August 09, 2004

• no experience with any group by that name, but in general: Aaaaiiiiiiggghhh!! Run!
• This is a good summary of the kinds of things I've found on them.
• Avoid.
• I think "cult" might be a strongish word, but obviously they are of the stripe that tends to, ah, downplay intellectual growth and direction in favor of spirituality. There is nothing wrong with spirituality - until it begins targetting your pocketbook and intellectual precepts. You seem like a reasonable and perceptive person. If you feel that, possibly, this Landmark group might be something you wish to add to your life, then there is no reason to not attend the seminar. However, I would advise you at the same time no be very careful about not checking your brain at the door when you go! People are emotional beings, and spiritually-based organiations are very adept at manipulating those emotions to their gain. And at the same time, don't be afraid to say no to things that you don't feel comfortable agreeing to. Look at what's offered; see if it jibes with what you are looking for; use Occam's Razor and your own inherent bullshit detector to find inconsistancies and obvious ploys for funds; and do not turn off your critical thinking. Examine and decide rationally rather than in response to emotional manipulation, and you will do ok. I might, however, go to the first seminar alone. Your girlfriend could easily serve as a convenient sounding board for the things that occur and points that are proferred at the first seminar. Go, take it all in, come home and tell her what happened. If she seems dubious? I think that would be a good clue as to the verity of the group. And as ALWAYS, watch your wallet. I have a very good friend who is a missionary in China and Tibet, another who is a Revered Deacon in the United Church of Christ, and neither will make an overt case for your money, though they both might be in dire straights. The missionary, as an example, works 6 months out of the year to fund his missionary group the other six - and despite our long-standing friendship, has *never* put the touch on me for a single buck. That is a dedicated believer.
• Based on that skepdic article, and pretty much everything else I can find about them, I'd concur with pete and Nostril: Run, run, run as though the very hounds of hell were snapping at your heels. The seminars may well be powerful and uplifiting experiences. It seems likely that they may also be ruinously expensive powerful and uplifiting experiences - for you, your friends, and family.
• (Shit. On 8/24, Curiosa will be in Chula Vista, CA, the city of my birth. And I'm currently stuck ikn Florida. Bah)
• Upon review of link? I concur with Nostrildamus. Avoid them. At *best* you're going to attend seminars with "participants [who] were significantly more distressed than peer and normative samples of community residents and had a higher level of impact of recent negative life events compared with peer (but not normative) samples." Not exactly Saturday night at the clubhouse.
• My sister was told by her boss that she *had* to attend The Landmark Forums. From everything that she has told me it's very much cultish, if not directly a cult. If I recall correctly her series of seminars cost around $500 (which the boss paid). I'd avoid like the plague.
• Mefi thread on same topic.
• i'm most troubled that they are "recruiting" or "suggesting" or whatever you want to call it, in your workplace. that is NOT right. at the very least you should inform your HR people (or, in a smaller firm, a manager) that this is going on. less assertive workers may feel pressured to attend these "seminars." FWIW, i have a cousin who is very active in this and is very positive about it. myself, i think it's a load of hooey. but as i said... please tell your HR folks that you were approached at work. that shouldn't be happening.
• Monkeyfilter: Myself, I think it's a load of hooey.
• Avoid large groups; they eat brains.
• Go, and kill them all
• I've heard of Landmark, and I've also known at least one person who has gone. On general principles, whether you regard the organisation as a cult or not, you should avoid the sort of experience they provide. It's mostly due to the fact that _group_ psychology is very different from individual psychology. People will do and say things in groups that they would never do on a one to one basis. Landmark (and others of its ilk) can and do provide a powerful experience, people will get genuinely enthusiastic about it, and as you have seen will endeavour to get other people to go as well. The downside - well, there are a few. The most dangerous, though the least investigated, is that all sorts of material can get dragged out of your subconscious and memory, and it happens in a completely uncontrolled environment. A psychotic episode is a real possibility. Next, these environments can induce people to tell parts of their life story to total strangers. That process can leave you very vulnerable to later coercion (look at how messed up you were, the things you have told us, we can help etc etc) and that is not something to be done lightly. The hours that need to be put in to Landmark are astounding, and designed to leave you open and vulnerable (see above). 3+ hours stints, without refreshments, bathroom breaks, food to eat, these are actions which will break down your will and mental defenses and again, is not something to enter into lightly.
