September 24, 2004

• WTF is the point of putting a man in Mars? If I had to guess, I'd say it was some testosterone-fueled idea of conquest rather than something with actual scientific merit. You know, to appeal to the tough guy demographic who think NASA's a bunch of pussies. But I don't really know. I don't see how we can expect to get to Mars at all if we can't use the ISS to do research.
• The ISS itself is a big white elephant whose primary purpose was giving the shuttles something to do. Makes sense that now the shuttles are grounded that this alabatros be left to rot too. I'm all for space exploration but the ISS has been a gigantic waste of money. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
• The benefits of sending men to Mars are more psychological than scientific, granted. However, what that would be is a first step toward the ultimate goal of colonization. Earth, big and tough as it is, is a closed system. Eventually we will exhaust certain of its natural resources, and in the event that some cataclysmic accident were to occur? RIP Mankind. establishing extraterrestrial colonies, while initially costly, is an important stage in the evolution of a technological species. For one, colonization Mars would allow us to access an entire planet's worth of new natural resources; second, it would provide sidestream technological benefits, as new technologies and scientific discoveries are applied. Lastly, it would provide us a stepping stone toward the *colossal* volumes of natural resources likely to be available in the outer planets and asteroid belt. Earth's gravity well is pretty tough, but Mars' is not as much, from what I understand; building and launching rockets fom Mars, rather than earth, would be far cheaper in the long run. As for the ISS, it need not have been the white elephant that it was politicized into. Having a permanent, expanding space station in geosynchronous orbit offers potential far beyond the afterschool special "different cultures working together" foofaraw. The biggest potential benefit, imo, would be the capture and tightbeam of raw solar energy. The creation of solar panels is a nasty job, waste-wise, their size is limited by terrestrial considerations, and their efficacy is limited by our atmosphere. But a space station could manufacture and deploy solar panels capable of capturing raw solar radiation on a monumental scale, which they could tightbeam via microwave back down to any location on earth. Imagine, if you will, nearly unlimited power delivered cleanly and efficiently to any location on earth! It would make the current struggles regarding oil and natural gas superflous. A space station might also manufacture and launch space-faring vesssels that would not need to be constrained by the restrictions of earth's gravity well. Rockets are shaped the way they are for a reason (no, it's NOT that men created them as giant proxy penises to shoot gloriously into the heavens); space-manufactured vessels need no be so constrained, and costs could be much reduced. Add to that the more cost-effective deployment of satellite technology (welcome back, Iridium!), the capacity for much cheaper lunar travel, far more effective GPS and logistical control and oversight (think: air traffic control on a hemispherical scale)... there is much to recommend it. All this is in addition to the beginning of a true era of Space for humanity. Humans are by nature explorers and adventurers. Living and working in orbit is the stairstep to the last true frontier, and it is a mindbogglingly huge one. Expanding the ISS, going to Mars - these are steps toward opening a territory for exploration and colonization that is literally without end. The capacity for reward - culture, economic, psychological - is vast.
• I'm not sure I believe the Mars stuff is serious (alas). Aerospace seems to be in a stagnant period generally at the moment (no more Concorde and nothing to replace it). It's depressing, but this technology probably only really progresses when there's a war on, because then the point of it seems obvious. But actually, stuff that seems pointless in strict cost/benefit terms often turns out to have been worth doing in the end. I believe the first bronze knives were inferior in terms of sharpness and durability to the highly-developed flint technology then available, but crazed early-adopter geeks insisted on using them. The first personal computers, we can admit now, were basically useless, but they were a necessary stepping stone to something better. When digital watches first came in (and I speak as a man who bought a Sinclair Black Watch) they were inferior in all sorts of ways to analogue ones, whereas now... er, alright, scrub that last one. In short, the ISS may not have been great, but it's a shame to give up on the whole space station idea. Perhaps someone could start a rumour that Al Qaeda is developing a space station capability?
• I saw a story on al-Jazeera about al Qaeda developing some sort of space station...? *rubs hands together with ill-concealed glee, waits for fireworks to start*
• Suicide bombers from space? Shit! All this duct tape is no good now!
