October 15, 2004

Punk'd! The birthplace of punk, like the early rock and roll that it directly referenced, was in rebellion. The danger of black music, or the embrace of violence and nihilism, played a large part in both the sound and the attitude. Most sub-cultures are like this, defining themselves in opposition to the status quo. So why then are there conservative punks?

Rightgoth.com says that the conservative message is in line with Goth culture because it values individualism and responsibility. But aren't those values more traditionally associated with liberalism? As I see it, conservatism (and the related reactionism) have a long thread in outsider culture, and are only now coming into the larger subgenres like punk because of a blurring of what those subgenres mean. Certainly, the same fascist thread can be traced from Brownshirts through the Rudeboys and Skins that adopted working-class aesthetic as a means of identity, and violence as a means of expression. These bracer boys were famously courted by the National Front as Bully Boys, playing on their loyalty to the British identity as a means of shoring up right-wing dissent under Thatcher. And there have certainly been inversions of this thread, most notably in Laibach, Slovenia's #1 fake fascists. But are the current group of conservitive punks really punks? And if they are, why have they chosen to back an authoritarian ideological system over a more permissive one? Are liberals failing to get the message out that they encourage individuality, or is rebelling against the acceptence of individuality one of the few avenues left for someone to be pathologically contrarian? Why are Johnny Ramone's and Michael Graves politics celebrated by people calling themselves punk, while they ignore the politics of bands like The Sex Pistols, Buzzcocks, X-Ray Specs, hell, even the rest of the Ramones? It could just be that punk is big enough to embrace everyone. Or it could be that they don't know what punk is all about. What do you guys think? Especially you conservatives on here?

posted by js 19 years ago
  • I know several people who rebelled against their hippie parents and whose political philosophy has evolved from anarchist --> libertarian --> republican.
  • why have they chosen to back an authoritarian ideological system over a more permissive one? This question is easy. It doesn't matter what political ideology the message comes from, as long as the message is "FUCK YOU!!!"
  • Punk is not a dress code, it's values.
  • Yeah, but what values?
  • To be obvious- because punk's dead. Everything you see in the mainstream calling itself punk isn't remotely subversive, and is often suspiciously apolitical. Punk has become a style one can adopt if one wants to seem rebellious, a good way to make your righteous anger seem edgy and relevant, or make something innocuous seem dangerous. But it's hardly more subversive than commercials reassuring you what an independent individual you are by buying a particular product. The notion of a conservative punk is only possible because punk has been absorbed into the mainstream, de-fanged, and reduced to a style and an attitude rather than a set of values. (Not to say there aren't "old-fashioned" or "real" punks out there, but obviously they're not being represented in mainstream culture.)
  • Yeah, but what values? The value of saying "FUCK YOU!!!" to power. I really think it boils down to that. You don't like your place in life, you feel powerless to make real change (because you probably are), and you react with an ideological scream. And of course that scream can have a rightist tone to it. Why can't it? It's not really news that some "punk" groups assume fascist ideologies, is it? Or am I getting old or something? [On preview: I believe what TayBridgeDisaster says is true in terms of punk music and the punk movement; i.e. that punk died in 1981. But I believe that that's kind of avoiding the question, which is Why are some people who are reacting to our conservative corporate conformist society via lifestyle, ideology, appearance, and/or music sometimes able to react in a rightist manner? Let's call 'em "punks."]
  • Well, the first problem is that your definition of conservative is skewed. True conservatism (The current administration is -not- conservative) is a small, efficient government that stays out of a persons life as much as possible while governing the people. That is why you find some "Punks" (I still agree that Punk is dead, more or less) leaning towards the right, because the right is a small government and that is as close to anarchy as they are going to get.
  • The only punk I ever liked was Viv from the Young Ones. Jus sayin'...
  • For me, punk was (and is) about do-it-yourself, it has nothing whatsoever to do with fashion. If the things you see or hear don't move you, then create something that does. Ignore all naysayers. Is this an overly broad definition of punk? I don't know. It works for me. Generally speaking, conservatives make lousy artists: most are dull, uncreative, and frozen. They can make crummy knock-offs, but they rarely think of anything new. But that's just my opinion...