• Had a girlfriend who went to something like this... was like 3 or 5 days long, all day and into the evening. $500 with the promise that if you didn't think it was worth it at the end you could get a refund. She wanted me to try it but no one would tell me what it was about -- they didn't wan't to "spoil it" for me. You know, when people won't answer your questions... well, that's not a good sign in my book... I took a pass. Can't remember what the thing was called although I recall there was a second or third level you could do called "The Wall". -s
• Take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
• If you're having a bad day at work, or going through a period of the blahs, etc, trust me: this LEC is NOT going to make a difference in your life. What on earth can this organization possibly do for you - with your money - that you can't do yourself? If you're having personal problems, money problems, mood problems, etc, then there are far more legitimate means with which to address them. Avoid this LEC like the plague.
• Sounds good! I'll be there!
• Oh shit sorry I thought this was a meetup thread.
• That's what initially got me to do some research on the subject, davidmsc. The way that they had described it, it sounded like a panacea. It immediately made me skeptical.
• If they want more than a small fee then no matter what it is, they are out to make money off of people. If a group really wants to help people, they will do it at a very low cost, or they will have an office with a waiting room and a receptionist (of course just because they have those things doesn't mean that automatically makes them legit, either!).
• Ok. A company I worked for once wanted me to go to the Landmark Education thing. They also did the thing where they wouldn't explain exactly what it was. I ended up going with two other coworkers/friends. There was a bunch of mumbo jumbo talk, and they wanted you to share.. they were putting some heavy psychological pressure on. When we broke up for lunch, I pressured my coworkers to let me leave (one of them had done the driving). They were reluctant because it was 'required', so I ended up going back for the afternoon session. They wouldn't let you sit next to the same people. It all revolved around keeping you off balance and uncomfortable, it sucked so horribly. Shortly after lunch my coworkers got sick fo it too and we all walked out. They were really abusive to us as we left. Check out information on them on the internet. It won't kill you to go, and most people aren't permanently changed by any of it. I would avoid it, though. Generally I think anyone who gets sucked into something like this is pretty dumb.
• Landmark Forum is definitely cultish. Basically, they suck your brains out through a straw and take as much cash from you as they can. My girlfriend's closest friend of many years got involved with Landmark, and basically ended up as a strange, confused, Stepford Wife. Her old personality was totally stripped away, leaving someone who was strangely artificial, manipulative, and who would burst into tears at the drop of a hat for no apparent reason. It seems that she had to appear balanced, happy, and successful, no matter what (and even though she was obviously shattered inside), and that any interaction with any other human being had to have an 'angle' that she was driven to discover and exploit. The husband of a friend also went a similar way, causing a very great deal of distress and a broken marriage. Avoid.
• How about setting up your own wild-eyed, big-hair, Viking-helmeted help group, and then going there and trying to recruit *them* to join your much better, funner, group?
• Yeah, davidmsc has hit it for me. As soon as someone starts talking about the Cure for All My Ills™, I just start laughing. There are no easy answers, and any snake oil salesfolk who believe in them are deluding themselves.
• the people who posted about having been have aptly described what it is like. people react differently but i saw a friend go through this and it was not pretty. self reflection/change can definitely be a good thing. & i think the merits of self change by one self v. self change via a group coaching you might be open to debate, although i personally doubt it. she was involved for months & months and the stuff that i heard, which she seemed to think nothing of, from a distance, seemed very creepy, borderline scientologyish. in any event my point is after breaking free from it all it took her about 2 years to go back to being her normal self viewing life with its natural ups and downs.
