September 24, 2004

• I don't understand how he could be so calm about going to commit suicide. Just reading that gave me the chills, along the same lines as reading posts on LJ from people who died later that day in the WTC attack.
• graffiti. How disrespectful it is to misspell an epitaph (of sorts).
• inaeldi, people are generally calm, even happy, before they commit suicide because to get to that point, you have to be in an awful place, and right before you do it, you know you're problems are about to be over. (never comtemplated suicide myself, but I've been very close to someone who came very, very close)
• Oh, man. I had to do some research into incidents like this for my job some time ago - in addition to the Ripper incident, there was a girl who attempted suicide in front of her webcam, Stacey I believe her name was - but it still hits home with a horrible, powerful jolt every time you see something like this. My first reaction, always, is that there's something about announcing in a public forum that you're going to kill yourself which is just wrong. The gut reaction is some sort of "what a strange, disturbed world we live in" thought about exhibitionism, and so on - it seems to reinforce the unpleasant stereotypes of suicide as a self-centred, selfish, attention-seeking act. I mean, aren't suicide notes one of the most private things one could ever write? Something to be seen only by those you most care about. Then, of course, I realise that that's exactly what they are doing. Just as with the not-quite-stalker and his Pursuing Jane blog, they're simply being honest in ways that are uncomfortable simply because they're more open than we're used to. And so, more scope for others to be judgemental, to feel a visceral reaction against what they're reading. That people feel so able to allow their most vulnerable side to be seen in this manner - even in such tragic circumstances, and despite my instinctive distaste for it, I always end up thinking that such open communication surely helps many more people than it hurts.
• Smo: I came literally within inches of committing suicide once (thanks in great to the wonder drug that is Paxil), and my whole emotional state at the time was one of "fuck it". Mind you, I'm not saying that what I went through was typical, it just still strikes me as odd.
• I am a horrible man. Far from solemnity, all I feel on reading his suicide entry is irritation. Why is it littered with mistakes? Your last message to the world, and you draft it so carelessly?
• inaeldi: Wow. Glad to hear you were able to get away from it before it killed you. My mom had the opposite problem. She nearly killed herself before the doctors were able to diagnose the problem (very serious postpartum depression or schizophrenia, depends who you ask) and get her onto the drugs to try to fix it. Hers was a feeling of utter desperation. She couldn't deal with day-to-day life, and she felt the only option was to end it altogether. Maybe because of the drug involved in your case you weren't in this sort of mental space? Anyway, sorry about the derail.
• It's hardly a derail, Smo; also, I echo your sentiments. And fuyugare - you're not alone in that. It wasn't my main reaction, but I couldn't help thinking back to that Onion article about the declining standards of grammar in children's suicide notes. (Though he did mention pills and alchohol, which may well be the reason.)
• I'm thinking that if your only friends are the people you meet online, it doesn't say much about a life well lived. I kinda feel like sh**heel for that.
• the unpleasant stereotypes of suicide as a self-centred, selfish, attention-seeking act. That's what it is, if you're young and not terminally diseased. A bullshit piece of theater completely without regard to anyone.
• The darker side of LiveJournal (As discovered by random walks through the web of links starting from suicide-boy's journal.) Cutters: 1 2 3 4; Anorexics or anorexia fetishists: 1 2 3 4a 4b; Murder fantasy: 1; Paxil (ab?)users: 1; etc. Interesting species, these 'humans'...
• Not to make light of this at all....A very close friend actually succeeded in committing suicide on his third try in as many years. A gun to the mouth. Very messy. Anyhow, he left, like, half a dozen suicide notes to various people. We had a huge gathering a couple of days later and we all compared our respective notes. It was a very strange day. Fits of giggles here and there. The notes were so very typical of him. He was so anal about things and it totally came across in his letters. They really made us laugh (in a loving way) because they were so God-awful long and really didn't say a whole lot, plus they were very repetative. We also thought it was funny that he wrote letters to so many people. Something like this is always such an intense shock to the system, sometimes you will react in the most bizarre ways. God knows, we had a lot of laughs the day we got togethor to 'remember' him. On a side note, one of his excuses to make this okay was that he owed one of us $10,000. He specifically left instructions that part of his life-insurance policy was to take care of that debt. Well, as most of us know, it doesn't count if you kill yourself. We ended up laughing about that, too. Wondering if he would have killed himself if he knew that his debt was not going to be taken care of.
