October 26, 2004

• -and then throw up on our wedding night because of the caustic mixture of nerves, exhaustion, anxiety and sexual frustration.
• This sort of thing just freaks me right out. "It's your right, children, to decide to do exactly what we tell you to do."
• You know, studies have shown that kids who participate in these virginity pledges are far less likely to use birth control and/or engage in safe sex when they do eventually have it. And um yeah, not many of them actually make it to their wedding night.
• Is this related to the Vagina Institute in any way?
• Honestly, all I see on MoFi these days is "no more bush, no more dick". Morans.
• There's better downloads at virginityblows.com
• The funniest thing in the world to me is when middle-aged white guys come up with "hip" ideas for the youngsters. Clearly it could only be better if the site were called \/1r61|\|17ee R00lz!!!111!!1! ...perversions we won't allow... This reminded me of an old Sinatra quote about people who don't drink: When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day.
• This all must just be some sales gimmick from Sir Richard Branson, right? Please say it is so.
• Clearly it could only be better if the site were called \/1r61|\|17ee R00lz!!!111!!1! But the 1337-speaking sort seems to have no problem holding onto theirs...
• I can't imagine the target audience taking this to heart, fortunately. But I hope they also realise that not having sex does not breach your fundamental human rights (trust me on this, I researched it extensively as a teenager), and that it might even be a good idea for a couple of years.
• i love that the folks who keep telling us how immoral our society have become are often the ones who are the cause of the problem. like, say, thrice-divorced congresspersons trying to "protect the sanctity of marriage" by saying homosexuals can't do it. or people who push abstinence hard, then are later exposed to be philandering asses who've left their bastard children scattered all about the country. not any specific examples here right off the top of my head, but... anyway, abstinence. whoo yeah that's the way to stop teens from having sex. tell them not to do it! because your little brain can totally overcome the BILLIONS OF YEARS OF EVOLUTION that drive us to (try to) reproduce. that's the only biological function of any living thing, reproduction. that's why it feels good to try it. 'specially when you consider that teens have all the requisite hardware to copulate, but their software isn't in order: the teenage brain is getting rewired, and the connections that allow adults to make (what we consider to be) rational mature decisions just do not exist. teens are nutty because their brains do not yet work correctly. so how do we expect them to make mature decisions? of course, if you ignore biology, it becomes easy to say pre-marital sex is immoral and bad and dirty and icky and gross. so we get a nation full of teenagers who do it anyway (mom said not to, i'll show her!), who do it wrong (they said in school condoms don't help, so i won't wear one!), and who get all kinds of friggin' hangups about it. (like the anti-smoking ads... hey, this is bad for you, so don't do it - until you're 18 of course, then light up, muthafucka!)
• besides, pushing abstinence-only doesn't work. nearly half of all high school kids are porking these days, and teachers are not allowed to even so much as answer a question about non-abstinence methods - even though a poll showed that over 80% of low-income parents of all ethnicities want to have comprehensive prevention methods discussed in school. nice. teens in the US who are doing the dirty without being informed properly about protection methods are one of the fastest growing groups of HIV positives in the US. they're actually telling kids that condoms will not protect them against HIV - so they aren't using them. it's fuckin' amazing. [source] sure, the teen pregnancy rate is lower than it used to be, but the drop has nothing to do with abstinence-only education. i've got no recent data for the last few years, but the trend for lower teen pregnancy rates was going on long before we jumped to an anti-birth control stance in the public schools. [source] in the official lies about sex that i've seen, they always include a little star next to the condom and pill failure rates: "* Failure rate for this method of birth control includes those who did not use properly or forgot to use." so why then, for abstinence, do they not include those who fail to abstain? teen pregnancy was holding steady at 20% through the 1990s, [source] and 80% of sexually active teens are using birth control (17% pill, 63% condom according to the stats [source 1], [source 2]). so how effective is abstinence? you do the math. the pew research foundation notes that no study to date has shown an abstinence-only program delay the age of first intercourse. sex ed including accurate birth control methods have significantly delayed age of first sexual encounter as well as increasing the percentage who have safe sex. [source] here's an informal poll: how many of you are the result of a failed abstinence? i'm betting 100% of your parents failed to abstain...
• In English, I hear the proper term is celibacy. Virginity and Abstinence are religiously loaded words. I mean, yeah, The Jesus probably did it that way, too. But there are other, perfectly good reasons not to have sex with other people.
