November 09, 2004

Thought For a new PolyFilter I've noticed a need to discuss politics here, yet also that the topic itself is, understandably, very touchy these days. I like the crowd here on Monkeyfilter and that, most especially that they are more civilized and thoughtful than on sites like 'Fark, 'Metafilter', etc. What I would like to do is put together a site where *civil* discourse is encouraged and welcomed and negative discussion is discouraged. This from someone who has, admitedly, engaged in some negative conversations in the past. My problem is that my html skills are kind of rusty and I would need some help. Anyone interested or do they have any suggestions? I would like to hear from any and all interested parties. My intent is to create something like 'The Boston Commons' for the internet.
posted by mk1gti 20 years ago
  • Have you seen Devoter? You may find what you are looking for there.
  • Sorry, but a site on plastics isn't going to work.
  • I've tried to establish that vibe on my own site, with remarkable success. In one case I had a contributor who just refused to be civil and constructive, so I had to ask him not to participate any more. Once that one was out of the picture, the mood turned downright pleasant. I wonder if the world needs yet-another-site on which to discuss politics. Not to say that you shouldn't establish a blog of your own, but just to point out that when and if you do you'll be one among a great many. But doing your part to spread the idea of a conversation in place of dueling rants would be a mitzvah.
  • I was thinking of much the same thing. It's cool that the Devoter seems to fill the bill. I'll keep an eye out on that.
  • Richer Sorry, but a site on plastics isn't going to work. I saw that too when I typed in 'polyfilter' into Google it came up with *fish tank filters* Cool! Yeah, I do realize it would be one among many, Jeff, still I would like to try it and see what happens. I think the 'civil discourse' thing might be appealing. I think everyone's tired of all the screaming and yelling. It serves no purpose and just gets in the way of constructive ideas and solutions to problems at hand. I also think 'polyfilter' might be a good name for it, kind of a take on the whole 'meta-monkey-etc, etc-filter thang. Who knows? Anyway, at this point it's at the discussion stage, so any and all comments and offers to assist in putting it together are welcome. Thanks!
  • Oh, and, hum, I was thinking about the metafilter.com it's okay to like.
  • As far as blogging engines go, MoFi uses Metaphilter but that's fairly complex for someone without much experience (like me, but I had help). There's also freefilter, or many other PHP-based engines. You could try PHP-Nuke, which can look decent with a good template. Have an explore. If you have server space somewhere, see if they provide anything along those lines - they'll be able to help you set it up if you need it. MoFi's old hosting company came with PHP-Nuke and that was our first, very brief incarnation. :)
  • yeah, metafilter is great, but they're not accepting new members at this time. I know that's due to change, but I would like to put together something political-discussion focused. I was thinking about kind of a topics-based thing, like say 'history', 'politics' 'economics' 'military affairs' 'espionage' 'diplomacy' 'international crime' as a few examples. Other examples are welcome.
  • jb I just took a look at 'devoter', it's a great site, I just wish they had more people visiting. I'm definitly going back for more.
  • I can recommend Discus for some easy to use and install BBS software- best of all, its free for the basic version which has powerful features. I've used it for years and it's great.
  • Thanks kamus, I'll give it a look-see
  • So, as you can see, there are already a lot of political discussion sites. There might be room for more, especially if you have something original to offer. In one of his books (SEIA, I think), Philip Greenspun tells of some discussion system built for an Ivy League law department (Harvard or Yale). It was in Q&A format, and people complained that the first to come out with a quick, less thought out, answer received a lot more credit than someone who took the time to reflect on it and write a response of Keith M. Ellis proportion. What they did to reset the balance was to put a delay on the publication of answers: basically, you had 12, 24 or 48 ours to secretly write your answer, and then all the submitted answers became public at the same time. In this situation, the person coming out as most thoughtful gets far more credit than the quick one-paragrapher. I was thinking of HourlyFilter: comments are kept in a secret cache from the time of their writing, and the cache is flushed every hour. It help prevents quick one-liners and slow down flame wars (a good or bad thing, depending on your position) and would presumably help us achieve great depth of dicussion.
  • Link to relevant chapter in SEIA.