• Did this guy really kill himself ? Is there some way you can check ? ( Snopes ? )
• If my spelling and grammar was as bad as his, I'd kill myself, too.
• Now why exactly is it that the non-depressed think that the depressed owe it to normal people to live on in pain so they won't have to feel any? You're in a state where you feel completely unconnected to the world, but are expected to remember that you owe people who are much, much more capable of reasoning properly something that you know you'll never have. Security. Happiness. An understanding that the world is a beautiful place. I'm not at all surprised that people kill themselves. What really surprises me is how often we remember you smug normal bastards and don't.
• Yeah, down with the smug normal bastards! ('Smurmals'?) Preach it, sister!
• I prefer 'smugaltards' myself. In a weird mood. Had to kick this crusty punk couple out of the parking area of our building. He's tweaking and walking in circles and she's somehow interpreting his slurred grunting as his side of some kind of lover's spat. I mean, I could not understand a fucking word this guy was saying, but she could, and she'd launch into this whole thing about how irresponsible and selfish he was, and he's like convulsively jerking from the meth while walking into support pillars and tripping on their two carts. And I'm thinking, Jesus, when did the street punks all turn into tweaking binners, you know, "Because when I was a punk, by God, we had a little more dignity! Oh sure, we'd do acid and climb trees, maybe puke off the porch once in a while after snortin' junk, but these kids today..." And it was just really depressing.
• Sadly, punk died with Johnny Ramone.
• MJ: the problem is kids these days aren't like the kids in the old days. Or maybe it's that they are just like the kids in the old days and we've turned into our parents without realizing it. Trite, but probably true to an extent. 'Scuse me, I have to go yell at some kids on my lawn.
• MonkeyFilter: punk died with Johnny Ramone. MonkeyFilter: it was just really depressing. MonkeyFilter: trite, but probably true to an extent.
• Smo: At least in my experience, not all suicide attempts are so beatific. moneyjane: mmmyeah. It sucks how everyone on planet earth is an selfish, souless automaton like that, simply optimizing pain-pleasure potentials in their own brains. Caring about other people is an illusion.
• Monkeyfilter: Very messy.
• i'm with cardenio.
• I hate to sound like the asshole here, but this is LJ, and people say things like this every day. (I'm allowed to say that, 'cause I'm on it.) That said, I hope that kid's okay. As for the cutting/anorexia communities and such, they are endemic. I've found it hard to find a community about mental health that isn't based on "my sickness is worse than yours" one-upmanship or "those stupid normals don't understand us" elitism. There are crusades and parodies. It's stupidly common. I don't know whether to take that post literally or not, because there are a lot of grandstanders, be they exhibitionists or just confused kids who change their minds once they've posted. But it is an environment given to almost ridiculous levels of openness, so I guess that could be surprising to some. I wouldn't assume that their only friends are online, either. Do people still assume that if you write words online you never talk to real people? That's so quaint.
• moneyjane, your point of view is refreshing in its empathy for the person with suicidal thoughts. Thanks. The moral calculus of suicide is different in each case. Some external factors others can see, for example, how bad does the suicidal person's life objectively suck, does he or she have kids, etc. But one factor only God can judge (if He/She/It exists and indulges in the whole judging thing): how screwed up the suicidal person's brain is. Once a person's brain chemistry/pathways are messed up bad enough, suicide is not really a "choice" anymore, because the person isn't capable of making rational choices. That's why we call it crazy, folks. If they were rational, they wouldn't be crazy. The belief that depression doesn't affect one's rationality like schizophrenia or psychosis does is an error. Severely depressed people are not thinking right; they make decisions they wouldn't make if they were sane at the time. Blaming a severely depressed person for commiting suicide is no more charitible than blaming a schizophrenic for thinking that aliens are after him. Clinical depression is a horrible disease with a 20% fatality rate (through suicide). People who know they are depressives have a moral obligation to take care of themselves when they are well, by eating right, exercising, taking their meds, etc., just like people with other chronic illnesses have an obligation to take care of themselves in order to prevent relapse. But when a person is already in a depressive state, the time when they can responsibly control their decisions is past. That's why we put them in mental hospitals until they get better.
