November 03, 2004

• *blink* A thread made specifically to troll others. Not a great idea.
• I haven't got the strength of will for it. Sorry.
• I wouldn't give them the satisfaction of stereotyping liberals as "screeching." They think differently than I do. They may think that gays are evil and out to eat their precious children on toast. I don't. They may think that there are terrist nukulur warheads aimed at their Midwest cornfields. I don't. Thus, we voted differently. If both sides can take this gracefully, it will go down a lot easier all around. Done.
• If both sides can take this gracefully, it will go down a lot easier all around. Translation: We should eat shit and smile. No thanks.
• What Wurwilf said. Bad idea for a post.
• As an ABB guy, I'm not pissed at all. I'm surprised, depressed, and fear for the future of our country. I don't think beating up on some Bushies is gonna help that.
• No, I didn't say like it. I said take it gracefully - perhaps "maturely" is a better word. Rather than screaming "fuck you fuck you fuck you," brace for impact and try to do something to make life better. Work so that it doesn't go this way again. Which do you think will have a more positive impact in the long run?
• Work so that it doesn't go this way again. Which do you think will have a more positive impact in the long run? You're assuming an extreme Right party would allow the country to reevaluate its decision in four years. Very optimistic. Frankly, I read the "take it easy" comments and wince. Most of the people who say this have little to lose with evangelicals in power.
• I wonder if Jose Padilla got to vote?
• I wouldn't want to berate anyone, but I do want to ask this of Bush supporters: What sort of nation should this country be? How should we think of ourselves in relation to the world? Is freedom the same thing as security, peace as war? If you support Bush but are not fantastically wealthy, how do you feel about his economic policies? How can the war in Iraq be justified, considering the lack of evidence that the nation was ever a real threat, or that it had anything to do with 9/11?
• clockzero- sample size of one. A Bush voter who claimed they would normally vote for Kerry (or independent) but voted for Bush because they were worried that Kerry would tell the truth about Iraq, thereby depressing the American people so much that they would pull out of Iraq. And thus create a worse mess. And that was it. On every other issue, including the ones you raise, they were, and stated plainly, anti-Bush. Take that for what it's worth.
• And yeah, as far as the concept of this thread goes, I've met too many otherwise nice, decent people who, nevertheless, support Bush to want to flame away.
• met too many otherwise nice, decent people who, nevertheless, support Bush Really? Cuz I haven't. :( Not a Bush bash so much as just a question: who was it that said "People get the government they deserve"? I was writing it on the white board in my cube this morning, and on the net found it ascribed variously to H.L. Mencken, Thomas Jefferson, and Anonymous. Anybody know the proper attribution?
• Poly, Because Americans are fucking dumb! (and yes that includes me and Blacks, whites, jews, hispanics, indians, hindus, etc)... honestly, that's embarrasing that someone would say that.
• Meh. I'm done now. It is what it is, and (the collective) we made it happen. Now we deal.
• My suggestion: Join the ACLU. Never thought I'd voluntarily donate money to lawyers, but I did today. Their whole purpose is to protect the civil liberties afforded to us by the Constitution. I suspect they're going to become a lot busier over the next four years, from the looks of things.
• neek: expect a visit from Mr. Ashcroft soon. Ashcroft: QUIET, YOU!
• I'm in the same boat as clockzero. I really want to know what people were thinking, and the underlying assumptions that informed their thoughts. I think there are a lot of problems coming for the US (militarily/foreign policy-wise as well as economically), and I'm not sure Kerry would do brilliantly or solve them, but I'm pretty sure that Bush's policy plans won't help and will hurt. Obviously a lot of people felt the other way, and I wonder why they thought Bush would do better at solving our problems when some of them were created on his watch. (Obviously not all the economic ones, but Iraq is his baby.)
• Diebold
• "Most of the people who say this have little to lose with evangelicals in power"... yeah, Alex...I hear you...cuz GOD knows I have something to lose (pun totally intented)... it'll be nice to be able to marry my BF. Alas, I don't think I'll be able to. Not in the US anyway... And you know what? the concept of this thread was for those who have something to say in the way of Bush's re-election having a negative effect, and the fools who chose him...so fuck off if you don't like it. The spirits are high and I am in no mood for political correcteness. Particularly after my counterparts have shown no mercy, or respect.
• Oh, come on. Nobody can manage even one little "fuck you?"
• Just a little, tiny one. C'mon.
• I'm a pitifully poor Bush supporter, as I have already stated that I'd planned to vote for Kerry, but I have supported Bush, after a fashion, in the past, and do not count his victory as either the defining moment in modern history or an altogether unsatisfactory result. So: What sort of nation should this country be? I don't think this nation should *be* any particular thing. We are as diverse a nation, in peoples, creeds and ideologies, as has ever existed. I feel this is one of sources of strength, in that our diversity gives us flexibility. Monoliths topple. I think we should continue to be a diverse, raucous gaggle of wildly different people. How should we think of ourselves in relation to the world? As part of it, not separate. For a long time, America's geographical isolation has fostered a sort of psychological barrier between us and the rest of the world, and I would see that lessened. I do not think, however, that this automatically means we should kowtow to the world. While America may be flawed, the rest of the world is not without it's faults either, and often as not has damned America regardless of stance. We should be more open to the world, and the world should be less ready to denounce us in return. Is freedom the same thing as security, peace as war? Certainly not, of course. But two things come to mind on this: one, that it is the government's job to guarantee as best it can the security of it's people. This is the defining element of government itself! And second, Americans have historically *always* traded, over time, security for freedom, and I am sure we will do so again. One need only look at what is today required to board a plane, compared to what was required even so small a time as a year ago, to see this trend.