• i'm betting 100% of your parents failed to abstain... HA! Only 50% of MY parents failed to wait a minute forget I said anything.
• Sex is immoral, sick, perverted and depraved...and it should only be shared with someone you love. Why are kids so confused about that?
• I doubt that 'virginity' and 'abstinence' are religious terms. 'Celibacy' seems more religious to me, given how priests in many religions are expected to be celibate. Also, the three words are not interchangable.
• 'specially when you consider that teens have all the requisite hardware to copulate, but their software isn't in order. Their software isn't in order according to who, exactly? Bill Gates? George Bush? England and America? Your mother and father? The laws and norms of your country? These are all correct, of course... 16-year-old mothers are only unacceptable if you live in a society that raises 16 year olds to be like children for another two years 'till fucking becomes "legal". Most of the world doesn't and can't afford to keep this standard. And besides, fucking is fun and it feels good in a way that day-to-day life in Africa generally doesn't. Can you blame them for taking intimate joy where they can? At 16 (or earlier) you are a biological adult and can take on adult responsibilities and important and sustaining roles in your community. We are physically ready to reproduce in our early teens and so we will no matter what anybody says. The ultimate and most powerful human law is the one that says: YOU MUST FUCK and God made it fun to boot (bless Him!). There is no argument against that urge but for the foolishness of all the churches (including this East-Texas bunch). When the human body is ready to fuck it will go looking for a lay. Make no mistake... And give away condoms, please, Mr. Bush.
• Failure rate for this method of birth control includes those who did not use properly or forgot to use." so why then, for abstinence, do they not include those who fail to abstain? Last time I checked, they weren't handing out abstinence pills in health class. I kid, I kid! Forgetting lame campaigns like this for a moment and just going with pure speculation, how is it we still have uninformed teenagers? Honestly, how do kids these days not know about condoms, birth control pills, or other methods to prevent pregnancy? I mean, if they're aware that sex is available to them, how are they not aware that sex sometimes creates unintended results? I'm genuinely curious. 'specially when you consider that teens have all the requisite hardware to copulate, but their software isn't in order: the teenage brain is getting rewired, and the connections that allow adults to make (what we consider to be) rational mature decisions just do not exist. teens are nutty because their brains do not yet work correctly. so how do we expect them to make mature decisions? I call bull on this. No, teens are not the most mature. But they're not fargin' idiots, either. And teenagers DO have to make rational decisions WHILE they're teenagers, and often do so. I was a teenager, and I'd like to think that my decision to remain celibate was a combination of my own personal choice, my faith, and my parents good upbringing. Was I a brainless, nutty teenager? Not that I'm aware of, and I resent the implication that most teens are deficient in the "rational decision making" department. /off my high horse
• *cuddles CLF*.
• (Incidentally, why would you want to marry someone before you discover whether you're compatible in bed. That way lies unahppiness and infidelity...)
• They are clearly not virgins on account of their site design is thoroughly and epicly fucked. I mean really, what god would allow a Flash interface and popping up the main body of the site in a dickweed little window?
• whether you're compatible in bed Chances are, unless you are way into overclocking, that your pins are compatible with the socket on her motherboard.
• Er Fuyugare...size DOES matter u know...!! I don't think i'd want to wait to find out on my wedding night that my hubby's noodle doesnt reach my g-spot!
• f8x- It's not just teenagers who are uninformed about birth control, it's adults, too. Contrary to our little corner of the cyber universe, the majority of people in our nation do not feel comfortable talking openly and honestly about sex. So much depends on the cultural and religious norms of your upbringing. Lots of myths and misinformation abound. True story: I went out with a guy who was a fact checker for the NY Times. College educated. He was also raised in Mexico in a staunchly Catholic family. When I mentioned that I had lived with my ex-bf, he was suprised. "And you don't have any kids?" When I told him no, he asked "Didn't you have relations with him?". When I figured out he meant sex, I was a little dumbfounded. I told him I was on the Pill. And then I could tell that there was a moment of cognitive dissonance for him. I think he understood intellectually about birth control, but it was so far from the norms that he was raised with that it never crossed his mind as an option. Needless to say, that was our only date.
• quidnunc = funny.
• Virginity does not rule at all.
• Virginity has the connotation of "unbroken hymen". If I partake in Oral sex, am I still a virgin? Abstinence connotes abstaining from ALL sex, including killing kitties. I have a problem with that: I think we should help God kill kitties as much as we want. Celibacy, on the other hand, just means you avoid intercourse. Yeah, priests are supposed to be Celibate. And to abstain. I don't think this is very realistic.