  • Rebellion is a core value in punk culture, and that's why you see conservative punks. I'm voting for John Kerry in this election, but when I watched the final debate on a TV at work with all of the LA Democrats giving him a free pass on his every answer, even when he said something they had just minutes ago heckled Bush for saying, the punk in me wanted to throw their hypocrisy in their faces. When the anti-war protests started, I was so fucking pissed at all of the "I'll protest anything" bandwagoneers that I wanted to make a big sign that said "bongos are not an instrument of protest" and crash the party. The idea of protesting protesters gives me punk goosebumps. Punk, at its best, is about making people rethink what they thought they knew. From music, to fasion ("A safety pin is fashionable? Why the hell am I spending money on jewelry when I can get it basically free?") to politics, to religion, to punk itself. Punk is full of political zombies stumbling around thinking that Jello Biafra should be president, and that would make the world a utopia. Okay, I love Jello as much as the next guy, and the Kennedys definitely helped to shape my worldview and open my eyes to politics and social issues, but it's not fucking dogma. Question everything, second-guess everybody, and never accept anybody's authority. If punk can be boiled down to anything, it's a movement against dogma. When left-liberalism becomes the dogma, punks have the inclination -- and one might even say the responsibility -- to rebel against it. If that doesn't seem intuitive, then you're missing the point of punk. Standing on stage and preaching to the choir is not punk rock. Every show, every stage, every forum of any kind, is your opportunity to get in someone's face and make them think about something. Maybe "Nanny-State Punks Fuck Off" isn't as catchy as the original, but you get the idea. The thing that irks me is that conservative punks aren't starting their own anti-liberal movement, they're just accepting an existing mainstream ideology. That's a pretty fucking cheap way to do it, if you ask me. Chickenshit conformists, just like their parents.
  • "Chickenshit Conformist" Punk's not dead It just deserves to die When it becomes another stale cartoon A close-minded, self-centered social club Ideas don't matter, it's who you know If the music's gotten boring It's because of the people Who want everyone to sound the same Who drive bright people out Of our so-called scene 'Til all that's left Is just a meaningless fad Hardcore formulas are dogshit Change and caring are what's real Is this a state of mind Or just another label The joy and hope of an alternative Have become its own cliche A hairstyle's not a lifestyle Imagine Sid Vicious at 35 Who needs a scene Scared to love and to feel Judging everythng By loud fast rules appeal Who played last night? "I don't know, I forgot. But diving off the stage Was a lot of fun." So eager to please Peer pressure decrees So eager to please Peer pressure decrees Make the same old mistakes Again and again, Chickenshit conformist Like your parents What's ripped us apart even more than drugs Are the thieves and the goddamn liars Flipping people off when they share their stuff When someone falls are there any friends? Harder core than thou for a year or two Then it's time to get a real job Others stay home, it's no fun to go out When the gigs are wrecked by gangs and thugs When the thugs form bands, look who gets record deals From New York metal labels looking to scam Who sign the most racist queerbashing bands they can find To make a buck revving kids up for war Walk tall, act small Only as tough as gang approval Unity is bullshit When it's under someone's fat boot Where's the common cause Too many factions Safely sulk in their shells Agree with us on everything Or we won't help with anythng That kind of attitude Just makes a split grow wider Guess who's laughing while the world explodes When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ouselves That farty old rock and roll attitude's back "It's competition, man, we wanna break big." Who needs friends when the money's good That's right, the '70s are back. Cock-rock metal's like a bad laxative It just don't move me, ya know? The music's OK when there's more ideas than solos Do we rally need the attitude too? Shedding thin skin too quickly As a fan it disappoints me Same old stupid sexist lyrics Or is Satan all you can think of? Crossover is just another word For lack of ideas Maybe what we need Are more trolls under the bridge Will the metalheads finally learn something- Or will the punks throw away their education? No one's ever the best Once they believe their own press "Maturing" don't mean rehashing Mistakes of the past The more things change The more they stay the same We can't grow When we won't criticize ourselves The '60s weren't all failure It's the '70s that stunk As the clock ticks we dig the same hole Music scenes ain't real life They won't get rid of the bomb Won't eliminate rape Or bring down the banks Any kind of real change Takes more time and work Than changing channels on a TV set
  • There is so much real punk out there. Next week I'm going to see the Subhumans even!
  • What kind of clothing does the Conservative Punk wear? Where can I get my Mommy and Daddy to buy these clothes for me this semester?
  • For the new millenium, I like Unixpunx.
  • Isn't this 21st century punk stuff just the boring revivalism of people too young to have experienced it the first time? To me it's no different than dressing up in 40's clothes and dancing to a swing band or passing the bong while listening to a neo-hippie jam band. It's all just boring revivalism. Can't people think up new stuff anymore?