• If you support Bush but are not fantastically wealthy Guilty, I suppose. how do you feel about his economic policies? I dislike many of them, like others. But I also keep in mind that the affect a president has over the economy is neither unlimited nor omniscient. Presidents may benefit from good economies, suffer from bad, but in general they (happily!) do not have a huge effect on them. The American economy is a huge, ponderous thing, and governmentm, while it may influence it indirectly, cannot control it. How can the war in Iraq be justified, considering the lack of evidence that the nation was ever a real threat, or that it had anything to do with 9/11? I've said this in lengthier terms here before, so I'll keep it brief: in my opinion, if one wanted to reduce organized middle eastern terrorism over the long term, one would be foolish to try and wipe them out individually - better would be to deny them their historical avenues of support and succour, to wit: the various terror-supporting nations in the middle east. Iraq was the largest military power in the middle east, had supported terror in the past, was governed by a well-hated dictator, and is centrally located in the region. By conquering Iraq, several things could be accomplished: the introduction of democracy to the middle east, the defanging of a local threat and most importantly the placing of a large military force in a centrally located position in the region, to serve as the iron fist in the velvet glove of diplomacy. If a strong American military presence approaches, say, Syria, and says "We would like you to stop supporting terrorists," the unstated end of that sentence could be seen as "...or you'll end up in the same boat as Saddam." That would be persusaive. But I think that Bush, et al, thought they couldn't sell that to the American people, so they cooked up the present danger of WMDs on the not so wild assumption that Saddam had them (he'd dogged imspectors for years, and basically intimated that he'd had them up to the start of the war). This ended up blowing up in their faces, for which they are rightly excoriated. But (again, my opinion), the underlying assumptions against an Iraq war, in light of the eventual goal of persuading the other states in the region to back off their support for terrorists, was a good one. I would have preferred, obviously, that it had been better implemented.
• So my question to Bush supporters is: When did not sharing conservative moral values become not having any moral values at all?
• One need only look at what is today required to board a plane, compared to what was required even so small a time as a year ago, to see this trend. I haven't noticed any special changes, but I assume you fly much more than I do. Do you or anyone else want to elaborate on this?
• I agree with Wurwilf. If we wear ourselves out with the "fuck yous," we'll be too tired/defeated/depressed to do what it takes to make sure that America becomes the great place we want it to be. *shrug* And, truthfully, being all bitchy about it does nothing but raise our own blood pressure and allow the other party to perform their agenda anyway. So, why don't we take our angry energy and channel it into useful action? Let's take our tantrums (and believe me, I *really want* to have one!) and turn them into change.
• To my neighbour, a Bush supporter who woke me up at 7 freaking am with his yelling (at his girlfriend I believe) about Wolf Blitzer's liberal bias, I offer a big FU. ;)
• Never mind. They'll be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
• Alex: One might restate that question as "when did having a more traditional moral code become tantamount to fundamentalism colored by hypocrisy?" Sections of each side make assumptions about the other as a whole; moral questions are twice as polarizing as political ones. Each side ought to consider how their morals, which are individual and inherently personal, translate into political policy, and whether or not that is how morals should be applied. Furiousdork: I don't fly a huge amount, but in the last year, in my experience, boarding a plane has gotten a lot easier, and negotiating security a lot smoother. In the year after 9/11, I flew perhaps half a dozen times, and was stopped for personal search twice, including one rather exhaustive one. In the past year, I have flown 8-9 times, and have not be stopped for search once, have not seen the random searches that used to be commonplace, have seen backups at the security checkpoints reduced dramatically, and have heard far less stories of onerous security than previously.
• I am more pissed at Kerry. How the fuck can he concede? I want a recount in Ohio with the provisional ballots. Kerry should have that state. Turn Ohio into Florida but this time Bush is gonna lose. This is bullshit.
• I'm confused about what exactly happened. Kerry is looking like a quitter. Ugh, screw that. Still, tonight I'm going to compile a list of places to volunteer for / donate to. I've never been all that motivated, but the fatalism I keep seeing is driving me insane. Do not go gentle into that good night, etc.
