November 11, 2004

• Interesting user name, are you to be our resident obituarist [and is that a word]? Did he really mean to say that "And now, after these painful days of President Arafat, he is dead."
• RIP
• He was a monster, as they all are, these violent alpha-males that afflict our species still. But there will be other silverbacks to replace him. To hell with them all.
• It's been a while since we've had a good game of Food Eating Battle Monkeys, so I bring you Zombie Reagan vs. Zombie Arafat.
• Well, Nostril, they don't hand out Nobel Peace Prizes every day, you know. At least Arafat tried, and Rabin was shot by an Israeli right-wing nut who wanted to kill the reconciliation process. Here's one even-handed analysis of why the Oslo accords failed. Don't believe the hype.
• Tellurian: Given that he's been in a coma for several days, I highly doubt they've been painful. By the way, since you decided to open you comment with some mockery, my name unimaginatively comes from a rather fine Pixies song... If I'm to be the mofi obituarist, then the mind boggles at the titles available for one whose posts include such gems as "I'm gonna murder my baby." Not that I'm poking you in the eye or anything.
• They don't hand out Nobel Peace Prizes every day, true, but they do hand them out to some strange choices, such as Kissinger. Alfred Nobel, of course, was the inventor of dynamite. There's no doubt Arafat was a monster responsible for some bad things, who amassed a huge fortune while his own people suffered, irrespective of what shiny trinkets he was awarded by some bunch of guys sitting in committee half a world away. Mention of Rabin is a non-sequitor. They're all just as bad as each other.
• Let's hope this moves things forward in some way or other.
• Yeah, let's hope the news is now filled with something worth hearing about.
• Arafat was the modern day "pioneer" of global terrorism...may he burn in hell.
• thismonkeysgonetoheaven - of for whatever. I'm off to buy some Visine.
• Can I put Sharon's atrocities from the 1950s and onward in "quotation marks", or is that not a popular thing to do these days?
• The guy was a highly symbolic asshole, now he's a highly symbolic dead asshole; more assholery, factionalism and gunfire to follow.
• Alfred Nobel, of course, was the inventor of dynamite. Some background on weapons technology and its influence on the Peace Prize portion of his will.
• No, not at all - using "quotation marks" to indicate that some asshole's enemy also committed atrocities therefore mitigating the actions of asshole number one is highly popular, as is shooting oneself in the foot and blowing off one's nose to spite one's face.
• Um, I never said it mitigated anything, moneyjane. But Sharon has shown no effort towards reconciliation, and it has been noted that Sharon has been responsible for several human rights atrocities as a military leader, even beyond the bang-up job he's doing right now as PM. Arafat met with forward-thinking people on the other side and at least made a fucking effort, as much of a black-and-white "asshole" he's made out to be by the press. The real tragedy that gets ignored was that Rabin was shot by an Israeli on the Right. While there's little mention of how this helped destroy the process, there's plenty of commentary about "asshole" this and "asshole" that. If you're going to call him a "terrorist", keep in mind the rest of the history, which are not "non-sequitors", but might as well be, given the simplistic and near-racist quality of reporting on the conflict.
• My favorite memory of Arafat is how, in the late 80s, a TV show here in Quebec would use him in their joke. They took the latest Arafat TV appearance and synched it to a "well, the other day, I was talking to my wife" joke. With a silly voice. I was kind of surprised that the real Arafat sounded nothing like the guy doing his voice on that show.
• (For the benefit of our non-Québécois readers, that basically had Arafat channeling Henry Hill)
• Oh, and HEY, A THREAD ON THE MIDDLE-EAST!@# I DON'T SEE ANY WAY IT COULD DEVOLVE IN A FLAME WAR!@#$#@!
• Me neither, YOU BASTARD!
• I don't know what that link was supposed to prove, Alex. Other than that it couldn't clear up Nobel's ultimate personal conflicts about war & peace one way or the other, even originating at nobelprize.org itself. It even states explicitly his "pronounced scepticism towards peace associations and peace congresses" & that he believed a really powerful weapon would be a really powerful deterrent against war. A more assinine idea is difficult to conceive. "..simplistic and near-racist quality of reporting on the conflict" -- yeah, & you're not part of that, are you? Nobel Peace Prize offered as measure of a man? I'm even more sure that you don't know what you're talking about than I was before.