  • Perhaps this is the poly of which you speak?
  • Nah, it's more likely he was thinking of Polly Esther or Poly Styrene.
  • mk1gti, if you don't have any experience running a board, you may be surprised to find out how much work is involved on a daily basis - particularly if you're attempting to maintain civilized conversation. You will find yourself policing every single post, reprimanding members who will not take it well, deleting trolls, banning troublesome IP addresses, and resetting passwords, all while struggling to remain cheerfully helpful to newbies who peep at you for assistance. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. If you're interested, it's a great experience (once). I'm just saying you may want to take this into account before launching into the project. It will take up far more of your time than you currently could possibly imagine, and this time will almost certainly not be financially compensated.
  • The issues mechagrue points out could be fairly crushing... assuming of course that you get any visitors at all! I would say that, if your main desire is just to have a good political discussion forum, you'd do best to try to pimp Devoter or similar like mad. The place is still in the proto-commenting stage where it lacks the crtical mass for a self-sustaining board culture. Getting in at the ground floor could make you a powerful voice. Of course, then you lose the direct moditorial control over the civil tone you're looking for...
  • mk1gti: the last thing the internet needs is another place for unfiltered discussion. I think we need to bring back the face-to-face discussion. You want to use the internet, use it to arrange real world "dates" between people in the same area who disagree with each other. I had another idea that was pure internet: a website where you invite some of the more influential bloggers to argue the exact opposite of what they normally argue. They are judges to ensure the faked argument is cogent and sounds sincere. There is a scoreboard, and maybe even tournaments. The idea is to use bloggers' bloviations against themselves. The most argumentative won't be able to resist the challenge. But in constructing their mirror-world arguments,they may learn something. What do you all think?
  • yeah, bizarro-argument.com might just work.
  • Four More Fears This may be the year when we finally come face to face with ourselves; finally just lay back and say it -- that we are really just a nation of 220 million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns, and no qualms at all about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable. Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail (November 1972) Hunter S. Thompson (( Snagged From Billmon. "Which was once the best forum or polemic about the daily political spin filtering through the press and blogosphere", sadly he seams to have burned out, "perhaps the price one's tribute in gaining success".))
  • The biggest problem is getting the clout to get the A-List bloggers to do the bizarro-thing. Unless you're A-List yourself, or can get the support of someone who is, you dont stand much of a chance.
  • Richer: Maybe it doesn't have to be A-listers. Anyway, sorry for the threadjack. Caffeine does bad things to me.
  • Beware of civility and politeness in the guise of inoffensive banality. Just sayin'
  • Alex: you sick, uncivil fuck.
  • A-Listers. Bah. I have such a problem with the whole "A lister" tag. A fact of life I guess, like the popular kids in high school. Do it. Piss on the A listers.
  • yeah, metafilter is great, but they're not accepting new members at this time. You can have my login, mk1gti. Email me from your gmail account (my addy is in my profile), and I'll send you the password in return. Good luck in getting Matthowie to change the password, though.
  • Not accepting new members was the beginning of the end for MeFi, just got to be the same old staleys.
  • Have you thought through what you might be getting yourself into? Crooked Timber tried to have a civilized discussion about the problems of having a civilized discussion about the Israel/Palestine issue. A metadiscussion, should be safe. Mmm hmmm. A lot of comments got deleted, that thread is closed but as a taste of what you might be getting yourself into have a look. It wasn't actually that bad, though obviously it would be more interesting to know what comments got deleted. Some issues just seem to push people's buttons, and even when they think they are being reasonable and restrained, it definitely doesn't come across that way. Mind you, one of the commenters thought that Juan Cole (website) was a nutcase foaming Israel hater (my paraphrasing) so......thoughtful political discussion can run into some problems.
  • [Thanks polychrome - that was very interesting linkage]
  • Hmmmmm, it seems like it might be more work than I had originally planned on, but I think I still might pursue it later on. One thing I've noticed here is that, for the most part people are unfailingly polite. I don't know if it's because the site hasn't been found by 'the teeming hoard' or if it just has an 'atmosphere', but it would be nice to have a similar place where that same kind of atmosphere could exist in a political sphere. Just sayin' . . .