• FUCK YOU, YOU STUPID FUCKING REPUBLICAN TWATS!!!! I HOPE THAT ALL THE HORRIBLE THINGS IN LIFE HAPPEN ONLY TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES. I HOPE YOUR CHILDREN ARE SENT TO FIGHT IN THIS WAR ON TERROR AND THEY DIE COLD AND ALONE, SAND GRINDING IN THEIR BLEEDING, SHRAPNEL INFESTED WOUNDS, NEVER TO DRIVE BLOATED SUV PIECES OF SHIT EVER AGAIN, OR FINGER FUCK SALLY IN THE BARN. I HOPE EVERY YEAR THE HURRICANES GET WORSE AND WORSE AND ALL YOUR CITIZENS ARE WASHED OUT TO SEA, DROWNING ON A MIXTURE OF FEAR-INDUCED VOMIT AND SEAWATER! SO FUCK YOU FLORIDA! FUCK YOU OHIO! meh... still don't feel any better. Oh well... how bad could this possibly get, it's only 4 more years... *braces for shitstorm*
• Fes, "I think we should continue to be a diverse, raucous gaggle of wildly different people. " yeah, that would be nice, except that the pasteurizing process that laws proposed and introduced by the right wing allow for about 50% of our total "diverse" and I suppose "Inherently Creative" capacity. "We should be more open to the world" I coudn't agree with you more. "One need only look at what is today required to board a plane, compared to what was required even so small a time as a year ago, to see this trend. " What? a harder look at my license? cos I've flow all over and security doesn't really seem all that different. "Guilty, I suppose." Assuming you're not overly wealthy, you can't really suppose, you're guilty. "Presidents may benefit from good economies, suffer from bad, but in general they (happily!) do not have a huge effect on them" With the exception of War. A time in which they can plunder and pillage as much of it as "necessary", oh and the tax laws passed by Bush, yeah, those do affect the economy overall...you can't afford to make any mistakes. Particularly not when you're 7 trillion in debt, and with a looming China in the horizon... We're the middle man, and sooner or later we'll get removed. "several things could be accomplished:"... Fes, after all this time...none of those things have been achieved. Some partially, but none fully...and yes, we can continue to hope that it'll change, but I can guarantee you that the American Economy, although "Huge" and "Ponderous" is by no means Limitless, and adapting another country of millions to a real democracy could take years... So all your air comes down to this, who'd you vote for? and do you feel stupid if you voted for(or supported) Bush? I know I would
• I don't want to bash Bushies, but I do have this question for the much vaunted and invisible YOUTH OF AMERICA: WHAT. THE. FUCK. IS. WRONG. WITH. YOU? Enjoy your time in Iraq, kids. Be sure you pack the iPods.
• Enjoy your time in Iraq, kids. Be sure you pack the iPods. Maybe that's how the country will avoid a draft: "Enlist and get a free, limited-edition U2 iPod! Chill out to Bono's latest hits whilst interrogating Iraqi citizens into a bloody pulp."
• Alex: One might restate that question as "when did having a more traditional moral code become tantamount to fundamentalism colored by hypocrisy?" Sections of each side make assumptions about the other as a whole; moral questions are twice as polarizing as political ones. Each side ought to consider how their morals, which are individual and inherently personal, translate into political policy, and whether or not that is how morals should be applied. I'm sorry, Fes, but that's no answer at all: Your people are in power now. It's time to be accountable for what you stand for and the policies that your people have enacted (and will enact).
• pasteurizing process that laws proposed and introduced by the right wing One president proposes, another disposes. I look to the Constitution, which says "All men are created equal," and guarantees their equal rights and responsbilities. This law or that law can be passed, but if they go against the Constitution, they will eventually fail. The tyranny of the majority has been thwarted many times this way, and will continue to be so. I've flow all over and security doesn't really seem all that different Mileage may vary, I guess. But I reassert that, though the example may be flawed, the point is sound. you can't afford to make any mistakes. Particularly not when you're 7 trillion in debt, and with a looming China in the horizon I do not, by and large, consider Bush to be a wildly successsful president, economy-wise, for these and other reasons. who'd you vote for? I was unable to vote at all, due to familial responsibilities that prevented me from doing so. Details in the big election thread from yesterday, if you're interested. I had planned to vote for Kerry, primarily for and based on the reasons so lucidly outlined in the Economist article from earlier this week, but had rather half-assedly supported Bush prior to that. In general, I typically vote third party, and had Nader been on the ballot in Illinois AND had I been able to make it to the polls, I'd likely have voted for him.
• Your people are in power now. Hardly. I differ on many issues with this Administration, as I expect that you might differ on certain issues with a Kerry administration. We are each individuals, accountable for ourselves. Republican do not march in ideological lockstep any more than Democrats do.
• Which is to say that a lack of temporal power does not excuse prejudice, villification and rancor on their part. Hate on the Left today is no more laudable or justifiable than hate on the Right during the Clinton administration, and I am proud to have decried both.
• I just wanted to say thanks to Fes for... well, you know. Thanks.
• of all the things you said there, Fes, this was the most relevant: "This law or that law can be passed, but if they go against the Constitution, they will eventually fail" Obvioulsy!!! except that the constitution has a tendency to serve those who control it at the time. And republicans now have the majority of seats. And republicans are biased. The rest of what you said did have relevance, in the way that incoherent talk proves that lunatics require medical help.
• Take it down a notch, please. Fes has been nothing but a reasonable gentleman in the face of all the bile we've been spewing all over the site today.
• Once the Supreme Court justices start to fall, I fear we will witness the dismantling of the constitutional controls that have protected us until now. I hope I'm wrong.
• Sorry, there was a typo in that last comment. It should read "...reasonable, articulate, generous, classy, intelligent, calm gentleman..."
• MCT, if you must label it, let me be the "Un-reasonable" to his "reasonable". oinkay?
• It is all so sad, I have no wish to berate anyone. I just don't understand how Bush and Company are ever going to do anything for our country but hurt us. I can't change the results of this election, so I have to accept what is coming. It makes me anxious, for I have no clear idea as what is coming for us, war and more war keeps popping into my head, civil rights violations, economical demise... the list is long. My gut feeling says it won't be pretty. I can't shake the feeling of impending doom that hangs overhead.