• ."..simplistic and near-racist quality of reporting on the conflict" -- yeah, & you're not part of that, are you? Nobel Peace Prize offered as measure of a man? I'm even more sure that you don't know what you're talking about than I was before. ? If I'm racist feel free to point out how, because I'm certainly confused about this insult. Otherwise, cool your heels. The Nobel link was for your benefit, by the way. Saying he invited dynamite and leaving it at that it is pretty "simplistic". Its not clear either way about his feelings, other than that his will stands in contrast to his activities before death. Its up to the reader to make a conclusion about that. To me, the order in which things were done implies reticence (late as it may be) about his involvement in war-making.
• What I find interesting is how Arafat's wife and advisors spent his last hours in a cage match over all the missing money that somehow disappeared into Arafat's accounts rather that being put into Palestinian initiatives. That pretty much summed up Arafat's legacy for me.
• invited=invented
• I invited dynamite over for dinner. She let me down again. Chrissake.
• What I find interesting is how Arafat's wife and advisors spent his last hours in a cage match over all the missing money that somehow disappeared into Arafat's accounts rather that being put into Palestinian initiatives. The US donated $548 million to the Palestinian Authority, among other donors, since 1994.[1] The US has given Israel $26 billion in loans and grants in that same time period. For that matter, the US has given $600+ million in aid for Isreali settlements which violated the Oslo accords and which are currently the cause of much of the violence. [2] The US has sponsored $2.5 billion in weapons development in Israel. [3] A little perspective might be warranted on the money issue. Just sayin' [1] Palestinian Ministry of Planning and International Cooperation, Aid Coordination Department, MOPIC’s 2001 First and Second Quarterly Monitoring Report of Donors’ Assistance, 2001. [2] http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html [3] http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html
• Despite a lot of its shortcomings, Metaphilter allows the a tag. Unbelievable, no?
• I'm too lazy and tired. I'm sorry.
• "The Nobel link was for your benefit, by the way." Oh, thanks for educating me, Alex. I'm sooo grateful, because I never would have known all of that shit beforehand. "Saying he invented dynamite and leaving it at that it is pretty "simplistic". Its not clear either way about his feelings.." It's not clear either way about his feelings. So your point was... ? He did nothing his entire fucking life for peace except hire a few guys to keep up to date with the peace movement. Jolly good show. When he was dead, his will bequeathed a portion of his vast wealth to giving trinkets away to people who helped 'further the cause of peace'. This guy was rich enough that he could never have exhausted his wealth while alive, even if he had given 50% of it away to furthering world peace, assuming he even had a single idea how that might be done. I put it to you that the Nobel Peace Prize has made zero contribution to encouraging world peace, & that Alfred Nobel only put that in his will so he would be remembered for the prize, and not for creating explosives. As for Arafat, he was a monster who did nothing, absolutely nothing for his people. Just like Nobel, he was concerned only with his image, not with actually achieving peace. Otherwise he wouldn't have paid the families of suicide bombers. He is indistinguishable from Sharon & any other butcher. You note that the US has supported Israel above Palestine in grants. I note that George W. Bush was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. On the issue of your racism: anti-semite. You might go some way to mitigating this impression by noting Arafat's actions during his lifetime. Arafat contradicted his renunciation of terrorism in the Oslo accords by announcing to Jordanians his commitment to his 1974 plan to destroy Israel. Evidence of Arafat's financing of terrorist organisations right up to present-day is by no means paltry. They're all as bad as each other, Alex.
• Dude...I don't care if he got it selling cookies door-to-door, or if Israel got theirs as tips for lap-dancing; my point is that he openly burned his own people, and that means a vast sucking vacuum of marketable martyrdom is up for grabs in one of the most volatile areas on earth.
• On the issue of your racism: anti-semite. Wow, Nostril, you really are an ignorant asshole. Thanks for the proof.
• Sorry...referring to money given to Palestine and Israel.
• "you really are an ignorant asshole." I may well be. However, I prefer this to making eulogies for murdering, theiving, hypocritical fuckheads. Now go get some sleep.
• I think we're all freaked at how quickly potential disaster has followed potential disaster this week - I'm just waiting for Castro and Kim Jong-il to fucking bite it on the same day, y'know, maybe this Friday. We don't agree on a lot of this shit, but at least we're all paying attention, and that's got to be good for something.
• /sigh Probably only good for starting more wars, sadly. We're none of us very good at this peace shit, are we?
• However, I prefer this to making eulogies for murdering, theiving, hypocritical fuckheads. No one's making a eulogy. Just putting things in a little perspective. The conflict isn't a cut and dry situation, on either side. Secondly, Semitic peoples come from all over the Middle East, Palestinians, Jewish and Arab Israelis included. So, again, you really are an ignorant asshole and fuck you again. I just hope someone takes over the PA who can make a little progress back to pre-1994 conditions. Everyone was getting along so much better then.