• They're not kidding about the mess. When I was a reporter, I accompanied police on a call where they suspected suicide. Coroner ended up not being able to tell for sure, because the guy did it in his bathroom, which had one of those wall inset heaters? Which was left on, about a foot or so from where he'd fallen. We discovered him about 10-14 days after the event. The words "bone soup" came to mind, right before I had to go outside for a moment. All of which is to say: if you are planning an exeunt, consider with care what you want people to find, especially if it's your family and not a bunch of cops (and one queasy beat-reporter) that are likely to find you. Best: ocean. Hire boat, sail out, jump in, face boat, use gun.
• Hey, some people think about it, Fes. Not wanting to look icky when I died was one of the primary reasons I didn't just off myself as an Angsty Teenager. (unfortunately? jury's still out. ;) )
• One of my favorite people in the world killed himself about a week ago. Eh... it just sucks. (Insert semi-coherent comment here.)
• so sorry, meredithea. condolences.
• Depression is an extremely painful disease so I understand why suicide would seem rational to the sufferer. Judging them for their actions is a worthless enterprise and helps to perpetuate stereotypes which, I believe, slow down the efforts to find a cure.
• She says that she will miss her kitten. She will not miss her kitten. She will not be weightless. She will not be without problems. She will no longer exist. She will be nothing. I wonder what the atheist/non-atheist stats are on suicide.
• 'She'? Suicide-boy had a posthumous sex-change?
• No one can judge another person's pain. And Krebs Cycle, brain chemistry changes when you're happy, too. I wonder sometimes if we aren't confusing cause and effect.
• "Caring about other people is an illusion." It certainly is, if blaming someone with a severe psychiatric illness for killing themselves because they owe you their life is thought to be either logical or compassionate. Do you know how utterly compelling suicide is to someone in a suicidally depressive state? It's like having been forced to stay standing and awake for 7 days and then being led to a room with a huge fluffy white bed and told that if you are tired, you can sleep. Thinking a depressive who kills themselves is a dick is like thinking someone who breaks under torture is a dick. Unless you've been there, you'll never know how you'd do, and negatively judging someone's actions in such a state is pretty mindless.
• I fail to see why I, as a smurmard, need to have such overflowing empathy with the suicidally depressed. If someone close to me committed suicide, I'd be pissed off that they picked a non-optimal solution to their problems, not that they have deprived me of their company which was my due. But other than that I can't bring myself to care. Krupke, we got troubles of our own.
• The intense anger people feel when someone suicides is, I think, totally understandable, but sometimes I think it's really anger that suicide exists at all - that life, and so our lives, are so inherently fragile. Often the people most vehemently angry at suicides (including, for a very long time, myself) are those who are using it as a way to avoid topping themselves. And that can be deadly, because often the same people are also resistant to the idea of being medicated for depression. They feel that they can handle anything through force of will. Which is both understandable and admirable, but no match for the catastrophic force of suicidal thinking. And suicidal depression can be anybody's problem. Bringing yourself to care, really thinking about it, now, when you are healthy and able to do so may well save your life should you ever find yourself suicidally depressed. After a certain point, you just can't stay alive any longer for other people. Not for your husband/wife, parents, or your children. And if, during a severe depressive state, the idea that only selfish assholes commit suicide is the sole reason not to pull the trigger, you'll pull it, because you've just added "I'm a selfish asshole" to the groaning list of reasons you shouldn't be alive, and will feel the people you love are better off without such a terrible person. You have to stay alive for yourself, and to do that, you've got to understand how the brain works when it's trying to kill you.
• It's much harder to care about someone when they are only a pseudonym on the screen, vs. being a real, live human being you can touch. Somewhere behind those names are real people, but reaching out to them is not the same as reaching out to your next door neighbor. Perhaps it's time to put down the keyboards and go out and actually meet people. Online, it's easier to meet people with common interests, but meeting people who don't have the same interests leads to a much fuller life. Definitely something I should do instead of bitching about my "crappy" life.
• MonkeyFilter: definitely something I should do.