• Debaser626, it'll be interesting to see how Ohio is washed out to sea.
• Upon waking, I had that heart-in-the-throat feeling that one sometimes gets after a particularly sad dream. After reading the cold, hard, disheartening facts, I tried to find some kind of temporary solace here at MoFi. While many of the comments have been astute and propitious, none of them can wipe away the cloying dread that I feel. "The most important election in American history." No, maybe not. But what will be wrought by this administration, now that it has the vote of confidence from the silent, fundamentalist, Christian, Fox News-watching majority, will not be undone for decades. And it will be a god-awful mess, a mess that will take years of toil and piss and vinegar to clean up, and even then I'll feel a little dirty, like I can't quite get the stink out. I don't mean to be a fatalist, but I can't see any outcome that isn't dysmal - dystopian, even. But perhaps I'm being impetuous. I hope I'm wrong - often, I am - but I called this for Bush with the hope that I'd be wrong. Reading back over this, I doubt anyone wants to hear my superficial ranting - but, for whatever quasi-trollish reason, I'm posting it anyway. Go me.
• I will shake it though. Be nice monkeys, Fes has been a gentleman and courteous to all.
• Debaser626, it'll be interesting to see how Ohio is washed out to sea. Skrik... I'll just assume you were joking... you were joking, right?
• ...and please stop kissing Fes's ass...he's just another Monkey.
• ...and please stop kissing Fes's ass...he's just another Monkey Nah, go fuck yourself.
• Fes: Which is to say that a lack of temporal power does not excuse prejudice, villification and rancor on their part. Agreed, but who is in a position do more damage? I might call people nasty names but with the three branches of government now owned by the GOP, they can write up laws to have me and my friends and loved ones thrown in prison or killed for sedition, sodomy, whatever is convenient. And if you don't think that can happen, I'll point you to pretty much any book in the history section of your local library. With several positions in the SCOTUS up for grabs, and a GOP-led House, Senate and Presidency, the evangelicals are running the country. I think it's safe to say this is bad news for moderates everywhere (and most certainly any left-leaning folk). Notes to the peanut gallery that think Fes is getting attacked personally: If you play devil's advocate, expect to get these questions.
• "I voted for Bush because he's trustworthy." You deserve whatever you get, then.
• Fes-- You mentioned in your response to my questions about Iraq that one worthy goal was to "bring democracy to the Middle East". First, it was, before the invasion, the most democratic nation in that region. We've essentially tried to conquer Iraq, though, not bring it democracy; we want to control it through military force. How is that compatible with democratic sovereignty? You also said that we've established a base of operations in that region, now, from which to threaten any nation which would harbor terrorists; but Iraq itself is far from secure. We couldn't afford to invade another nation at all with our troop commitment, and other countries surely know this. How, then, could we credibly threaten a nation? Also...if the Bush administration really needed a base of operations, why did they choose to conquer a large sovereign nation to get it? Was there absolutely no other way?
• Hate on the Left today is no more laudable or justifiable than hate on the Right during the Clinton administration Quick history lesson: 1. Clinton got a blowjob 2. Bush dragged the U.S. into an unjustified war which has claimed more than 1,000 American lives and by some estimates 100,000 Iraqi lives thus far, while dividing the country more deeply than it's been in my lifetime. Spare me the ridiculous analogy, please.
• HawthorneWingo, there's more to it than that. The Right under Clinton saw him as a one world government supporter, among other things.
• The Right under Clinton saw him as a one world government supporter, among other things. *Yawn* The Right saw King Bush I in the same light. Fox/Murdoch just hates moderates and left-leaners.
• I'm delighted by the outcome of this election. I look forward to things getting really bad over the next several years. The erosion of civil liberties, abortion rights repealed, the return of the draft (under the new name: Patriot Action), brutal retaliations against "anti"-Americans (liberal film-makers, artists, musicians, writers, activists, gays, etc.) environmental holocausts...the list is endless! Will the Democratic leadership learn from these experiences? Will the crushing defeats Republicans suffered during the sixties and the subsequent quiet and successful retooling of their strategies be a lesson for the Dems? Will they blow it in '08 by making moronic decisions like choosing Hillary? Or will they finally stop overestimating the intelligence of the American voting public (like the GOP finally did in 1980) and choose a package that's easier to open with contents that are simpler to understand? Let's wait 'n see.
• ...and please stop kissing Fes's ass...he's just another Monkey. Who happens to be acting like an intelligent grownup. There's been a whole lot of pissing on the site today. Fes has been a voice of reason. Notes to the peanut gallery that think Fes is getting attacked personally: If you play devil's advocate, expect to get these questions. ... The rest of what you said did have relevance, in the way that incoherent talk proves that lunatics require medical help. This is an example of a personal attack. I'm just saying we can do without that. It makes us look small and petty.
• "Democrats light, Republicans DARK. Democrats happy, Republicans MEAN." badonkadonk, I really think you're onto something with your analysis. Really. Makes me even sadder to be an American, today.
• The Right under Clinton saw him as a one world government supporter, among other things. Which proves my point that negative emotion coming from the left has much more basis in reality than the negative emotion towards Clinton had.
• What mct said. And although I don't agree with everything Fes is saying, I do like his tone.
