November 14, 2004

Iraq Veterans Against the War. "When somebody else comes out and speaks, the average American hears him and goes, oh he’s just some college-educated tree-hugger that doesn’t really know what’s going on in the world. But when the average American hears a veteran . . . people listen, because this is somebody who has been on the ground, knows what the realities are, knows what these things mean."

Insofar as returning anti-war vets were intrumental in stopping the Vietnam War, I wish this new group all the strength it will need. IVAW has been featured in Mother Jones, the Boston Globe, the Daily Texan, and the New York Times.

posted by scartol 20 years ago
  • Yeah, but don't expect any of them to ever be elected President.
  • You beat me to it, Wendell. ;) Unfortunately, all my knowledge of Vietnam veterans speaking out against the war comes from movies - Born on the Fourth of July, Forrest Gump (sad but true). But this is good. Very good.
  • Does 51% of the country read those publications?
  • Does 51% of the country read?
  • Hey, a few milion of the 49% don't read either (THAT'S why Michael Moore made a movie!)
  • Yeah, but don't expect any of them to ever be elected President. Well, as long as they don't turn into a former anti-war activist who then campaigns on the idea that he / she could fight a _better_ war.
  • Does 51% of the country read? FYI: We're not allowed to even assert that more than half the country made a stupid choice, much less make fun of them, at least according to some of the "shut up!" comments my comments critical of Bush and those voted for him have resulted in.
  • I think it's more that the US election's over now, Hawthorne. By all means maintain the rage, but, you know.
  • Derision != Rage.
  • Derision != Rage. You don't think they're related?
  • Yeah, for me derision == rage Or rather, rage -> derision Of course the 51% isn't really stupid. It would just make more sense to me if it were the case. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to go over to the neighbors to borrow a cup of sugar for these grapes.
  • Wait a second. So now that the election's over, we should all stop being critical of Bush? And criticism of those who support Bush despite all the evidence against him (do I really need to make a list?) should be withheld? And rage does not equal derision. Though it's convenient to make simplistic pronouncements such as that. Really, though, it's just another way to put people in a defined box.
  • Wait a second. So now that the election's over, we should all stop being critical of Bush? GENERAL -- "Don't you love your country?" JOKER -- "Yes, I do, sir." GENERAL -- "Then how about getting with the program? Why don't you jump on the team and come in for the big win?"
  • You're a traitor, Alex Reynolds.
  • Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to go over to the neighbors to borrow a cup of sugar for these grapes. I don't mean to be a nitpicker, but since my thread has already been hijacked.. The phrase "sour grapes" should not be used merely because one is bitter about an outcome. In the story, the fox decides -- after realizing he can't reach them -- the grapes must be sour. It's a matter of rationalizing disinterest in something lost, rather than just being pissed off. So if you said "Ehh, we didn't want control of the government anyway," then that would be sour grapes. Thanks to George Carlin for pointing this out to me.
  • Was there any rage in that statement? Or just derision?
  • Lefties like you are so meddlesome, Alex Reynolds.
  • hmmm...maybe I should have gone for a lemons -> lemonade reference. Or perhaps apples rotting in a barrel. Darker the berry, sweeter the juice just didn't seem appropriate.
  • I'd like to offer some cheese with the whine, as I'm all out of my sour grapes.
  • Dissent crushed! Groupthink imposed!
  • Fascism has too much yelling in it. Why does every sentence have to end in an exclamation point? I like Democracy because its so quiet and polite, and no one speaks up.
  • Of course the 51% isn't really stupid. What I have a problem with is how I'm being told I shouldn't even imply that some subset of the 51% was stupid if only in its vote.
  • The problem is that calling stupid people on their stupidity is not polite. You'll get much further by first offering to polish their pickup trucks or bibles, or cleaning the sights on their assault rifles, or making lighthearted comments about "towelheads" and how the US should "nuke 'em 'til they glow". Once you've eased your way into the dumbasses' confidence, you'll be ready to spring progressive ideas on them, like hybrid-engine cars, non-GM food, health insurance for all, and letting the gays and brown-skinned peoples of the world live free and happy.
  • Alex - as per link two posts up, you will no longer be allowed to promote your deviance with such euphamisms as "bible polishing" or "cleaning someone's sights". Please cease and desist immediately.
  • You're welcome, Wolof. I only reserve offers of bible polishing for priests and their altarboys. Everyone else, all I can offer is a blow-dry and wax job on your truck. So sorry!
  • You're welcome, Wolof. You did, like, work out whose words I was quoting, yes? This message brought to you by the campaign to eliminate homosexuals and brown people. Vote Republican, even if you don't live in the US and are completely fed up with all this shit. You just should, because Jeebers wants you to. USA! USA!
  • Sadly, we're dealing with a majority in the US which sees no logic flaw in the statement, "Oh yeah? Well, we kicked your ass, so who's smart now?" I've been thinking about this for a while. Most of the Bush supporters I've talked to in the recent past don't seem to like being called "stupid." However, being smart and edjucated are certainly fair game when it comes to making derisive remarks about the folks on the left. Now, being a very liberal Democrat, I'm nothing if not politically correct. So, to remove the stigma attached to stupid people who don't want to be called stupid, I've come up with this concept: Faith Based Acquisition of Knowledge. I had to go with that, since "Willfully Ignorant" probably wouldn't have been politically correct enough. In any event, the principle of F-BAK is simple... 1. I believe that I am a follower of the one true religion. 2. Anything that feels right/good to me must also be the truth, because God wouldn't give me bad thoughts. 3. For anything that challenges my perceptions, go back to step 1. and start again. They're not stupid, they just don't think because they don't feel as though they need to. Someone better than they are took care of it for them.
  • They're not stupid, they just don't think because they don't feel as though they need to. Are you sure that's not stupidity? Willful ignorance?
  • Well, Alex, the language is hurtful, and therefore wrong. F-BAK is the new Handi-capable! Meanwhile, back on topic, so are these soldiers now automatically traitors, or do they get to be heroes until they run for office?
  • Its an interesting strategy that Bush and Rove have come up with, pioneered in the 2000 elections. I remember the smear tactics against McCain's Vietnam service back when he ran against Bush in the Carolinas. Bush turned around on Larry King and said that McCain "served honorably" but his campaign kept up the smear attacks. Again, in 2004, Bush does the same "you served honorably, John," speech to Kerry while having the same goons who spread bullshit in the press about McCain do the very same thing to Kerry four years later.