• I was going to link to the MeFi thread I created on this topic, until I saw that Mickey had already done so. So I'll just say that I began that thread because a friend of mine was signed up to take their introductory seminar, and I'd heard enough about LEC to be very concerned. I wanted to get some disinterested, intelligent, firsthand accounts/opinions on it. Ask Metafilter didn't exist in those dark days, so I put together an FPP as a way to indirectly solicit opinions. No one complained, fortunately, and I then had a thread of info which I forwarded to my friend. And then I didn't worry about him anymore. He's intelligent, together, and has good judgment. If he was forewarned about possible dangers, I figured he'd come through alright. And he did. He had a positive experience and has taken several seminars from them. I've had to urge him several times not to use the jargon, and to just describe Landmark principles in plain language, but that was the only adverse affect. I wouldn't go, because I know I am way too susceptible to being manipulated and it would screw me up (also I think I could make better use of the money), but that's me. If you have the money, if you are alert for the possible dangers of this kind of thing, and you are reasonably together and intelligent and have good judgment, then you'll probably be fine.
• This group is secretive, litigious and expensive. They claim they're not a cult, but nonetheless use similar techniques to establish a hold over seminar participants. If it walks, swims, eats, quacks and shits like a duck... If you want to invest in self- and spiritual-improvement, take the $500 and travel somewhere you've never been before. Or give it to Habitat for Humanity and spend time helping them build houses. Or save it for retirement and take up yoga. Or take tango lessons with your girlfriend. There are lots of ways to gain a different perspective on life without psychological and financial risk. Ditto what SideDish said. Not only should they not be approaching you at work, that's just crass behavior. imho. If you have the money, if you are alert for the possible dangers of this kind of thing, and you are reasonably together and intelligent and have good judgment, then you'll probably be fine. But if you're all of these things, you probably don't need help from anyone, especially Landmark.
• oh! and i just remembered, my mom took a course but walked out when they shut the doors to the room and announced that NO ONE COULD LEAVE for ANY reason, including bathroom breaks. forget mind control, bladder control is even creeeeeeepier.
• They ask me how my day was going, and I told them that like everyone else, it wasn't going great. you're a smart, well-reasoned, cool guy (or at least you seem like it). you don't need a costly cult, you just need cheering up. here! all better! free of charge! (friends don't let friends take landmark seminars)
• It's time to take a baseball bat to work. (And if "bathroom breaks" aren't aloowed (oh dear!), piss on the leader's shoes!)
• Damn skippy SideDish. I've gone off on people trying to recruit for Landmark, and I'm nice to Mormons.
• All the same, if StoryBored's Viking self-help group (or any other, I'm not particular, so long as it is Viking) shows up at my door, I am totally joining that very instant.
• You don't need these Landmark education people, shawnj. You have us. We are your friends. Your only REAL friends. That's why you spend so much time here. Why don't you go and get some of your co-workers to join us? We can help them with all their problems. BRING THEM TO US SHAWNJ. BRING THEM TO US NOW.
• I've found a lot of personal stories about how awful and cultish Landmark is, but I'm not quite sure how accurate they are. So I ask, my fellow Monkeys, does anyone have any experience with Landmark Forum, and if so, what has been your experience? Me not understand. If you don't trust the personal stories you've found elsewhere, why would you trust ones you find here? Anyway, I join with everyone else in saying Run, and don't look back. And tell those coworkers to take it outside.
• Also, what the quidnunc kid said. *oils cash-extraction machine*
• Mostly because there's a bit of social capital invested in MoFi members. I know who a lot of you are (not in the fist name, last name sense, but as far as relational to MoFi) and a rapport has been established among you. Just like you could put a bit more weight on MoFi members to tell you how to mount a picture on a wall with the least amount of damage or to tell you which parts of their CD collection suck, you can put a little bit more weight on someone's personal experiences here than a geocities site with no context for the author. I also asked this question on my journal, for much the same reason. Did that make any sense?
• JUST BRING US THE VIRGINS, SHAWNJ. BAAL IS A HUNGRY GOD.
• Was RE:Attractive virgins only plz
• Was RE:Attractive virgins only plz
• Landmark may or may not qualify as a "cult" (altho I must say I agreee w/shinything).... I have not indulged, but my chiropractor (a friend, who I respect & admire, wno is intelligent & educated) got all sucked up & tried to get me too also. no thanks... she is normally the most wonderful person, with a GREAT awareness of personal boundaries, and she continued to try to get me to go way past the point of toleration. I had to be REALLY adamant before she stopped asking. I know that is part of the "program" you are supposed to get others to come, which I think is very cultlike, and creepy. I would stay away, you arent a fucking robot needing others to tell you how to live, are you?....ARE YOU??