• The Right under Clinton saw him as a one world government supporter, among other things. my impression was that the right under clinton saw him as occupying the seat of power they had long considered their birthright and all of the hatred derived from that. with a huge range of differing views on social policy, the u.s. right is forced to rely on hatred and vilification as unifying forces.
• Fes: See, apart from the differences outlined by HawthorneWingo, the left doesn't suffer from the hatred of gay people, and the ability to attempt to justify torturing "brown people" as "hazing" or legally permissible somehow. That is a whole different kind of hate. The gloves are off. To support the republicans is to support torture and bigotry. Full Stop.
• The rest of what you said did have relevance, in the way that incoherent talk proves that lunatics require medical help. I definitely agree that this kind of statement isn't going to help anything here, but guiltily I have to admit I think it's funny.
• "Democrats light, Republicans DARK. Democrats happy, Republicans MEAN." anally expletive, anally retentive
• To support the republicans is to support torture and bigotry. Freen, how many people do you think you're going to convince with that kind of rhetoric? It's like saying, "If you drive a car, you support torture and bigotry." That's great if that's what you believe, but if you want to make society a better place, you need to do the hard work of understanding why people voted the way they did and how to convince them to do otherwise. Never mind the fact that that way of thinking is potentially as fascistic as anything the right could dream up.
• The Quid Kid: Thank you, I already do. MCT: I'm not "attacking" his views any more or less than he's "vilifying" mine. and whoever else, you may like his pace...but if you can comprehend thru his airy speeches, then you'll probably notice that they say nothing of relevance to this topic. I'll say it again, I'm not really looking for political correctness and that should, by default, tell you that I'm not above being small and petty.
• "...and this breaking story just coming in: Reuters are reporting that 'this kind of shit is exactly why you lost'. For more on that now, we're going over to Flack Hornburger, who is at the scene. Flack?" "Thanks Chip. Yes, details are still sketchy, but it does appear that this kind of shit is exactly why you lost. We're trying to make sense of it here on the ground right now, but if what we're hearing is correct, then it seems that one of the reasons you lost is because you just wouldn't let up with this kind of shit. Preliminary polling data would seem to show a significant demographic emerging in the "Jesus, enough already" column. One eyewitness said, 'I've been working all hours of the day for the past two weeks telling people that I'd call them a stupid cunt if they didn't vote the way I wanted them to, but now it seems like they just haven't come through for me. I'm very disappointed. In them.' As I say, this story is developing all the time, but here at the scene the focus is increasingly on why you lost, and the word is that shit of this kind may have been a crucial factor. Back to you in the studio, Chip." "Thanks Flack. Now over to Pond Scumley, who has the sport..."
• Hawthorne: [I]f you want to make society a better place, you need to do the hard work of understanding why people voted the way they did and how to convince them to do otherwise. That requires nuance. Nuance doesn't do well in the polls. People need meaningless sound bites, like, "Being a president is hard work", or, "You can run, but you can't hide from your record," or, "Lesbians are overrunning our schools." Trying to explain to these people why these are fucked-up ideas is a waste of time: they don't want to listen. The people have spoken.
• lol...O my Alex, that article is beyond dysfunctional...LOL...wow. I love your research skills.
• HawthorneWingo: Driving a car is not a political statement in favor of a number of specific policies. I don't get you analogy. I know why people voted the way they did. Bigotry and Fear. In apartheid South Africa, it is morally justified to just go along with your fellow afrikaners and say yeah well, i'm not going to be too tough on you, i'm not going to call you bigots, cus i'm going to be nice and try to convince you with kind words and flowery rhetoric? Nope. I call a spade a spade. Bush is right, you are either with him or against him. There really is no middle ground. Abortion is going to be outlawed. Hell, the Texas Republican Party wants to go back to the god damned gold standard, and treat homosexuals as the equivalent of child molesters, and abolish the federal income tax!!!!! Jesus doesn't anybody ever read the party platforms? Ever?
• The gloves are off. To support the republicans is to support torture and bigotry. Full Stop. Sorry, Hawthorne, but there is an element of truth to this that can't be denied. These people are in power, now, and they have demonstrated time and again their intolerance of anyone who does not fit the mold. That fact should scare any reasonable, patriotic American.
• America fucked up again. What to do about it? Do something about it. If you feel people who voted for Bush are uneducated or naive figure out if there's a way to educate or enlighten them. The middle of the country is not going to go away. Those suckers are going to vote again in four years. If there is a vote. Easy to say as a Canadian, I know. Still.
• Precisely Alex, nuance is for the intellectual elite liberals who shoild get their volvo driving, sushi eatin', UN supporting, gay marrying butts back to working in laboratories to produce miracles of science, and expand the realms of human knowledge and technological ability. Nascar dads love their liberal scientist created satellite dish, and their wild liberal movie industry. Nuance, however is not for the nascar dads. We need soundbites. Cheap labor conservatives. Bigots and torturers. The fact that the blue states effectively pay for the federal government and the red states feed at the trough, well, that's just a bit too complicated for them.
• This was a really bad idea for a post, Warrior. Can I suggest that if you want to spew hate at people and encourage others to do so, you start your own blog? Fes has been the epitome of grace in the last 24 hours and has explained his reasoning eloquently. It's unfair to then turn around and insult him anyway. I thank everyone who has taken this thread and made/kept it civil. However, if it devolves further into petty namecalling, it'll be deleted outright. I don't like it and I'd rather not have it on the front page for everyone to see. MonkeyFilter is certainly not about harassing people in public to satisfy your personal disappointment.