• krebs cycle: Once a person's brain chemistry/pathways are messed up bad enough, suicide is not really a "choice" anymore, because the person isn't capable of making rational choices. That's why we call it crazy, folks. If they were rational, they wouldn't be crazy. moneyjane: Unless you've been there, you'll never know how you'd do, and negatively judging someone's actions in such a state is pretty mindless. if, during a severe depressive state, the idea that only selfish assholes commit suicide is the sole reason not to pull the trigger, you'll pull it, because you've just added "I'm a selfish asshole" to the groaning list of reasons you shouldn't be alive Thank you, Krebs and Moneyjane, for articulating that so well. In the past I've dealt with suicidal tendencies, and when fueled by depression it's hardly a publicity stunt, and certainly not always selfish. It's more like every time something goes wrong, you feel yourself inching closer and closer to something absolutely necessary and overwhelmingly obligatory. Usually because you'd rather be dead than insane with grief, depression, loneliness, etc. Sadly, what kept me going in the end was not hope for myself, but out of pity for people who would mourn me. In a way that was my first step to recovery, though, because I forced myself to accept that there were people in this world who I truly was important to.
• by the way, i'm fine now :) and yeah, i'm a teenager.
• Once again. Meeting people on the internet and meeting people in real life are not mutually exclusive. The net is so widespread now that it is not the sole domain of isolated geeks. Regular people who actually do "get outside" and "have a life" use that there information superhighway, too. If you mean to say "some people become isolated, and it would be healthy to meet new people," then that's true. But blaming it all on that demon internet, and the trope that talking to people online precludes ever talking to them offline, is stretching it. And while I'm bitching, for what it's worth, there is some (limited) worth in seeking out people like yourself on the web. At least at first, it can make someone who feels entirely freakish and isolated feel that they aren't "the only one in the whole world" that doesn't fit the mold around them. Through this they can feel that they aren't wrong after all, that they are valid people and deserve to be happy. And thereby might, just might, go out into the world and try to find a place for themselves. It's a first step, in other words. Yeah, if you are an iPod-wearing latte-sipping sort, there are a thousand of yourself all around you - to find validation and community you just have to look up from your laptop. It may be a bit hard to understand that feeling of not seeming right as a human being. But not understanding tends not to stop people from criticizing anyway. But my point was, you CAN talk to people online AND offline; they are not mutually exclusive.
• Has anybody read this ? I haven't, but it looks promising. I've been suicidally depressed since my first attempt at age eleven, and twenty years of staying alive has brought me to a strange conclusion - curiosity is my saving grace. As mundane as it sounds, wondering what happens next is the single biggest motivating factor I have. That, and knowing that if it really gets that bad, I'll do it, and won't feel guilty. And then it just never gets that bad. It's like knowing you can always leave makes it easier to stay.
• Half my age, selling at a premium what some of us can't even pay others to take, and still depressed? Wow. I feel... like hell, on one hand, and weirdly "I guess it can happen to anyone" on the other hand. I'm alive because I love life and the world. I just can't stand myself, justifiably so. Kind of the inverse of most people in that situation. Shutting up now! :)
• Actually, I feel the best I've ever felt in my life - but that's the drugs. Were I cut off, I'd revert back to my natural state, bada bing, bada boom, kaboom.
• A "friend of a friend" killed themself after leaving a note in lj. There's a community set up to inform people when someone has committed suicide or otherwise died. I'm sure some of them are fakes, but the one I knew of before was real. And yes, the guy suffered from chronic depression, no medication.
• moneyjane: on rereading, my riposte was not very coherent, so I apologize. Your posting did raise intense feelings in me, because it posited, even jokingly, two classes of people; blithe and "smug" normals, and the suicidal. I reread the thread at least three times and I didn't see any such smugness for you to react against. Someone said it was an initial reaction, but it faded. You'd be right to rail against such people -- your description of the suicidal person as torture victim was eloquent. But... this sort of hostility, when it comes out unprovoked, has a familiar ring, to me. None of us know what the other person has been through. Who are you to say that person over there who wears pink and listens to treacly pop doesn't cut herself up when she gets home? Or that even someone who seems successful, functional and happy, might have gone through things you or I can't imagine. And I'll decloak and say, from experience, that thinking your depression gives you X-ray moral vision, that it sets you apart from other people, is just another trick of the depressed mind. I like the ideas behind the book you posted. Suicide as an addiction. When I was at my most suicidal, I was fully insulated in a cocoon of my own misery. Stepping outside for regular interaction was more painful, or less secure, or what have you. And... suicide attempts can be oddly exhilirating, if you survive them.
