wrong with that.
• Actually, the whole volunteer military....can I say at the outset that I don't know squat about what people who sign up for the armed services actually expect? OK, disclaimer done and.... I wonder how many people who enter the forces do so with the expectation that, if they are called upon to fight in a war, it's for a damned good reason. That the people in charge aren't going to be careless with their lives. Just saying.
• yeah you're gay posted by ActuallySettle I wish. I would fucking love to be able to walk into a bar and have a theoretical shot at one hundred percent of the people in there. I have listened to non-stop Pet Shop Boys for weeks at a time, and I am still not gay. Not sure what I have to do...
• Not sure what I have to do... Clearly you have not met our recruiting standards. PSB? You are so not gay. ;)
• Rejected, 4F, cliched cultural reference points. :-)
• Sometimes I feel a little crazy. I mean, what the hell is going on? Da ya think it has something to do with the insane man in the White House? I wonder how many people who enter the forces do so with the expectation that, if they are called upon to fight in a war, it's for a damned good reason. That the people in charge aren't going to be careless with their lives. Some how I don't think being a patriot means a military member has to fight for oil profits to go some Republican assholes deep pockets. This war isn't about Keeping America Safe, it's about Fucking America Over(and certain Middle East countries, too.) what people who sign up for the armed services actually expect Maybe they weigh the risk of going to war against a min-wage job (or no job) and a the chance of a decent life for their family, or a shot at an education. Maybe they sign up praying that they can get a start with four years in and not have to pay the ultimate price in a BushCo war. Just the fact that they ARE available in case of invasion, for our protection on our own soil, means they are serving honorably. They also serve who stand and wait. Hey, what we need are KillBots. That way we don't have to worry about all this messy human stuff. Gays in teh military? Damn, I bet straights hate it when they're under fire and all some asshole wants to do is reach down and pull your trigger.
• I think the reason that the Military does not love teh gay is that the aggressive, homophobic jockoid assholes are a major component of volunteers, and accepting homos would limit the number of homophobes willing to kill for their country. Since armed service is definitely a skewed demographic picture (as opposed to a draft, which would theoretically hit everyone), the military has no problem saying that they prefer to have homophobes over homos in their cost-benefit analysis.
• (y'know, drivingmenuts, after reading that little bit you linked to above, i'm once again eternally grateful that monkeyfilter doesn't include those silly "avatar" images that so many threaded discussion sites have. i mean, christ, those things are annoying. and usually pretty dumb to boot.) back on topic. this is pretty crappy, i was watching the 60 minutes thing last night about folks getting shipped off when they'd thought they were done with the army years ago. this whole "gays get the boot" thing now does make you wonder though... how many otherwise-straight folks would get "caught" sucking a cock/licking a beaver if they knew it would stop them from being shipped to iraq?
• would rather be gay than be in the military.
• clf: That's where bernockles question about "what is teh gay" is interesting. Do you need pictures? Or just to tell the recruiter, "hey, I like same-sex loving"? What's the standard of proof?
• If claiming to have teh ghey doesn't work, you could walk into the recruiter's office, sing a line of "Alice's Restaurant" and walk out. The army'll think you're nuts, and they won't take you.
• There is so much gay military pornography being made, which indicates to me that their problems may be larger than they think.
• I have the gay that just won't stop.
• why do i have this image of hundreds of US Army recruiters, arm in arm and high-kicking their way through that drum-roll bit in the Village People's 'In The Navy', except it's all Don't be gay! Don't be gay! Don't be gay in the mili-tar-ay! Woo, it gets creepy in here sometimes...
• tracicle-- As a Guthrie, I salute you!
• On a more serious note, I agree with BlueHorse. The US military is overwhelmingly poor and non-white in it's lower (non-officer) ranks. Most of these kids join up so they can get an education and the hope for a decent life. Most are more than willing to do their part, but it's sad that they have to risk dying to afford college or escape welfare. ...On a less serious note, I used to date an Army vet. He used to say that actually letting all the guys date each other would probably boost unit cohesiveness a lot. Also, they wouldn't need as much leave.
• Two questions for soldiers who don't want gays in the military: 1. Which is more important, the defense of your country or your comfort level around people whose life you disagree with? (in no way am I implying that what the military is doing in Iraq is defending America). 2. If your commanding officer ordered you (male soldier) to suck an enemy's cock as part of a military action, would you do it or would you disobey a direct order? If you did it, should you then be thrown out of the military?
• Neuro- #2: Trick question! If your commanding officer orders you to engage in homosexual activity, then they're the homo and instantly out of the military, thus invalidating their order. Whew! Saved another soldier from cock-sucking!
• js: Kind of. I imagine it would be an unlawful order. But neuroshed's question #1 has been answered in WW II, when all sorts of faaaaaaabulous characters served in armed forces the world over with no particular problems. Except Nazi Germany, where they were in death camps. Although I guess the US maintained the position it was more important to maintain segregation that beat Hitler or Tojo, so maybe we already have a different answer there.
• If your commanding officer ordered you (male soldier) to suck an enemy's cock as part of a military action No, no: "if your commanding officer ordered you to make your prisoners suck one another's cocks and you to laugh and pose in the pictures ..."
• TQK- Well, then, yeah. You're gay. Rogerd- Well, that's the distinction between a draft and an all-volunteer army. With volunteers, the Army can pick and choose. With a draft, they pretty much acknowledge that they need everybody. And with segregating out blacks, well, hell, you could tell they weren't white. You can't tell that gays aren't straight if you ignore who they fuck.
• TQK- Well, then, yeah. You're gay Jeez, you suck one lousy cock ...
• What's all this "ordering cock sucking" talk? Somebody opening a restaurant?
• lol....what THE FUCK IS THE BIG DEAL? like margaret cho said, no war can be won without lesbians! WHO'S GONNA READ THE MAP!... People are retards!!! Gays are gonna take over eventually. Gays will take over eventually. Sexuality is much more powerful than religion. And americans have short attention spans.
• Hmmmmm... I'm an excellent map reader. Should that tell me something?
• You all probably saw it on MeFi earlier, but I thought it'd make a good addition to this thread. Here's another little something that makes me wonder about how serious the current administration is about the Iraq war. First, they kick a man out of the military because someone saw him holding hands with another guy, and now they've dishonorably discharged these people because they used abandoned trucks from another unit to help them get fuel into Iraq. Also, we've all been hearing a lot lately about the troops being concerned about the armor issue. Couple this with the random (it seems) court martials and dishonorable discharges, and troop morale must be incredibly low.