• By virtue of being Monkeys we are going to be articulate, educated and outspoken types who want to be heard and understood. Not so easy in times like these. We are going to fight. We just have to learn how to do it Monkey-style. Any suggestions?
• The conflict isn't a cut and dry situation, on either side. No shit sherlock.
• I don't know. Saying anything meaningful about the death of a controversial Palestinian/Isreali leader is really, really hard. I know I can't.
• "Semitic peoples come from all over the Middle East, Palestinians, Jewish and Arab Israelis included." And I am descended from Semitic stock on one side. My Great-Great Grandfather fled Europe because of Zionism, actually. "you really are an ignorant asshole and fuck you again." Fuck you very much, too, Alex. You know nothing about me. You said "RIP" to Arafat. I say, burn in hell, Arafat, you fucking murdering cunt. When people say 'anti-semite' they mean anti-Jewish, as well you know. Making a pedantic point about semitic peoples means nothing. It is also a point favoured by neo nazis, usually made to somehow prove they are not anti-jew. So let's talk about Arafat's supporting of terrorism, shall we? Or are you too tired & lazy? Perhaps you simply approve.
• Maybe that's why I immediatly thought of the TV skit. It had a strong point: we used to see Arafat in the news every week or so. Yasser did this. Yasser did that. However, we actually knew very little about the man, what he stood for or what was happening out there.
• The Israel/Palestinian conflict is show-biz gold for all those Middle Eastern governments who prefer peasants and veils to real revenue-sharing and social reform. Nobody who matters wants it to stop.
• "Nobody who matters wants it to stop." Agreed.
• I follow Mideast politics pretty closely and the first I heard that Arafat had embezzled a fortune was when he was already in Paris half dead. Is there actually any evidence for this embezzlement? I have no trouble believing this happens with a lot of rulers, just I wouldn't ahve put Arafat in that category (he is in other bad categories, believe me). Overall, he seemed to live a simple life. Maybe I got sucked in by his schtick. But where is the evidence he embezzled a billion? And where did he get it from? its not like there are oilfields under Gaza.
• There are many reports from all sorts of different sources on the PLO & Arafat's corruption. In '93, the UK National Criminal Intel Service audited the PLO & estimated the they had $8-10 billion USD with an yearly income of about $1.5-2 billion from "illegal arms dealing, drug trafficking, money laundering, fraud, etc." That's just one source. The French police were investigating Suha Arafat, who lives in Paris, in connection with a transfer of 11 million to her account from a Swiss bank, alleging misuse of PLO funds. Suha claimed there was nothing odd in a husband transferring money to his wife from abroad. PLO received nearly 6 billion in aid mostly from the European Union in the last 10 years. IMF claimed that 1 billion couldn't be accounted for. And so on.
• Ok, ok, I don't want to get involved in all the poo flinging. However, I'll just dip my toe in to point out that calling somebody an anti-semite for critisising Israel is not kosher. Even if they called you a racist first (which I'm not sure they did, really). Once again, ladies and gents: critisism of Israel does not equal anti-sematism. Critisism of the Palistinian Authority (or any other Arab-dominated group) does not equal anti-Arabism. Critisism of the US Govt does not equal anti-Americanism. Critisism of the Central War Council of the Killer Robots from Venus does not equal anti-Killer-Robots-from-Venusism.
• you really are an ignorant asshole and fuck you again I say, burn in hell, Arafat, you fucking murdering cunt *sigh* *wonders whether to make a comment* *decides not to* *goes away*
• Well, well, and indeed well. I drop in to see if the old place is maintaining its standards of decency and mommy-approved nanna-flinging puerility and what do I find? Insult-hurling, personal abuse, "ignorant assholes", "racists", "fuck yous" and "burn in hell, you murdering cunts". Nice. Oh - and well done Alex Reynolds for putting some reasonable perspective on Arafat in the face of Nostrildamus's frankly deranged and highly biased propaganda-spewing. Not to mention his knee-jerk pro-Israeli idiocy: anyone who calls someone anti-semitic for attacking Sharon and Israel (both eminently justifiable and decent things to do, given the current and historical behaviour of both) is an inexcusable fool. So, tracicle - you'll be threatening Nostrildamus with expulsion soon, right? Oh, silly me. I forgot. That rigorous application of MoFi principles only applies to newbies. Pip pip, kiddies! You're much more fun when you interact and vent like real people, you know. You should keep it up.
• I vote we pool our money and buy Nostril a MeFi membership. He'd fit right in over there.