• Virginity does not rule at all. I thought it was a clever pun, myself. Stupid and unrealistic, but clever. Thus the best of the web!
• The opposite of this dumb site is Scarleteen. They mostly nailed the celibacy/abstinence thing, although I find their discourse on the V-word a little too.. political for my taste.
• (I wish I had found this site before I started my partnered sex life. My first girlfriend and I eventually got good at it, but it would have reduced some of the early suckage)
• (Incidentally, why would you want to marry someone before you discover whether you're compatible in bed. That way lies unahppiness and infidelity...) On the other hand it allows for a safe, disease and unwanted pregnancy free way of exploring your own sexual likes and dislikes with someone you love. Good healthy marriages won't fail because your partner is lousy in bed they will fail because the two individuals lack the ability to address these issues and figure out a way to overcome them.
• What these kids really need is the Extreme Teen Bible. I'd link to the old thread where it was posted, but you see, right now it's in a holding pattern above the field, having been waved off by the ground crew until such time as the Jell-o can be cleared from the runway.
• No offence, JG. I think it was a good post, but I also think that virginity (the thing in the world, not as it exists in this article) is not really the bee's knees.
• Caution Live Frogs, you speak wisdom. This has been an on-going issue and touchy subjuect within my family since I was a teenager. My father and mother, gave me little information about sex, birth control, or STDs. I am lucky in the sense I was a level headed teen. I had urges, biological in nature. I went seeking the information I needed to make an informed decision. I found what I needed, but the legal system was hindering me. I wasn't allowed to obtain birth control, in the form of the pill, which was in my opinion the most effective type, without my parents consent, due to the fact I was under age. That wasn't an option. Well, that sucked, but it didn't stop me from becoming sexually active. I was depending on the bf's use of condoms. That made me extremely nervous. So I did what I had to do, a desperate move on my part, and dishonest to some. I forged my mothers signature to a note granting the physician to give me the pill. He never checked, he just gave the the pill. I was happy and all was well, until my mother found my pills a year later and flushed them. Then she called the physician and had my prescription stopped. I was pregnant in 6 months. The ranting and raving my mother did, when she found out caused a rift between us for years. But I will not waver I was well aware of what I was about and all would have been well if only she would have left it be. I taught my children differently, which my parents thought I was wrong for it. They knew all aspects of what sex is, what STDs are, the importance of trust, how to protect themselves and others. And it wasn't only sex I taught them about, it was drugs, violence, how to love . We have very close relationships and my kids never had any fear about discussing all the difficult issues life throws at us. When a kid reaches the age of 16, if brought up from the get go to be adult by 16 in most issues, I believe teens can and do make good decisions. But you have to give them all the information, not just bits and pieces. Sorry for being long-winded.
• No problem, clockzero. I missed my own pun!
• Bratcat, you speak the truth about teens. You can't tell them not to start, and you certainly can't tell them to stop, once they have started. It is foolish to pretend otherwise. Of course, two kids can have a lot of fun, and still assert that she is still a virgin. He would be too.
• @ f8xmulder: I agree with you, to a large extent. But after spending 6 years teaching high school it became obvious that a lot of kids (across the spectra of intelligence, academic ability, religious upbringing and so on) don't make good decisions, and that many of those decisions spring from the nature of adolescence. My observations are admittedly informal, but it seems to me that not everyone is as well-equipped to make healthy life choices at that age as you fortunately were. This isn't a slam against teens, and there seems to be some research to back it up. Here's a decent synopsis of "adolescent egocentrism" and how certain characteristics of adolescent development can lead to faulty decision making.
• yeah, i can make a comment that isn't goofy when i want to. what about it? /shifty gaze
• squeek: You'll note I spoke of compatibility, not quality. People can improve with practise, but tastes about sex differ, and can differ dramatically. Once you're married it's a bit late to discover one of you loathes BDSM and the other hankers after it constantly. And "unwanted pregnancy free"? Do you actually understand anything about human reproduction, marriage, and child-rearing, or are you handing out sterilisation with marriage?
• (All of this, of course, presupposes there's something wrong with enjoying sexual pleasure for its own sake, a worldview I onsider a pretty large crock of shit, myself...)