• Building solar panels on the ISS?! We can't even get up there to fix a leak nevermind getting all the raw materials up there that would be needed to produce huge solar cells. You also would end up with 'a giant frickin lazer beam' ok microwave beam that would fry anything that passed through it. If you wnat clean power the current generation of safe nuclear reactors is definitely the way to go.
• Turkmenbashi is in the space race now. The stated public purpose is to develop better razors for eliminating beards, but who knows what plans are afoot. Said American astronaut Robert L. Crippen, abducted from a Frankfurt hotel and towing an IV drip, "There are no limits to our gratitude to our leader. The Turkmeni people shall prosper."
• We can't even get up there to fix a leak nevermind getting all the raw materials up there that would be needed to produce huge solar cells. Sure we could! We just don't. You also would end up with 'a giant frickin lazer beam' ok microwave beam that would fry anything that passed through it. So what? Alright, let's say (and I have no background in physics [paging cautionliveforgs! cautionlivefrogs to the ISS thread!] so this is all blueskying, but still) that the microwave beam for a large city has to be 100 feet in diameter. If you are *standing* next to a 100 foot microwave beam, I imagine it would seem pretty big and dangerous, but the sky is a big place. It would be pretty easy to create no fly zones encircling the beams with a couple dozen miles of dead air, and route traffic around them. This would be in addition targetting the beams outside of the busier flight paths. If you wnat clean power the current generation of safe nuclear reactors is definitely the way to go. I agree. However, nuclear comes with a lot of Ludd-y baggage, and not everyone uses the current generation of safe reactors. Obviously, microwaved solar is a loooooong way down the road. But the ISS has been up for several years, and we haven't even taken the first steps toward *thinking* about the difficulties in implementation. A real waste, in my opinion, but not one that it's impossible to overcome.
• I agree 100% with the first comment from Fes. Mars is our first real step to a diaspora amongst the stars, and the sooner it happens, the better for all mankind. (Although the flat-earthers may not be too keen)
• Although it would be quite fun to have a booster rocket accidently go off or for a gyro to go haywire resulting in a re-aiming of the beam. Buh bye downtown...
• I wanna fly my love rocket to Uranus.
• I agree with Fes, but I hesitate to say that because my brain only allowed me to read a tiny portion of his commments.
• Quid, you certainly do contribute significantly to any discussion. Uranus comment has all the earmarks of your usual deep consideration for all aspects of the topic. IMHO, every dollar we toss into this moneypit is one hundred pennies less for Bush to wage war with. Onward to Mars! Rockets are shaped the way they are for a reason (no, it's NOT that men created them as giant proxy penises to shoot gloriously into the heavens) Oh, Fes, I could swoon--help me make this into one of the greatest Monkeyfilter taglines evar!
• Fes, that's good and great, but I think there are things far more important in this world that demand our attention like, say, the war in Iraq. OK, if that's not enough to get your attention, then allow me to point to world hunger, or the AIDS/HIV epidemic, illiteracy, global warming, violence, etc. I can see how it's important for the human race to explore, but if the US is going to do something as monumental as to put a man in mars and calling it a step "for mankind" (as in the 6.5 billion of us) is because a possible future in mars is viable for all of us (all 6.5 billion of us) ride included... As far as other points are concerned, fine, I agree, the ISS is white is elephant-ish, but it is THERE already, abandoning it could posibbly be the worst mistake ever made (financially and scientifically speaking) so why not take advantage of it?
• I'd be honored to! How about: Monkeyfilter: A giant proxy penis shot gloriously into the heavens.
• I think there are things far more important in this world that demand our attention like, say, the war in Iraq. OK, if that's not enough to get your attention, then allow me to point to world hunger, or the AIDS/HIV epidemic, illiteracy, global warming, violence, etc. I can understand the sentiment, certainly; but it's not a matter of either/or. We can deal with these issues *and* fund a Mars mission, can't we? Plus there can be some debate, as well; Iraq is an important issue today, but in the grand scheme of human existence (or even in the not-so-grand scheme of the last couple generations), it's nearly a non-event, a historical blip; putting a man on Mars could easily be seen as the culmination of the entire evolution of human technology, and the stepping stone of a new age of mankind.