• verbose, I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought they were, just that a significant number of them are fairly similar to what I described. Anyway, I wanted to say that, wow, moneyjane has pretty much nailed how I feel about the issue.
• I worded it badly, but the smug bastards I was referring to are people in the general sense who do not understand how suicidal thinking works, and, not only that, don't care to know, because it's easier to write off a suicide as an asshole. In 2004, an educated person who thinks like this is, to my mind, smug. "Who are you to say that person over there who wears pink and listens to treacly pop doesn't cut herself up when she gets home?" Never said she didn't. The "normal" I was referring to was in the sense of non-depressed, not "people who wear pink can't be suicidal" Looking at people and deciding who's "normal" in that sense is ridiculous. There is no normal. But I think we can agree that there is state of being suicidally depressed, and a state of not being suicidally depressed. "...thinking your depression gives you X-ray moral vision, that it sets you apart from other people, is just another trick of the depressed mind." No. My depressed mind sets me apart from other people whose mind functions normally. And I don't think it takes anything close to x-ray moral vision on anybody's part to understand, once they know a bit about what it's like to be in a suicidal state, that calling someone selfish for suiciding is a serious case of brainlessly kicking somebody when they are down.
• Heh...I wonder if we should list 'trigger topics' on our profiles, just to warn people who's going to go apeshit about what...guess y'all gathered this is one of mine. I'll shut up now :)
• ...brainlessly kicking somebody when they are down. brainlessly... Or condescendingly. Or compassionatly. Or ignorantly. Or holier-than-thouly. Speaking of which. I notice we all seem to be treating depression as a purely physical malady that can be cured with the right pill. Anyone here believe in soul-sickness?
• moneyjane, i find you describe the suicidal state well. i've made two serious attempts that led to hospitalisation, before i finally cleaned up my life and got away from the circumstances that made self-care impossible. i certainly wasn't thinking about anything other than the need to stop the 'psychic' pain that i was in: a black hole that had no end and beat me emotionally to the point that i was ready to do anything to make it stop. i was zapped with ECT the first time, but declined the second. i envy those people who can not grasp such total despair and believe one should be able to think rationally of the effect on others. i recall that my family was no help at all at those times. in fact i had been alone at home for days without seeing my husband or daughter. they simply didn't want to be around this old depressed person. i've often talked to people who are outraged at suicide, to explain such. it does not make an impact on those who are so far removed from it. /but i'm doing great now! over the last few years i've completely changed my lifestyle, circumstances and have finally established a med regime thaat balances out my mood swings. (manic-depressive) /i didn't leave any notes as i was too focused on my task, i guess. 'soul-sickness' is a good description of the feelings. thanks patb.
• Suicide is fucked up. And it's a societal problem; it's not a mental illness, it's a mental illness brought about by illness in the way we live. It's sad, and I feel empathy for all who are close to an individual who takes their life, but what's even more sad is that this happens every day all over the world, and little is ever done to address it. I'm not talking about more anti-depressent drugs, I'm talking about the core problems with our capitalist republican society that creates these consumerist driven environments where people and communities cease to be, and instead become just cogs in the great machine. It's a feeling of hopelessness, and it's a feeling that has only continued to grow as our society gets more and more fucked up. And really, it's just another drop in the bucket of all the endemic problems in society that stem from our desires to live in suburbs, drive automobiles, get cheap cd-players, and forget what it is that all human beings need, which is compassion and companionship. We're a fucked up creation, us 'civilized' creatures. If only that phrase were true.... I'll think good thoughts for the family and friends of this guy; that's the best any of us can do, and to realize and learn from events like this how to better our own lives to keep those we hold dear always with us.