• Republican do not march in ideological lockstep any more than Democrats do. Really? You sure about that? I'm not convinced.
• That requires nuance. Nuance doesn't do well in the polls. A nuanced knowledge of citizens' behavior and a simple political message are by no means mutually exclusive. In fact, if you want to have an effective simple political message, you'd damn well better understand whom you're talking to.
• And Alex, they're ascendant right now, but the neo-cons are not the only Republicans out there. In fact, you can make a strong argument that our best hope for the U.S. right now is reality-based Republicans. Certainly isn't the Democratic Party.
• The fact that the blue states effectively pay for the federal government and the red states feed at the trough, well, that's just a bit too complicated for them. Is this true? From where I sit, it looks like a great bulk of government spending takes place in the blue states, in the form of things like infrastructure, services, etc. I think you need to prove this assumption rather than taking what I'm suspecting may be a faith-based logical leap.
• Simple political messages and grey-shaded reality are mutually exclusive. Keeping it simple requires dumbing down an explanation until little of substance is left behind. Let's take an example: My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. I think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people. WTF? What comprehensive view is that? Another tasty soundbite, let's move on, folks... On that note, on this example alone, where the fuck was the media to call Bush on his so-called "comprehensive" view? The debate process is not only built around protecting the two-party system but to ensure that no serious questions are asked of candidates, once the marketing/polling politicodroids in the backrooms get their message out in the two-minute framework. The media hates nuance as much as the electorate. Give them something short and sweet that they can run between the commercials.
• In fact, you can make a strong argument that our best hope for the U.S. right now is reality-based Republicans. Certainly isn't the Democratic Party. Agreed on that last point. Did they ever bungle up this job, or what?
• Hawthorne: Is this true? From where I sit, it looks like a great bulk of government spending takes place in the blue states, in the form of things like infrastructure, services, etc. I think you need to prove this assumption rather than taking what I'm suspecting may be a faith-based logical leap. I think Freen is referring to this report from the non-partisan Tax Foundation.
• Simple political messages and grey-shaded reality are mutually exclusive. Somebody should have told Clinton that. It was a waste of his time even running for President those two times, really.
• Delete it if you must. wouldn't be the first time I'm silenced, wouldn't be the last one.
• I'm sorry, but Clinton voted for don't-ask-don't-tell, the Defense of Marriage Act and for NAFTA. Despite the Right's rabid hatred of him, he is as much one of their fold. With the Internet boom, Clinton's populism for the second term hardly needed to be rooted in confronting reality all that much. His first term was entirely rooted in a simplistic worldview ("don't stop believing in tomorrow" etc.).
• In fact, you can make a strong argument that our best hope for the U.S. right now is reality-based Republicans. The reality-based Republicans don't have a snowball's chance in Hell. Tom DeLay, quoted by our SideDish. Certainly isn't the Democratic Party. Will Rogers said it almost a century ago: "I don't belong to any organized party. I'm a Democrat." The Demos' long run in power was based on being a genuine 'big tent', including most Southern Bigots and a lot of other unpleasant people. When Lyndon Johnson made a commitment to Civil Rights, he lost that constituancy, and Nixon's "Southern Strategy" made them a permanent part of the Republican base. Historically, damn near everything Liberal that has been accomplished in the U.S.A. required either careful finessing (of which FDR was the master) or by-passing the electorate (much to the credit of Earl Warren's epipheny when he became Chief Justice - nobody can ever be that courageous again). People like us area permanent minority in this nation (blame the reverse correlation between intelligence and family size), and the Mortal Majority now has us where they want us. I really should write this in a thread that isn't destined to be deleted...
• area s/b "are a"
• Simple political messages and grey-shaded reality are mutually exclusive. Keeping it simple requires dumbing down an explanation until little of substance is left behind. Do you think Karl Rove doesn't see the nuances before dumbing them down into the official message? Of course he does! That's all I'm saying. I don't see what's so hard to understand.
• Alex, you're right about Clinton's conservative legacy. What I'm anticipatng is a Democratic party that goes even more in that direction, to "pick off" the "reality based" Republicans. Which means an even more gaping hole on the left. Which means it's back to voting Green for me.
• There's a difference in what you're saying and what I'm saying. What you're saying is that most nuance gets boiled down to an official message. What I'm saying is that most nuance gets boiled down to an empty platitude that could just as well come out of the mouth of either candidate. My point is that nuance is needed for smart people to make good decisions. It's hard to decide between two people whose idea of politicking is to repeat the equivalent of "keep your chin up, America" and rest on personal charisma or national service to draw votes.
• So, hope for people like us lays, what, in the hand of "rational" republicans? Is there such as beast? if so, can he/she survive without being silenced a la Colin Powell? Not in this admin.
• No, Warrior, not in this administration -- but yes, in the Republican Party (or at least in the even-more-conservative-trending Democratic Party, for whom one viable [albeit unattractive to us lefties] option now becomes trying to win over today's "rational Republicans" ). If not, well then it may well be time to head to Canada.
• So the country had decided to go for the religious right -the side that is actively working to bring about the apocalypse. What is scary though, is that I honestly think that many Bush supporters KNOW this about Bush... and that they too want to bring the apocalypse. The majority of Americans want the WORLD TO END! Why? To bring JESUS down to earth for the LAST JUDGEMENT. I am tempted to say, "God help us". But I think uh, we need somebody to help us FROM God!! Ahhhhhh!!!