• Yikes - what _is_ it about the Palestinian/Israel thing which pushes peoples buttons? May I refer everyone how got so wound up in this thread to contemplate this train crash over at Crooked Timber (linked by me previously in the polyfilter thread) and ask themselves what the heck is up? Alex, Nostril, if either of you have a dog in this fight, speak up. I'd like to know.
• So, tracicle - you'll be threatening Nostrildamus with expulsion soon, right? Oh, silly me. I forgot. That rigorous application of MoFi principles only applies to newbies. Decani, you sound like a child. Relax. You're much more fun when you interact and vent like real people, you know. Just because bitching and name-calling is your preferred method of discourse doesn't mean that the rest of the world interacts that way. The old saw "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" would seem to apply here.
• GOOD GOD, LOOK AT ALL THE PUPPIES!
• Sidedish to the rescue!
• WAAAAAH mommy they called me names WAAAAAH mommy you're a bad mommy WAAAAH WAAAAH mommy why won't you be my mommy too WAAAAAAAH
• kittens, kittens, i'm smitten with kittens
• “Hi, this is Name That Itch. Unfortunately, I can’t take your call right now because I’m reading about Yasser Arafat’s kittens. Please leave a message at the tone. Thanks!”
• Yassir Arafat blew up kittens. He stopped in the 80s, though, unlike Ariel Sharon. I agree with Nostril: both are as bad as each other. The only difference is the resources available.
• bah! my budgie mocks your kittens!
• i'll see your budgie, and raise you a cockatiel!
• Alex, Nostril, if either of you have a dog in this fight, speak up. I'd like to know. Having been to several concentration camps in Germany and Eastern Europe, reading about US isolationism pre-1943, colonialism of European nations, and living through the Reagan era when he turned his back, not only on people dying of AIDS, but on sufferers of apartheid in South Africa, there are elements to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the involvement of the US, that are eerily familiar. Equating what is more or less kids throwing rocks at tanks with terrorism is a bit much for me, given what Israel does on a daily basis with its "security" wall and settlements, and dismantling of the PA's ability to manage such basic things that contribute to a stable society, like the ability to police, manage sewage lines, electricity, education, fire and emergency services etc. Basic shit that keeps people happy and non-violent. The inevitable retort is suicide bombers. Well, the bombers seem to be of a profile of 18-25 year-olds, well-educated. When the same young people who could rebuild a stable society see their only hope in blowing themselves and others up, I have to wonder why they came to that conclusion and what's left of any rational solution to the problem. Meanwhile, the UN and US stand aside, allowing and in some cases encouraging what many reasonable, non-"anti-Semitic" people have called disproportionate acts by Israel. The US sells arms and gives (tax) money to both sides to buy more weaponry and to encourage settlements that inflame the situation. Bush still only cares about the Middle East when it suits his expansionist goals, or to have the US State Department approve profitable arms deals to Saudi Arabia and Israel. This is all too reminiscent of how the current administration's family profited from arms deals to WWII Germany. I think the term in addiction circles is "co-dependency." As a newly naturalized citizen of the US, this bothers me and I intend to support politicians and policy that move the process in a positive direction. I don't glorify Arafat's past. But to catagorically state he was a monster ignores a greal deal of history and blame to spread around. It takes two to tango, as some people say.
• the_bone: I assure you I am extremely relaxed, but thanks for your concern. As for your opinion that my highlighting the extremely selective way tracicle applies the alleged MoFi principles of interaction makes me sound like a child... noted. That's an interesting perspective, certainly. Perhaps you should re-read Nostrildamus's splenetic frothings on this thread and bask in something a little more refreshingly mature than my inexcusable juvenilia, eh? Alex: you go, guy. You're bang on the case re Arafat. It's refreshing.
• i think this photographic evidence proves that terrorists are cute and cuddly! either that, or that some people select unfortunate names for their pets.
• Pony Request: Can we have a color-coded Nostrildamus alert level on the front page? He's taken a shit in a few threads today (one quite inappropriately, IMO) To Nostril & Alex: You have different views on Arafat's life and legacy, as do about a billion other people. If you can't let each others' opinions pass without flinging a personal insult, the least you could do is take it offline. To Decani: If you want to come back here, this is not the best reintroduction. If you haven't learned a lesson from your last stint, you're not as bright as you think you are.
• The domo-kun death count in this thread should be sky high, what with all the kitty images flying around. Maybe the real terrorists are right here in this thread? Can one love kitties and freedom at the same time?
• alex, here in america we have a saying: "you're either with cuteness, or you're against it."