• "We can deal with these issues *and* fund a Mars mission, can't we?" two words, Budget Deficit. "Iraq is an important issue today, but in the grand scheme of human existence [...] it's nearly a non-event" Not if it manages to strain our economy to the point of bankrupcy. Then you can really kiss any plans of Mars bye bye. it's all wishful (correction) wasteful thinking
• And there are aspects of this that might help in exactly the problems you mention: could not microwaved solar power disincline us to use oil, thereby reducing the disproportionate affect on world events that the Middle East enjoys because of their petroleum stocks? Let alone the benefit to climate change that might be had by reducing carbon emissions for energy production, or the pollutive aspects of our dirty industries - why NOT move those industries that are our big polluters off planet, where they can give their waste a gentle push towards the sun and forget about it, rather than bury it in the ground in leaky drums? We know that life in zero-g tends to slow down metabolism - mightn't it not also slow down the effects of HIV? If so, orbit could end up being the best place for AIDS sufferers to be; even if not, zero-G is a good place for synthesizing pure substances and drugs - a pharmacological laboratory in orbit might be able to perfect a vaccine - if not for AIDS, perhaps for the next epidemic that comes along. Point being, perhaps these things are not just not either/or for funding, but might easily have some cross-issue benefits. Not if it manages to strain our economy to the point of bankrupcy. Then you can really kiss any plans of Mars bye bye. Well, the production capabilities of the American economy don't just disappear in time of budgetary deficits. I agree with you that deficit spending to the (rather mortifying) point that the Bush administration has done does not a healthy economy make - at the same time, before the Clinton administration, budget deficits were the rule, rather than the exception, and the tech boom (along with the tobacco company extortion scheme, at the state level) fueled a lot of that. I'm not sure how the US might go "bankrupt", though, so long as it retains the significant productive capability it has now, deficits or not. But then again: historical blip. Today's deficits might could turn into the next guy's surplusses again. Reagan ran deficits roughly comparable to Bush and the Fed cracked his ass with high interest rates for years to beat inflation, and a decade later government was swimming in money, so I'm less inclined to get too worked up about it, provided that I save and work diligently at keeping myself employed. Conversely, a Mars mission, especially with any sort of permanence to it, would be a generations-long project, as would revamping the ISS along the lines I've mentioned.
• it's all wishful (correction) wasteful thinking I agree on the former, less so on the corrected latter. I don't think Bush was seriously considering a manned Mars mission at all, and it wouldn't surprise me if he lets the ISS go the way of SkyLab.
• The Wizard of Christchurch says that the feminists are wrong and that skyscrapers, rockets etc are not penises being thrust into the sky that in actuality mankind is shitting into the universe.
• Completely unsubstantiated numbers time: the space program, as a percentage of the national budget, is miniscule—less than one percent. Whether NASA is wasting this money on frivolous pursuits is another matter, but assuming NASA stuck to the general mandate of advancing scientific knowledge through the exploration and study of space, can we really not afford to spend that fraction of a percent on the space program and still pay for things like unemployment insurance, basic health care coverage and the like? Sure, there are projects more deserving of funding than NASA. There are also tons of projects less deserving of funding.
• Also, I don't remember why I said "completely unsubstantiated." It's in NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe's speech to the US Space Foundation's Annual Symposium this year.
• F*CKER! THIS.
• If the ISS is to tumble into the atmosphere and burn up, I hope Bush and his pals get to visit shortly (a few seconds) beforehand.
• Looks like Fes has the ultimate solution to the AIDS epidemic: fire 'em all into space! I'm all for microwaved solar energy, if only because the 100-foot microwave beam o' death sounds like it'd look fucken awesome.
• Behold, the Toothbrush That Just Saved the International Space Station
• What no floss? Nine out of ten dentists say flossing is more important. Pfft! I can tell you that those repairs won't last. No duct tape, bailing wire, or WD-40 was used. Bound to fail.