  • I'm sick of people saying punk is dead. Punk isn't just that narrow slice of 70's and 80's fashion. Punk isn't static. As with anything else, it adapts to the times. The kids walking around the mall with giant mohawks and all of the archetypal studded leather aren't very representative of the punk movement today. They're wearing costumes. If anyone says punk died in the 80's, I say fuck you, we weren't just playing Weekend at Bernie's in the 90's, and I'm sure as fuck not going to tell the kids starting bands, record labels and zines in this decade that they're playing with a corpse, either.
  • As far as the conservatism goes, what surprised me more than the small government stuff (which I can support ideologically, even though I tend to think social programs are a good practical investment) was that they're supporting traditional values like patriotism, anti-choice for women, anti-minority rights, pro-defense, and pro-authority views. I know there's still real punk out there, even on a small level (like our town has a Punk Week that's basically a DIY festival). But it seemed to me that a lot of the conservative punks didn't know their history, didn't know why punk got started, didn't understand the political side to their actions. I dunno. Maybe it's because I'm about two-thirds through Lipstick Traces, but conservative punks seemed more like kids who just wanted to piss off their parents than anything else.
  • pug's got it: DIY isn't just for UK homeowners DO IT YOURSELF the fashion was all malcolm's pr idea and it was great we could identify each other on sight we could exist as a form of protest punk social consciousness vs. punk nihilism nihilism is for the young. if you wanted to join a mob there is always a mob to join that will have you a lot of little hard core skate punks i know joined the military at least for a time. they were straight edge. the punkiest punks i knew: doctors, lawyers, activists, the latter always looking a bit buff and hippy for people who just wanted easy labels and categories. (no one every really trusted henry rollins) punk is on the inside, out as opposed to outside, hope it trickles in/down the pierced up kids i see like the dead and james taylor and that is WRONG punk is another reclaiming of a word like queer or my favorite freak as in a wrinkle in time nihilism is about an end anarchy is transition towards a new order punk never dies you just let it fade inside you don't listen to me i'm just another old punk so punk you, clown
  • This thread is hopeless. Impossible to talk rationally about punk when we can't even define the word. Also: It's important to remember when you're starting to talk seriously about punk and politics that the most iconic punk band was the Sex Pistols, for whom punk was primarily about making money to score dope and getting laid. All in all, a tough topic to have a reasonable discussion about.
  • But I'll amend my earlier thesis: Punk is DIY married to "FUCK YOU!!!" It's got to have the FUCK YOU part, or else it's not punk -- that's got to be part of anybody's definition of the word.
  • don't blame the kids for wanting one of their own to speak for them it's not their fault they haven't got good choices they're young they'll learn or shit on the populous with dave matthews it's not wrong to want to be part of something it's not right to not know who or how not everyone knows their options selective information is the tool of evil and self absorption is the only true evil i see on a regular basis is you care share if you don't i don't care
  • is u is or is u aint ma bebe? maybe baby found somebody new maybe baby lost someone like you
  • And hey, hutta, fuck you, too! (BTW nobody was knocking you, or your beliefs, or your lifestyle.)
  • Also: It's important to remember when you're starting to talk seriously about punk and politics that the most iconic punk band was the Sex Pistols, for whom punk was primarily about making money to score dope and getting laid. Wow. You seriously missed the point of the Pistols and Punk itself, if that's what you think. Or... just by saying that, do you think that makes you punk? Aw fuck. To put it another way, is it like Alanis Morrisette writing a song about shit that isn't even close to being ironic, but calling it "ironic". Is that, in itself, ironic? You know, it probably is. It's just not meaningful. On the other hand... fuck it. That's punk... just fuck it.
  • Hawthorne: See? Punk's not dead. Look at us and our gratuitous fuck-you's. Because this census indicates, and this atlas has related 3 billion humans I haven't irritated. I've got a lot of work to do. Three billion people, that's three billion snotty fuck you's. Fuck you. Fuck all of you. For the record, I didn't take anything personally... And punk's hardly my lifestyle. It's a movement that I'm passionate about, and one I hate to see trivialized (both by those on the outside and those on the inside who embrace it only as a fashion or music trend), but it's not "mine." In a place like America, where our society is so relatively young, subculture is our culture, and it's hard not to be defensive about one's culture.
  • psmealy, you're right, i spoke quickly and stupidly. My bad. And hutta, I hear you. Peace. And fuck you. (Always.)
  • I'll take this to the next thread on it then...