• *looks in mirror* Against! *cries*
• Without weighing in on which side may be more guilty than the other, there are basically two types of hatemongerers in that little part of the world: the ones who hate the other side because of what they've done, and the ones who hate the other side just because. It's the human condition, a modern form of xenophobic tribalism and the high-school-level politics of retributive escalation: "an eye for a tooth." Though I did not wish death on Arafat, it is clear that he was not interested in peace, any more than those who were responsible for Rabin's assassination: he wanted victory and power. And he intercepted an awful lot of money for me to believe that he cared about the everyday Palestinian. For when we suffer an insult, they will suffer an injury. For when we suffer an injury, they will endure a death. And when we endure a death, they will mourn a thousandfold. Whether your god is YHWH, Allah, or whomever, if you believe that, you are a shame on the human race.
• I mourn for Israel and Palistine. Is there any hope for peace? There are millions of people there on both sides who are just trying to live their lives in peace, but who pay the price of violence. But at the same time, the gulf between the two societies is so very wide. I remember seeing a documentary on an Israeli boy who became a pen pal with a Palistinian boy. But that was all arranged by the documentary makers themselves, since before they started writing to each other and met each other, they both believed that the other side was evil. I don't know how much that had changed after they met each other - they were like "Well, he's okay, but Jews/Arabs are still violent/oppressive/evil." They lived in segregated worlds - they never met people from the other side. How could they know them as people? So much hurt and violence on all sides. Arafat was part of it, benefitted from the power, did try to make some kind of peace - but also was not able because he did not have the support for peace. But no one or two men really are the story. Arafat, Sharon - they are just the heads of large groups. Either of them dies, and there will be someone else to step up to the plate. No matter how sincere Arafat may or may not have been - he had to have absolute obediance from all other terrorist groups to stop the terrorism - and it's not like terrorists are very good with obeying authorities. But it does the world no good to keep trying to play the blame game. It does the Israelis and Palistinians even less good. If you want to blame anyone, blame Britain for being a bad colonial master to Palistine, Canada and the US and everyone else for turning away Jewish refugees after WWII. We committed crimes against humanity when we turned them away; we set up the whole situation. But what can be done? I don't know. I don't think anyone in the world does. I know I would like to see an end to religious segregation, because I believe that living, studying and working with people is the first step to understanding their mutual humanity. But I understand this may not be possible. It may be that the two really do need to be separated by a wall - though this should go along the 1967 borders. That would dislocate Israeli settlers, and be economically disasterous to Palistinian workers who rely on jobs in the Israeli territory, but it may be that peace is not possible at this time without utter separation.
• Sidedish - How dare you not put a warning on that link?! Those puppies are TOO CUTE !!!!!!!11 My eyes are just welling up - I'm blinded by cuteness!
• jb, alex -- good posts nostril - thanks for the info, I will look into Arafat's money a little more. On the face of it, I am disinclined to take the IMF as a dinsinterested party. What I would like to see is evidence of mainstream discussion regarding his alleged embezzlement in the last decade, and I haven't seen anything significant in that regard. The fact it is now given such prominence suggests pre-emptive spin. But I will see what is out there ...
• SideDish, in your years of writing about politics, you have probably ammassed the largest collection of "cute pets" picture links on the Web, right? As for Arafat, I'm not going to call him a monster, just a failure, a quitter, a disappointment to the world. After going as far as the Oslo accords (in a "only Nixon could go to China" kind of way), he chose his own survival (with self-aggrandisement and, we now know, amassing a personal fortune he'd never get the chance to spend) over working for the future of his people. He saw the writing on the Wailing Wall that cowtowing to the hard-core militants/terrorists was the only way he could stay alive himself. And the lack of any chain of succession upon his death is a particularly telling sign of his tragic failure... or should I say surrender. Maybe better leaders will emerge from the Palestinian People, but it won't happen soon.
• So is that Suha chick available yet?
• So is that Suha chick available yet? I hear she's rich.
• And she speaks "french" wink wink
• Now can we go through his pockets for loose change?
• Heyyy, nice train wreck you got going on here. Decani, you're being a dick. I kept your account open under the assumption (obviously mistaken) that you were a grown person and maybe I acted too harshly. But no, you sit around so you can add to the snark. I think that's your exit. Nostril, Alex, now's the time to agree to disagree. I'd prefer it if you both took a break from this thread for a while. And maybe, you know, tone down the language for the sake of the rest of us? If you'd like to continue arguing in something resembling a mature fashion, you could always take it to email or something. It's funny, I heard the news about Arafat this morning and automatically thought, "Oooh, there's going to be trouble on the internets!" But then I went out for the day.