July 19, 2004

• He definitely needs to apologize for his sexism Not a chance in hell of that happening.
• This is sweet on many levels. Firstly, Ahhnold is becoming The Nuge (or at least following his playbook) and secondly, the girlie man point is excellent. *hands boquet of flowers to minda25, wiggles eyebrows entertainingly*
• His "girly-boy" comments made me picture him with SNL sweat suit on, parodying himself without knowing that that's what he was doing. (Did he think those sketches were some sort of tribute?) Then, I remembered all the reports about sexual harassment that surfaced during the election campaign, and my reaction changed to somewhere between "eeew" and pissed off. You'd think we'd learn not to elect actors as California governors.
• Arnold's about to find out that cheap theatrics don't make much impression on career politicians. They've survived years of Willie Brown's stunts; this is a non-event.
• after we eat we'll go out and get us some plo chops!
• ""Girlie man" is deratory to women"-- Minda25 Seriously? Let's take a second to think of the antonym to the word "manlie"… What is it? Is its "girlie"? Do you think that he used the word "girlie" because it is the opposite of “manlie“ or in his phrase "men", not because he was thinking "girls are bad". Do you think that what he meant was something closer to “men; not acting like men” rather than “girls have cooties and are bad”? If it were coming out of the mouth of Allen Greenspan I might consider it offensive, and strange, but it is coming out of the mouth Arnold. By that I mean; that was not being sexist, I don’t think the insult “girlie-man” is sexist, he’s just rather clueless about how to express himself. Is it really necessary to take offense at the word “girlie” being used in an insult in any way? Are women such a fragile group that the slights breeze from the mouth of Arnold might strike them from the face of the Earth? I don’t think so, and I don’t really think you do either. Viva rationality.
• On the voting process: "You want to know about voting. I'm here to tell you about voting. Imagine you're locked in a huge underground night-club filled with sinners, whores, freaks and unnameable things that rape pitbulls for fun. And you ain't allowed out until you all vote on what you're going to do tonight. You like to put your feet up and watch "Republican Party Reservation". They like to have sex with normal people using knives, guns, and brand new sexual organs you did not even know existed. So you vote for television, and everyone else, as far as your eye can see, votes to fuck you with switchblades. That's voting. You're welcome." Warren Ellis (via Spider Jerusalem)
• No, Testy Cod, if we were fragile, we'd take this as an appropriate comparison. But, gimme a break, "girly man". equates to "someone not as wonderful as a manly man." So "girls" are something they shouldn't be, 'cause it's sort of demeaning? And are all women "girls"? If he'd even said "womanly man" it wouldn't rankle so much (though it would still be problematic). But "girly?" Look, I'm not a dyed in the wool feminist, but an insult is an insult. Would you feel comfortable being called a "girly man." If not, why not? And flagpole. You need to explain that since I didn't get it.
• "They cannot have the guts to come out there in front of you and say, 'I don't want to represent you. I want to represent those special interests: the unions, the trial lawyers.' ... I call them girlie-men. They should get back to the table and they should finish the budget." Allright, I don't see anything wrong with that except the gratuitous girlie-men reference. I live in a state where the lawmakers haven't passed a budget on time in twenty years, and they've done it again this year, going on vacation without getting a damn thing done. It's bad fiscal policy, it royally screws schools trying to figure out their budgets and it's just unfuckingbelievable that these guys can't do their job right, even a single time. I don't know the particulars of what's going on in California, but I sympathize with the stupidity that is state government. With all that said, I agree about Arnold being a parody of himself. But he's been doing that since his first campaign speech ("we need to transform Californeeya into a job-creating machine...")
• I think you're putting a lot more into my argument than I did, but I'll try to clear it up. “…equates to "someone not as wonderful as a manly man."… “ If I called a woman a Boylie-woman I don't think she would consider it a good thing because it would be stating that she had qualities of the opposite sex and of a child. Having too man characteristics of the opposite sex opposite of what someone is, and those of children, is something that is considered shameful. “…If he'd even said "womanly man" it wouldn't rankle so much (though it would still be problematic). But "girly?"…" I don't think it was a relevant issue in his comment considering that he was looking for the antonym to "man" he not only went for the opposite sex he went for the opposite age. “…an insult is an insult. Would you feel comfortable being called a "girly man." If not, why not?… I never said it wasn’t an insult, I said it wasn’t sexist. Unless, of course, you would think that the average women take me saying they had boyish qualities as a compliment. "And are all women "girls"? " No, well some are, but no. I understand this annoyance. I don’t like it when women call me a boy and consider a person referring to me a such to be either out of touch, much older than I am, or immature.