• I hope this thread doesn't devolve so far that The 'Bashi has to delete it. I think it's a nice test of monkey civility that we've passed pretty well. Look, it basically started as a troll, and here we've got 90% civil discourse.
  and, I'm trying to put this gently, but, Warrior, how much better do you feel now? How many people have you converted to your point of view, IRL or online, by bitching? I'm a queer liberal, surprised, disappointed, apprehensive, and sad that America has made the decision that it has. It makes me want to scream and weep. Maybe I'll find a place to do just that if a good workout isn't enough to relieve some of the raw tension. If I feel really brave, I'll engage someone who disagrees with me in an honest discussion in the effort to come to some understanding. I understand that people have different ways of dealing with stress and disappointment, but setting up an echo chamber to shout in seems unproductive.
  lastly, when making a remark that might be construed as self-righteous like "wouldn't be the first time I'm silenced, wouldn't be the last one", try reading it out loud in the voice of comic book guy to see if it still sounds good. I'm saying this with love, because I like your comments.
• Bush for another term?--NOT. GOOD. People, don't you realize that we need more rational Bush supporters like Fes? They may be our only salvation in the next four years. It's the frothing-at-the-mouth rabid knee-jerkers that scare me. Excuse me, I think I need to go buy a gun and some duct tape. Dunno exactally what for, but I'm sure they'll come in handy.
• I understand that people have different ways of dealing with stress and disappointment, but setting up an echo chamber to shout in seems unproductive. My god, that's perfect.
• It's the frothing-at-the-mouth rabid knee-jerkers that scare me. Excuse me, I think I need to go buy a gun and some duct tape. I think the duct tape will come in handy for the knee-jerkers.
• Frankly... I must admit that most people I know (and myself as of this morning, I must admit) are overreacting. It's comforting to hear someone mention "You're pissed about this? Now you know how I felt when Nixon was re-elected." And, in the grand scheme of things, I truly believe that Bush has a religious-leaning, slightly ignorant, but well intended plan for this country. Will the streets be awash with the blood of the innocent? Maybe in Iraq, but doubtfully here. Will our civil liberties be infringed upon? Yes, but I think we'll all get used to it, as I doubt it will reach Orwellian heights. Perhaps not the best analogy, but after all, as a smoker, I was incensed at the omission of cigarettes in bars, and I felt my liberty was being infringed upon, but I adapted. I think that a lot of my feelings of sadness and depression aren't based upon the nonsensical thoughts that one man will destroy this country in the next four years, but rather based upon the fact that my faith in my fellow Americans has faltered. It's just hard when the facts are plainly laid out, and people blinded by their faith in the lord ignore them, and go with god.
  
  Vaya con Dios, indeed.
  
  
• Perhaps not the best analogy, but after all, as a smoker, I was incensed at the omission of cigarettes in bars, and I felt my liberty was being infringed upon, but I adapted. Perhaps not the best analogy. Sorry, but getting interrogated and sometimes beaten with the US by US authorities for unproven sedition and having to step outside for a smoke are not even remotely on the same planet.
• with=within
• Spectrusery: The weird part about it is that I've come out hard, with, given any other circustances would be trolling, but...... It's the truth. See, that's weird. Alex: Their simple minds won't get it. Stick with sounds bites. Pro-torture. Bigot. Shawnj: I think the duct tape will come in handy for the knee-jerkers. That was really creepy. I mean really really creepy.
• "It's the truth", "sound bites": agreed, with reservations.
  I thought this election might restore my faith in the American people by proving that the majority won't be won by phony PR, but I was wrong. Republicans have sinned immensely by using fear and hate to motivate voters, but I refuse to believe that's all that won this election.
  I have a new idea: Bush won because he convinced enough people that his beliefs are theirs, and their beliefs are his. It's a tapestry of falsehood, truth, error and mainly oversimplification, but it's a strategy that worked. I can't stand W because I think that he has misrepresented to Americans their own beliefs, so that some have become convinced that they've always believed what he wants us to. (Come to think of it that's got to be a basic political strategy, if I was better educated in poli sci I bet I could quote some relevant passage from Machiavelli or whatever. Anyway it really gets under my skin)
  Really, the point I started trying to make was that polarization is part of the whole good-versus-evil, us-against-them package of crap. Wouldn't it be nice if there was some other way? If this election has shown me anything it's that a giant party trying to simultaneoulsly mobilize its radicals and moderates is not just risky but perhaps impossible without resorting to dirty politics. What I'd really like to see is a new third party, say the Centrist party, become viable in the next three years in the U.S. but that's not the way things work I guess.
• p.s. count me in the THANK YOU FES, column: I haven't had a chance to form a deep opinion on fes but I like folks who can stir things up and make me think without being belligerent.
