October 06, 2004

• I don't share your optimism, Warrior. The spin has begun already. The war criminals will deal with this as they have dealt with every single one of the damning revealtions: by recourse to the most outrageous Orwellian doublethink. And the Bush-supporting goobercore will lap it up like the revenous, needy little Pavlov's dogs they are.
• ...or "ravenous", even.
• LEAVE FRANCE ALONE!~!
• "The war criminals.." /nods Yes they are. War criminals. I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to repeat that until the meme enters consciousness of the masses. Fucking war criminals, people. One day we'll look back on this period and our kids will say "why the fuck didn't you do anything about this?" and we'll mumble something about trying our best, blink reflexively, and say "It's hard work.. it's hard... it's hard work."
• Just the fact there was intent will be enough to justify the war in Iraq for the neocons.
• Yeah, exactly. Like Bush in the Sawyer interview "So what's the difference?" What's the difference? Ok, fucktard, let me ask you this, which countries aren't you going to invade, you pathetic, warmongering little piece of shit?
• why the fuck didn't you do anything about this? I don't think there's anything we really can do, except vote for Kerry. That's why.
• I was planning on trying I didn't know. I wonder if they'll believe me?
• Aiding the Meme: the war criminals the war criminals the war criminals the war criminals ...will this do any good?... the war criminals..
• The shoe fits
• "What's the difference? Ok, fucktard, let me ask you this, which countries aren't you going to invade, you pathetic, warmongering little piece of shit?" Excellent question.
• I've been referring to Bush, Blair, Straw, Hoon, Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rove, Wolfowitz, Powell et al as war criminals since day one of this mess. At first people just snorted with derision and told me I was being absurd. As time passed and "evidence" crumbled and Abu Ghraib blew up I found that far fewer people take me to task about it. If there were any genuine justice in this world these shameless, murderous, mendacious crooks would be hauled up before an international court and tried along with Saddam. I also dream I can fly, quite often.
• IMO, I don't think Powell really belongs on that list.
• Darshon: you don't? So acting as a war crime enabler by presenting the UN with "evidence" you know to be bogus and/or exaggerated is not a war crime in your opinion? Aiding and abetting doesn't count?
• I support the meme. These assholes are war criminals.
• In Powell's case, he does seem to be evil against his will. Most people I know think he cooperates unwillingly, and then only to remain inside the den of wolves as a voice of reason. He knows that if he's replaced, it'll be by someone as evil as the rest of the gang, and there won't be anyone inside the circle with a shred of humanity. He definitely made an effort to reign those evil fuckers in. Think of Teal'c from Stargate, before he joined SG-1
• So, Mr. K - you mean Powell was "only obeying orders"? That argument always goes down well at war crimes trials.
• Decani, that's not what I mean at all. I'm saying he infiltrated the bad guys, like when a cop goes deep undercover in the mafia. Except instead trying to arrest the mafia (since he's in a position where he can't, yet), he manipulates them so they don't do near as much evil shit as they would do if the cop wasn't around. When the rest of the police force shows up, he not only helps arrest, he has a cubic butt-ton of evidence to help in the prosecution. For example, the UN incedent. Powell presented a weak, pathetic argument, even without it being bogus. He gave a totally unconvincing argument for war, he basically threw the fight. But the media then declared it convincing (since they think their job is to deliver feel-good bullshit), and the UN never took him to task, like they should've. Powell gave the UN, and the world a wonderful opportunity. He said "Look, this is the best we got. Examine it." Had the UN stepped up the plate, they could've knocked it out of the park. Powell's in a position where he can't stop the shitheads, but he can slow them down. If Powell stepped down and resigned, he could neither stop them or slow them down. And he would be replaced by a shithead on the same level of evilness as Bush's cohorts. I'm not saying that he's perfect, or a nice guy, likeable. I'm not even saying that he shares my political views. I'm just saying that he's a non-evil conservative (they do exist) who's forced to go to work with a pack of demons everyday, so he does what he can to slow down their nefarious plans.
• Well Mr. K, that's an entertainingly sci-fi sort of idea but I must confess I'm struggling to suppress laughter when I consider you might actually be serious. This noble, Canute-like figure you portray would be the same Colin Powell responsible for the following quotes, I assume? "We must not shrink from whatever is ahead of us. We must not fail in our duty and our responsibilities. Clearly, Saddam will stop at nothing until something stops him." "Iraq's behavior demonstrates that Saddam Hussein has made no effort to disarm. The facts show that Saddam is concealing his efforts to produce weapons of mass destruction." "We know that a missile brigade outside Baghdad was disbursing rocket launchers & warheads containing biological warfare agents to various locations in western Iraq. Most of the launchers & warheads have been hidden in large groves of palm trees & were to be moved every 1 to 4 weeks to escape detection." "Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons. That is enough agent to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets. Even the low end of 100 tons of agent would enable Saddam to cause mass casualties acro more than 100 square miles of territory." "When our coalition ousted the Taliban, the Zarqawi network helped establish a training center in Iraq. Baghdad has an agent in the most senior levels of the radical organization. In 2000 this agent offered Al Qaida safe haven in the region." "Iraqi officials deny accusations of ties with Al Qaida. These denials are simply not credible." "Iraqi denials of supporting terrorism take the place alongside the other denials of weapons of mass destruction. It is all a web of lies."