  • One thing I've noticed here is that, for the most part people are unfailingly polite. It's because Monkeybashi's moderation-technique is unstoppable.
  • Let's all give props to moderation technique!
  • *strikes a pose* Actually, although I do indeed read every single thread (except, I freely admit, the blogstop threads), it's enjoyable work and I only get "help me!" emails once a week on average, asking for a new password or how to use HTML or whether $post is appropriate. I have had a few (well-documented) issues with individual users in the recent past but generally people react well enough when given what I hope is a gentle nudge. One thing you'll learn, mk1gti, is diplomacy. And admittedly, you'll probably find that the level of polite discourse we generally have here will be harder to maintain when the chief topic is politics.
  • Trying to manage a site like that sounds like a thankless and ultimately discouraging task. I'm a Devoter fan too. I regularly check the posts; I'll have to participate more.
  • ... and I think monkeys are a restrained and courteous troop because we wear those little organ-grinder caps and carry tin cups. That keeps everyone humble, as it were.
  • When I first read this idea I thought, 'devoter' and 'ick no' now I'm starting to wonder if we don't need a Canadian one (since we have an American one, a European one, a french one). Rules to get in will be simple. When you register you will have to explain the meaning behind at least 10 variations of the use of, 'eh'. Who really invented the light bulb. What Boxing day is about and a mini essay on the right way to make poutine (an optional 5 points will be given if you can pronounce it correctly) If you can't answer correctly, can't get in ... heh Not intended to be snarky, trying to be humourous about it but I am really really getting tired of the Amercian-centric web. I'm not tired of politics - just the focus on the one country all the time and the focus of that discussion (like voting).
  • You're right beeza. American culture is fascinated with itself, and tends to push other interests aside. Do you really think the internet itself is dominated by the American ethos? Interesting notion, not sure how one would measure that. Access to technology doesn't seem to address the issue.
  • beeza: although I'm a bona fide Canadian (at least, my passport and birth certificate say so), I could only answer the one about Poutine. Don't forget Quebec.
  • I agree re the american-centric web. And I'm an american (small a) I so much would love to find out more about other parts of the world other than this belly-button obsessed 'murican thang'. I love Vancouver, by the way beeza, perhaps I'll relocate there in the not too distant future. . . Oh, don't forget that Canadians love gravy on their french fries. Little thing I discovered on my first visit to a 'Burger King' up there. Or is that just unique to Canadian Burger Kings?
  • richler I don't think I could pass the application process for foreigners who want to come to Canada ... lol I'm not sure about the gravy mk1gti, I rarely eat fast food and when I do eat french fries I like them plain with some salt and occassionally with some ketchup. Though do find it interesting that up here when you ask for a iced tea you get NestlĂ© or some other brand and just across the border in Blaine you get a cold tea and packets of lemon juice. The McDonalds on Canal Street in New Orleans offered a cajun burger - something I'd never seen before so might be regional - will have to ask other monkeys though. I love Vancouver - but then again I'm biased.
  • Fries with gravy is one ingredient short of poutine. Most fast-food restaurants here (Quebec) offer it (except for some American chains / but McDonalds does). I never order fries with gravy, though. For me it's poutine or straight fries.
  • And Cajun/Mexican/Texan food goes in and out of style in big fast-food chains. It's usually just flavor of the month, tho.
  • Just found this
    nifty little recipe for poutine. Had to look it up... Richer got me curious (^_^)
  • TABASCO IN A POUTINE!?@# BLASPHEMOUS!. I like italian poutine (with spaghetti sauce) myself.
  • Richer surprised you didn't yell blasphemy at the mozarella cheese. A true poutine uses cheese curds that squeak when chewed, no mozarella or processed cheese. and one day I'll get everyones name correct around here, I promise
  • Richer - I only got Boxing Day, so we're even : ) (Is poutine pronounced like the Russian president's name? I always say "poo-teen" but I heard that's not right.)
  • I don't know. We pronouce his name exactly like we pronounce poutine. I guess it doesn't really matter. beeza: depends on regional variations, really. In Lac-Saint-Jean, ground mozarella is the default poutine cheese. Maybe that's where they found the tabasco idea.