• Americans keep telling us in the rest of the word that their democracy is best - it doesn't force everyone to vote, so it's representative of the will of the people and so on. Now, if this is so, you ought to realise that your fellow countrypeople voted the way they wanted to! 54% of the voting public voted Bush. Over 50 million people as I understand it. And those 50 million people, by the laws of statistics and analysis, are just as intelligent, and educated, and honest, and everything else as you are! This is the realisation we had to come to in Australia when John Howard got a 4th term as PM. A representative democracy represents a country's political will. There's nothing to cling to here. This election wasn't stolen. Bush has a majority, and a mandate. Nixon got his second term, too. I don't think Bush will fall so spectacularly, but America survived - just as crazy-gun-nut-take-over-the-world as before. I don't like Bush. I don't like America's 'Manifest Destiny' or the constant belief there's nowhere better than the US of A. (there is somewhere better. Brunswick, Victoria, Australia!) But I trust enough Americans to fight for their rights at home. Good luck. and anyone who wants to emigrate, just come on over. we'll sort you out
• Yeah Alex, but that only affects people of Arab descent. Not my problem. Smoking crosses race and religion.
• Your stupid electoral system is part of the problem. There is little or no incentive to start another political party (or parties) that could take votes away from both the duopoly you have now. Sure, you may not be able to get away from this, but what you've got now sure isn't any help. {Though maybe you shouldn't take advice from someone who doesn't hold any faith in representative democracy, and who doesn't see too much difference between the candidates on many issues.} Fes sounds like an actual liberal - laissez faire economically, minimal government in both economic and social terms (you people have an stranger definition of conservative than used here), he certainly doesn't sound like W, or that he would be screaming 'four more years' at the television. When I see that kind of shit it scares me. I don't see how anyone can have that kind of excitement about a politician, but then people who know me would not be surprised by that.
• Brunswick, Victoria Hey, Brunnaswick! Noice!
• Wolof: nah, relaksh, awright? wot kynna wog are youse?
• If I think about Brunswick Road, I'm a hungry one.
• maaaaaaate I vote kebabs next time you're in town!
• Kewl, although something Turkish would be good too. Why aren't there any Turks in SA?
• There is an honourary Turkish Consulate here and at least two ethnic Turkish schools. Do some research ya slack bastard!
• So where can I get hot pide?
• See, that's why Melbourne is teh AW3S0M3!!!!!!11 Sydney Road, Sydney Road, Sydney Road Sydney Road, Sydney Road, Sydney Roooo-oooad!
• oooh... hang on... wasn't this an Americafilter thread?
• And the winner is... Kenya!
• No no no! Venezuela!

  We are dancing the tango. When you are dancing the tango and your toe is stepped on, hurting your toe, you complain. If it is stepped on harder, you complain again. There's a whole game, but we are prepared to continue dancing the tango.

  I love it! Monkeyfilter: We are prepared to continue dancing the tango.
• We are also prepared to disrupt nasty bloodletting for some nice hot bread.
• Wolof: you need pide that much? bloodletting is fun!
• OK, I'll have blood on mine.
• Jesus... a thread that started as a call for conservative's heads has turned into a fucking Men at Work video. Only on Monkeyfilter. *smiles, gives wolof and prismatic7 a Vegemite sandwich... whatever the fuck that is.*
• blaaaargh! *plah! plah!* Aussie-ist! It's not all Men at Work! Anyway - i reckon this was more like the mentals than anything (ha! i kill me!)
• It's a mistake!
• Don't you cringe that all they know us for is *that* song? I can't even escape it by saying I wasn't born here, because he's an immigrant just like me!
• Colin Hay is evil.
• i did hear pandit g (dj for asian dub foundation) play a tremendous nu-skool breaks version of it when adf first came out a couple of years back. it can't be all bad...
• Wow...I never thought that this thread would grow this big. Well, I'd like to tell the Monkeys of the world that I've been enlightened by all your comments. *thank you* It's really interesting to see that this community is so willing to engage in pro and con behaviour with such passion. At the end of the day, i think, that threads like this one serve the purpose of showing everyone both sides, or at least enough information to rationally make decisions, like I have. A quick look at my record, will show you that I'm not one to actually create discomfort on purpose...however, discomfort is a part of what makes us a community that transcends the "general opinion" realm to the "personal opinions" realm (much like "Curious Monkey") and in cases like this, it was of particular importance for me to know that I wasn't alone. To all the monkeys that feel insulted or berated or alienated or angry, all I have to say is I'm sorry...it wasn't my intent to burn you. But I'll continue to do it if I feel it necessary. (that's of course, if tracicle doesn't delete my sorry ass) Monkeys: Hawthornewingo, Alex Reynolds, MCT, Wendell, Freen, etc...you all kick ass. oh, and Fes, this isn't personal. I happen to like a lot of the comments you make.
• Likewise! Be assured that I did not take your comments personally. Vigorous defense of one's philosophical position is laudable, not insulting. And while I appreciate and am gratified and flattered by the many of you who came to my defense, please also be similarly assured that I neither expected nor sought it. It is a tribute, as Warrior points out, to the equanimity of this community, and one that makes me both pleased and proud that you all, despite the fact that I hold political and philosophical opinions that are opposed to a great many of you, yet number me amongst your peers. For that, I would, and do, echo Warrior's thanks.
• Okay, group hug, everybody!
• *surreptitiously pinches MCT's ass during group hug*
• Jeebus y'all are bringing tears to my eyes. I was scared of this thread, but the Monkeys made it good. Thanks for the interesting, heartfelt discussion.
• YAY!!!!
• Hug! Hug! Hug! Hug! *bounces in to give every monkey a hug, bounces off to bed*
• This thread is both deleted and not-deleted. Just for your information.
• There tracicle goes, flip-flopping again.
• *eats a waffle*