• But, why was he looking for those antonyms? I don't think it was to compliment the legislature.
• Further insight into girly things, such as posh makeup and girly chocolate and such.
• But what about the fact that the legislature is not exclusively male, Testy Cod?
• slights [sic] breeze from the mouth of Arnold No, not the slightest breeze--Gale force hot air powered by hot and cold running bullshit. You'd think we'd learn not to elect actors ... You'd think we'd learn not to elect actors, assholes, liars, and thieves.
• Are you looking for something to be offended by minda25, because you'll always find it. If you want to consider a words like postman and fireman offensive, then sure it's a horribly sexist world. It would be even worse if you didn’t speak English then almost every word would have a gender associated with it and could be considered sexist. Then you couldn't even speak without offending yourself.
• No, Testy Cod, I'm not looking for something to be offended by. I do understand as how I might have come across that way, though. Really, my reasons for posting this were that the CA governor threw a hissy fit, and people were taking the attention off of that and onto an offensive remark. The degree of how offensive it was is insignificant compared to the fact that the governor can't control himself. I'm not offended by the fact that he seems to think there are no women in our legislature, I'm offended by the fact that he's such an asshat.
• Well you're definitely right about that. The indulgences the press granted him are the only reason he got elected. I'm sure they'll be granting him those for some time to come.
• ....consider a words like postman and fireman... Seems if people were really interested in doing away with sexist usages, they might try devising more gender-neutral terms -- like letter-bearer or parcel-toter or some such term. Fireman is a kind of silly word, anyway -- wot does it sound like? Like a man made of fire, or who's doing the firing. Neither of which is very helpful. Fire-quencher would be more apt in terms of describing the job. And don't say this would take time to get used to. It'll take longer if people don't make a start.
• Oh fuck that. There's too much political correctness as it is. Instead of changing the words we use, lets change the way we interpret words. We understand symbols to be 'imbued' with some kind of polarity, as if they are alive, or have a 'spook' in them. It's not an issue of sexist terminology, it's an issue of human beings mistaking symbols for the things they symbolise.
• Ach, it's daft -- people are always changing the way they interpret words, and just look where that's got us, Nostril. In one context a word or a phrase means this, in another it means that, so that context always affects/defines any given meaning. At that, though, I'd rather deal in symbols than have to wrestle with the implications of those synaptic gaps between the axions (where I suspect all the so-called common sense of a non-sapient species seems to leak away).
• it's an issue of human beings mistaking symbols for the things they symbolise. Well, there goes the economy. /semiologue
• Yes, "girly-man" is sexist. It isn't blatant, "go in the kitchen and knit me a sweater" sexist but it is. In American society the best thing one can be is a man. If you want to insult a man you say, "stop being such a girl!" but it is rare to tell a woman, "stop being such a man!" and I'm not entirely sure what that even means. Certainly, there is a risk for women to be "too" manly and to be called things, but a woman can be a lot more manly than a man can be womanly. Again, it isn't blatant, and since I'm spending my summer taking German, I'm well aware that other languages have gendered nouns. However, to suggest that this makes it acceptable is similar to saying, "Hey I only killed one person, that guy killed five!" It is not really a matter of political correctness because while the spelling and pronounciation of words are arbitrary, their use is not. It is more than the opposite of man is woman, because it takes the next step and says not only that if you are the opposite it is bad, but that being a man is better than being a woman. A similar situation happened when a co-worker was trying to describe a customer to me. I thought that he was refering to an African-American man but he responded, "No he was American" indicating that he was white. Now was my co-worker a racist? No, I don't have any reason to think that. However, this has happened more than once and it is symbolic of the thought processes of some people, just as calling someone a girl is symbolic of their opinion of the place women occupy in American society.
• In both cases, Schwarzenegger was referring to television programs to provide for communicative touchpoints for his speech; providing touchpoints such as these is a very common speechmaking tool, designed to lay a framework of shared experience with an audience that will ultimately predispose them toward your point of view. The "girlie-man" quote is, notably, from a (at the time) popular comedic parody of himself. While Schwarzenegger may or may not be a sexist, it does his detractors no favors to respond to these rather harmless (and overtly populist) jibes like a bunch of pinched-bottom verbal teetotallers. A better response would have been something along the lines of "well, this budget is too 'pumped up,' so we girlie-men have to trim a bit of the steroidal inflation. That takes time, and we are here to protect Sarah Conner - and all California citizens - from the Terminator's shotgun approach to governing." Or something like that. It's too early in the morning for me to be writing response cards for the California Democratic Caucus :)
• I'm offended by the fact that he's such an asshat. minda25, I hate to break it to you, but if you get offended by asshat politicians, you are in for a long and highly offended life.