• This is a really good thread..... I will go back to my friend who finally succeeded in his suicide attempt. As I said, the last time was his third in as many years. Those of us close to him made huge efforts to understand where exactly he was. Why he was motivated to do this. We all came to realize that we were absolutely powerless to do anything to stop him. It truly came down to him. What stood out the most was that he was the most vulnerable when he was close to people. He would get so deeply hurt that he could not deal with it in a healthy way. He had such tremendous self-hatred and a complete lack of self-worth. We finally found out after his death where that came from. His family, down in Texas, never came up to the funeral, nor did they seem terribly surprised or hurt by the news. They never made an effort to find out any of the circumstances. Several of us contacted them to share our thoughts, but the indifference was sickening. We knew we couldn't stop him and eventually we understood that if it was that bad for him, maybe we should just accept what he felt he had to do. We were all close, but sometimes, it's just not enough. My own depression has been dealt with by excessive drug use, really excessive, lot's of alcohol, lot's of anything that kept me from thinking. Eventually I hit some sort of internal wall. I quit everything, maintained a depression, eventually started to see light. After having children, it started to creep back to the danger point. I am now medicated and doing quite well. I can't imagine suicide now. Everything in my life has become too important. It's a real good feeling.
• I think part of the problem moneyjane and others have talked about is the stigma associated with mental illness and psychiatric drugs. Mental illness is a chemical imbalance. Rarely is it something that can be overcome by sheer force of will. While it's all well and good to say we should all learn to value our life more and be proactive with depression, the simple fact is people who are mentally ill are often utterly incapable of doing so, and it's arrogant, insensitive, and just plain wrong, to blame the people who have to live their lives in their own personal hell every single day for trying to find a way out. We need to wipe away the idea that psychiatric drugs represent an admission of weakness. They don't, and it's vitally important that we make it as easy as possible for people who may already be adverse to admitting they have a problem to do so. I don't want to say that every situation warrants diagnosis and drugs, but people should never be afraid to ask for help or admit that there's something wrong, and I can't judge those who manage to do it despite the pressure against them. Nor can I judge the people who succumb to it.
• Great thread. The most evocative comment for me has been "know when your brain is trying to kill you." That's exactly my experience, right there. Under certain circumstances, I now know that my lump of thinking meat will get sprained, and I end up having to nurse the (stupid effing infantile) organ back to health.
• Amazing thread. Thank you, Darshon, for your most recent post. I'm glad your friend stuck around long enough for you to understand, from the outside, the kind of life moneyjane so eloquently described. And I agree with Socrates, or whoever it was, who said 'the unexamined life is not worth living' and someone else who said 'suicide is the ultimate (or only, I'm not sure) philosophical question. I'd go a step further (maybe too far for some) and say that if you haven't felt suicidal at least once in your life, you just aren't paying attention.
• I said somewhere else that I'm on anti-depressants: happy pills that don't make me happy, only allow me to experience happiness when it is warranted. I'm sticking my nose in here to point out that not everyone who is depressed is suicidal. I wanted to die, yes. I dreamt about it every night, and wanted it all the more in the morning, but suicide was something I never seriously considered. I don't know why. Otherwise I was a complete vegetable until I somehow found myself alone with a doctor, so maybe that is part of the answer. Yes, depression has a strange stigma attached (I like describing myself as "wrong in the head", much to the dismay of whoever I'm talking to); yes, it is often a physical disease that can be treated with the right drug; and yes, the symptoms and resonses to treatment vary form person to person (one of the side effects at the beginning of anti-depressant treatment is suicide - the patient is finally empowered to end it all). Nothing is black and white concerning this disease.
• It's like having been forced to stay standing and awake for 7 days and then being led to a room with a huge fluffy white bed and told that if you are tired, you can sleep. That's probably the best description I've ever heard. I've only known two people who finally did it. Just thinking about them makes me angry. Not at them, I have nothing but sadness and sympathy for them, but at the act itself and the inablity of anyone to help them. Family, friends, doctors, everyone did everything they could but it just wasn't enough. I just hope that the continuing advances in the brain sciences will at least lead to a cure for the biological component soon.
• Anyone see 'The Hours?' how dare you decide you know better than me whether I should live or die! how dare you assume that this life is all there is to eternity? how many people are there on this planet? what kind of a Pollyanna are you that you think I can't be replaced? what kind of an ubermensch are you that you think you're better than me and can make my most private and personal decisions for me? My mind is every bit as good as yours, I'm just not deceived by being high on life. Who the fuck do you think you are that you can tell me my deepest convictions are a chemical imbalance? huh? did you learn it on TV? msybe on Oprah or Dr.Phil? Maybe you read it in a first-year psych book? think I'm a troll? need to have my meds adjusted? dammit, what if i'm right? Did you ever consider that?