• This noble, Canute-like figure you portray Actually, I said the opposite. Read the last paragraph again, I was pretty blunt in saying he's not "noble, Canute-like," another straw man you've made from my statements. The first time, when you put "following orders" argument in my mouth, I thought it was my fault for not being clear. But you've done it again, twice in a row, and I can't help suspect that you're either being deliberately obtuse, or you can't even be bothered to read the words of the guy you're arguing with. Either way, there's not much sense in explaining it a third time. I'll save it for someone who's goal is understanding, instead of someone who's goal is winning.
• Mr. K: I applied a certain amount of inference to words such as: "evil against his will" "he cooperates unwillingly" It didn't seem an unreasonable leap to me to compare someone who knows they are committing evil but who continues to do so unwillingly with those who do so because they are only obeying orders. I understand now that this was not your intent. I am less inclined to retract my "noble, Canute-like comment" because you clearly suggested that Powell was acting out of some sense of honour but with little or no chance of success; that he saw himself as some sort of last-gasp moderating influence on the hawks, viz: "to remain inside the den of wolves as a voice of reason" "there won't be anyone inside the circle with a shred of humanity. He definitely made an effort to reign those evil fuckers in." "he infiltrated the bad guys" And I still say that Powell's words - such as those in the quotes I gave - show that he was repeating the outright lies and the evil just as Bush, Rumsfeld and the rest of the gang were. Maybe he didn't buy into it in his heart - we have no way of knowing that for sure - but he certainly presented himself as if he did. He supported the war crimes where it counted - in the public arena, and he should be judged on that.
• Decani, I have the strong feeling (yes, I know that doesn't fall into your spectrum of 'intelligent thought') that Powell likley thought there was some weight to what was being decided and in time has come to see the error of this administrations and his ways. I think that he is trying to maneuver himself away from the central force without jeopardizing his career, trying to focus on where he can do something good and worthwhile while not outright going against his bosses orders. I didn't vote for Bush and if Powell ever ran for office, I don't think I would vote for him either, but I like him. I think that he has the best intentions and I think he strives not to be hypocrite. In my opinion, he is one of the few people in this administration I feel like I might be able to trust. If your looking for facts supporting my opinion, sorry, I don't have them. I often operate off instinct, even if it is from afar. Frankly, I don't have time to do the kind of research that you have time for. But, you know, if you want to work that hard for the final word, by all means, go for it. It allows me to be more informed and I don't have to do any of the work, so THANKS!!
• Decani, I was going over the top some, but only to illistrate the direction I wanted you to look. I had to bust the wrong idea you were getting from my words. But now that you're looking in the right direction... Maybe he didn't buy into it in his heart - we have no way of knowing that for sure Actually, we most likely do. If how I've been describing is in anyway accurate, he'd not only have compiled evidence against Bushco, but in a way the shows that highlights his attempts at bringing Bushco down. If Bushco are to ever be brought up on charges, he's the man to go to. What would you do in his shoes? Keep in mind that if you step down, or do anything to cause your dismissal, you'll be replaced by someone as warhungry Cheney ever was. If you make the decision to flat out refuse Bushco, Many more innocents will die, and they'll have died just so you could selfishly cover your own ass. If Bushco is ever brought to trial for their war crimes, then it'll eventually come then it'll come out all of them. I'm positive that what comes out about Powell's actions won't be one tenth as bad as any other member of Bushco, including Rice and Tenet. If I'm wrong, well then I'm wrong. Here's my apology in advance, just in case. Disclaimer: Amongst the real-live people I discuss politics with, I attack Powell more than any of them, because I don't think he's done as much as he could've done to save lives. But I do believe he has made an actual effort to do the right thing, however miserably he's failed.
• Sorry, Mr. Knickerbocker, but Decani has your position by the throat. Powell is nothing more than a more appealing shill for the ugly Bush regime, and is therefore as much of a war criminal as the rest of that rotten bunch. That he seems to be 'less evil' than Rove and Cheney and the other criminals is part of the whole package presentation: the idiot-in-chief is folksy but firm, Cheney is the cold-blooded, calculating manipulator, Rice is the tough and spunky double-token, Powell is the friendly shill, Rove is the vampire to kill after dispatching Cheney, and Ashcroft is the stealthy ninja in the night 'protecting' your freedoms (or is he...?). This cast of characters reads as much less believable than the cast of a crappy b-movie (Ocean's Eleven comes to mind), or a long-forgotten episode of Scooby-Doo. When this lot gets the chair, I want front row seats.
• That he seems to be 'less evil' than Rove and Cheney... Well, I do grant that he could be Super Mega +100 Evil, and at the same time seem much 'less evil' than the rest of that pack. I've been comparing him against a horde of demons, so it'd be difficult for him to not shine.
• You said Bush is up for election??? Hell, I thought you said impeachment. *wacks ear