• Run away! Run away! /Arthur, King of the Britons I could add yet another anecdote of a friend's significant other getting sucked into an expensive sequence of these, turning into a glassy-eyed Stepford Dyke, and subsequently requiring months of detox in order to be a useful human being-- but I won't pile on. Oops, too late.
• I don't have a fist name, shawnj. Am I in the minority here?
• Send me $500 dollars and I'll tell you how to improve your life. This offer is open to anyone, and comes with a full no money back guarantee.
• If you don't control your mind, someone else will. -John Allston Take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Beautiful. ;)
• I've named my right fist Charles in memory of Charles Bronson. My left fist is called Kevin Bacon.
• Landmark/The Forum? Run a loooong, loooong way away. I know a few people that got tied up in this, mostly through the workplace (they like to target HR and managerial types, who then suddenly decide the workers need the company to order them off on Landmark courses). They use many classic cult techniques - sleep deprivation, humiliation - and have a yen for cash that makes the Scientologists look positively moderate.
• no bathroom breaks, dng.
• I'm with storybored. If I was on the same continent I'd be there in a flash. Sounds like fun!
• I had several friends who did the Landmark Forum and who were heavily involved with the company, one of whom was one of the group leaders. I personally have not done the training, for reasons I'll go into later. It's definitely not a cult, and I don't think it's as dangerous as many would have you believe. IIRC, there is a bit of a vetting process for prospective enrollees; they turn away people who are actively in therapy, have too recently completed therapy, or have any other psychological issues. Essentially, it's an outgrowth of assertiveness training. The program is focused on getting people out of "victim" mode and take responsibility for making things better by taking action to change the situation. There can be a profound change in personality in the short term, just because all of that time spent in self-actualization has sort of a drug like effect that makes them all giddy. If you know someone going through the training, you can prolly expect some midnight phone calls from them "completing" with you if there are any unresolved issues in your relationship, which will either be an apology, or some sort of frank discussion in which it is revealed that you pissed them off about something long ago. My issues with the program are the way it's marketed, which is primarily through recent graduates who invite you to the evening gradation gig. You go thinking that you're supporting your friends by attending their graduation ceremony; what ensues is a hard-sell marketing pitch by Landmark employees (and, ultimately, your friends, at least while they're still high on the training) will spend the next hour or so hammering away at you and addressing all of your reasons not to do it. Ultimately I never did it, because the idea that this is something you MUST do as the only way you can achieve happiness in your life is ludicrous, and the constant insistence that I was a lesser person for not doing it turned me off. Plus, after many hours of discussion with these people, I kind of felt I had the gist of what it was all about without spending three days in a room talking about myself. I can't imagine a compelling enough reason for doing the training that would justify my enrollment...all I could bring to the table would be ambivalence. I think it's very useful for some people, a waste of time and money for others. If you're in sales or other career that depends upon pursuading others to do something, you'd probably really benefit from it. If you're someone who doesn't have severe issues with interpersonal relationships, or if you're already good at addressing things through open, honest communication, then there might be a better use of your time and resources..
• they turn away people who are actively in therapy, have too recently completed therapy So they turn away people who are being professionally advised by someone who might caution or dissuade them from further involvement. Is that too cynical a reading? It isn't, as Dr Zira says, an outgrowth of assertiveness courses. It's repackaged version of Werner Erhard's est, ie the distilled wisdom of a used car salesman (really!) who pulled it all out of his arse. Notwithstanding, I do know people who say they've benefitted from this, and I believe them. However, I reckon you could get much the same benefits at much lower risk to your self-esteem and equilibrium by taking the money and spending it on a weekend away by yourself. Skrik, I'm happy not to have a fist name. If you knew what you have to do to get one...
• PS: there is no need to focus on the word "cult". Lots of courses, programmes or organisations use heavy mass persuasion techniques. Sometimes they use them for good, sometimes they use them for bad. You have to decide whether you like your head being messed with by other people, whether you trust them to do it right, and how much money you want to pay for the privilege. I personally prefer not to yield control over my psyche to a bunch of strangers, but whatever rocks your boat.