• What if you are wrong? Do you ever consider that, PatB? Never question other people's ability to question themselves.
• Zemat of course I've considered that! Part of the reason I'm alive today is because I put other people's world view above my own. the folks who say one must stay alive at all costs, or one is mentally ill and therefore incapable of deciding one way or the other...these people have a voice. A huge voice, backed by a multi-billion dollar industry full of people who will lose their jobs if they actually DO their jobs and people get 'better' I don't question other people's ability to question themselves AT ALL. I reject other people's certainty that they know what normal is, and that if I choose to die its because I am sick and just need the right meds to bring me around.
• or some exercise. or a more balanced diet. or more positive thinking. or a good fuck. or to be born again in Jesus. or ECT. or involuntary admission into the nut house. Or insulin shock therapy. or or or or or. No thank you, people. You don't get to decide if I live or die. That's between me and...if one exists...god.
• Clam out, PatB ;) I won't tell you to take a pill or anything. I don't even care. Well, I care, but because I care I will pretend I don't. ;)
• To be quite honest, I've considered offing myself as well PatB. The only thing that's held me back is the overwhelming urge to live forever and also not knowing if there's an afterlife. If there is an afterlife, I'm hoping it's like Valhalla.
• BTW, why do half the comments on that 'community reaction' link say 'rest in power'? Also, when exactly did 'rest in peace' instead of 'requiesca(n)t in pace' become the proper expansion of 'RIP', or has it always been so?
• "Nothing is black and white concerning this disease." Absolutely. If you are very lucky, things like diet and exercise help. If you are lucky, the drugs help. If you are very unlucky, nothing works.
• Also i think you underestimate the strength of will ... if not for will power I'd have many many more problems then i currently have. ( i had a much longer post here but I decided against sharing that much information with all of you)
• You know what I think about the most when I think of friends who are gone......What their missing. Or maybe what I am missing, the shared experience. I hear a new song, see a new movie, or 9/11 happens, or Bush steals the presidency, or even something small, like getting stoned, going for a hike and listening to Van Morrison. I experience these things and their not here to experience them as well. I know what they would have said about that movie or that song. I know how much 9/11 would have devastated them. I know how great a day they would have had going for that hike. I wonder, if they could have held on, would they be able to look back and be glad they didn't do it? For me, that's the worst. Years later, still wishing they had held on.
• Darshon Me too. My depressed and self-medicating best friend had a suspicious 'accidental' OD six years ago. I also still think I see him all the time, at least a couple times a week, but they're just people who look like him. I wonder if that ever stops? I wonder if it's because I never saw him dead. I was out of the country when it happened, and could only get back to Canada a day too late for the funeral and wake. I'd been away for seven months, and it kind of feels like a continuation of away-ness, rather than death - like maybe he's just off in another country somewhere. But maybe it's like that for everybody.
• great thread. I'm not sure the stigma will ever go away. It's gotten better than it was before. Hospitals aren't charging admission to view the "mad" for tuppence anymore. It's one of those things I've often tried to understand. Having worked in the "mental health" feild for awhile (advocacy and lobbying) I'd say one of the contributing factors is the families themselves. Before anyone jumps on me for that, I have an uncle with paranoid schizophrenia and I have been severely depressed a number of times, so have a first hand view of how families can change after a loved one is diagnosed as being mentally ill. I agree diet and exercise can help keep depression at bay but more importantly is self awareness. I disagree that attempting suicide is attention seeking. I wouldn't say the obsessive thoughts about dying are addicting, more just another symptom of the disease - just like suicide is a symptom. As for what sparked this whole debate off, whether it is true or not, it bothered me, I've written and then deleted about 4 posts so far. I try to remind myself there is a living, feeling, thinking human on the other side of the screen all the time. Might be partly why this post bothers me.
• self awareness. What beeza said. Mental self-discipline - being able to identify, control, and block out circular and downward-spiraling thoughts/mental tirades - this is crucial.
• Wrongly Accused Student Commits Suicide