• rodgerd: "Once you're married it's a bit late to discover one of you loathes BDSM and the other hankers after it constantly." If you haven
• Squeak, that is great that you and your wife showed each other your respect for one another in that way. If that is what works for you, but not everyone views premarital sex as disrespectful or sinful. I feel that if everyone would respect the fact that no one has the same life view about sex, be it premarital, marital, homosexual, or bi-sexual and agree not to try to push ones views onto another, the world would be a lot better place.
• Heck, in my culture it is a requirement and an honour to have passionate monkey-sex on the first date. Too bad no one respects my culture enough to answer my personal ads. It's really racist, you know?

• Quite familiar with Human Anatomy and Physiology, 20 month old son, married five years, not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but qualified enough to comment.

  It doesn't show through in your assertion that only having sex inside a marriage will be "unwanted pregnancy free" sex? As for the idea that simple discussion will allow you to work out what you're interested in sexually, well: it's an interesting notion. It may even work for some people. And what bratcat said.
• For me it's not so much about sexual orientation or weather or not you can keep your dick in your pants or your legs closed, as it is taking responsibility for your actions. Saying that it's a natural urge and using that as an excuse for a choice to have sex at any age is a Cop-Out, it says hey I made a choice and the consequences aren't what I was expecting so lets place blame elsewhere to feel better about the whole thing. I've met single moms who were pregnant at 16 and managed to raise healthy happy children and ultra-conservative religious folk with kids so screwed up it would make you cry so who's got the best way of doing things?
• True rodgerd, there are lots of unwanted or unexpected pregnancies within marriages but I like to think that at least there is some sort of established support system already in place in these cases. It sure makes things easier for everyone involved.
• Our bodies are treasures; we won’t give ‘em up without a fight. Dammit, so true! I had sex last Thursday and I'm still trying to get my body back.
• I won't give it up without a fight!
• I think it's great that a bunch of god-bothering teenagers are willing to forego sex. If we can persuade them that it's the desire of their god that they abstain forever, perhaps we can see these weirdos disappear from the population relatively quickly. Sex is great fun. When our kids started approaching puberty, we sat down with them and went over pretty much everything (because Missouri public schools sure weren't addressing the issues). We also reinforced this initial talk with later ones, and since our kids like and trust us, they asked us questions at other times, too. Hoping, wishing and praying are worth exactly zero when it comes to rape, unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases. Knowing simple biological facts, being street smart and using multiple forms of contraception save lives and allow lives to be lived without burdens, emotional, financial or other. I think we did pretty well, with our hetero- kids not being involved in pregnancies until they chose the time, our homo- child is comfortable with his sexuality, and none of them ever contracted a disease. If people actually bothered to parent in an involved manner and believed their kids are a high priority, they'd know how to discuss so-called 'touchy' subjects like fucking, and not expect that their peers or a school system (likely feeding them misinformation) will do their jobs.
• Education is the answer. Period.
• *Saying that it's a natural urge and using that as an excuse for a choice to have sex at any age is a Cop-Out, it says hey I made a choice and the consequences aren't what I was expecting so lets place blame elsewhere to feel better about the whole thing.* Squeak, I think you are reading too much into what I had to say. If you are of the religious sort, or if waiting until marriage is yor belief system then waiting is ok by me. My story was to make a point about being realistic, and realizing that at 16, the body is more than ready to be active in that sense. Education and being open with your kids will go a long way to prevent teen pregnancy and the spread of STD's My experience was unfortunate, but manageable and not a cop-out. I knew what to do to protect myself, my parents didn't agree, and I do lay some of the blame at my mother's feet. If she had had enough sense to realize, once a person becomes sexually active, they won't stop, and let me be, I wouldn't have had a kid at 17. It is unrealistic to think abstinence is the only right way to deal with teen sexual activity. I am not the religious sort, who thinks premarital sex is bad or a sin. I do believe that if you are in a committed relationship, married or not, you should be faithful to your partner.
• /me smacks Jerry Garcia "c'mon, put 'em up! put 'em up!"
• er, with love, by the way, Mr. Garcia, sir...
• That is my point exactly bratcat, there are people who have never been informed of the consequences of their decisions, sometimes because parents are two afraid to talk to them or too blinded by their own religion or they are given the wrong information by friends. What I was trying to say was that the excuse of it was a natural urge is too often used to justify a lack of information and then becomes a cop-out.
• And I can prove it, though abstinence seems the last thing in mind here.
• I think I've figured it out - what if this whole abstinence thing was actually dreamt up by NERDS who couldn't find someone to have sex with in highschool (or after), and want to make everyone else suffer like they did? yes, I do have Spock ears.