• While Schwarzenegger may or may not be a sexist Ha!
• It's derogatory to girlie men is what it is. (See pictures in profile)
• Democrats: Schwarzenegger's "girlie-men" comment sexist
• and homophobic.
• Isn't decrying the phrase "girlie-men" as sexist (and homophobic) tacitly agreeing that accusing a man of being womanly is an insult? And isn't attacking the language that Scharzenegger uses (and has consistently used since he campaigned for governor, and for which he has constantly been criticized as sexist, etc) rather than the contents of the bill they are delaying vote on tacitly acknowledging that they haven't any real reason other than purely political sport for doing so? And doesn't this make them, at least somewhat, look like humorless NewSpeak'ers? And could not Schwarzenegger's refusal to apologize be interpreted (perhaps misinterpreted, but still) as a stance for the principle of free speech and a reaffirmation of his "say what I think and take no prisoners" style which helped him win the election in the first place? This is not the way to attack Schwarzenegger.
• Jesus christ will you girlie men give it up??
• I always tought girly referred to some particular kind of women, specifically the weak, men dependent, unable to make their mind, and easily ofended by rudeness kind of women. In that sense girlie is both an insult both for men and women but it's not sexist. It's more of a insulting reference to pre-feminism values. And I dislike girlie women.
• Isn't decrying the phrase "girlie-men" as sexist (and homophobic) tacitly agreeing that accusing a man of being womanly is an insult? It would if the phrase was found in the vacuum of space - but it's the context that it's used in that implies sexism.
• Fireman is a kind of silly word, anyway -- wot does it sound like? Like a man made of fire, or who's doing the firing. Neither of which is very helpful. Fire-quencher would be more apt in terms of describing the job. Using 'fire-fighter' as a non-gender specific term for this noble service is fairly common, in the UK at least.
• what's the opposite of a girlie woman?
• in the context I put it, anything else.
• In other news, Austria declares itself the 51st state.
• if they don't have the guts, I call them girlie men. Yeah women don't have the guts. Heh. So flighty, so useless. Except for . . y'know. /sarcasm
• Think you meant "If they don't do what I want and do it damn quick, I call them 'girly-men'." Pah! Pfui! Pthththth!=bronx cheer Re firefighter -- reminds me of guys duelling with flamethrowers.
• This is not the way to attack Schwarzenegger. I agree. Instead, I recommend sneaking up behind him and snipping his hamstrings.
• So the bodybuilder-philandering-action-star isn't the best governor ever? Who woulda thunk it? As for "girly-men", it's a sound bite from a parody, let it slide. The faux media outrage at every perceived slight is getting very tired, and very boy-who-cried-wolf. If I were picking my hill to die on, "girly-man" wouldn't be it. ...and minda25, which is it? Outrageous sexism or "durn funny"? Can't have your cake and eat it too, as it were.
• I see I need to re-state my original feelings on this whole thing: I think his use of "girlie men" is sexist because there are women in the legislature, and his comment points out the fact that he doesn't think that way. I also think that, while it's sexist, it's really not too important, when you look at the big picture. I believe the Blonde Star thing is also sexist, but because it's a joke, I laugh. There are jokes about nearly every kind of person to be found on the face of the planet. There are dead baby jokes and dead puppy jokes, too. If I hear one, I don't get offended, but my perspective of the person who's telling the joke changes. My viewpoint, from the very beginning of this post, is that while his remark was sexist, it was beside the point. The point is that his unacceptable outburst of preschool-like fury and name-calling is being ignored because of that particular sexist remark. I have to point out, now that I've had to defend myself, AGAIN, that this all was written up there at the very top of the page.
• *pulls minda's leg*
• *smiles sheepishly, cracks open a Bud and offers it to Wolof*
• *hopes it is a clucurrans bud* Minda, to commence: the man's not an un-pig. [a double negative.] Meaning he's a pig altogether, ye see. [A double negative in Gael-think equals a positive. In spades.]
• Your search - clucurrans bud - did not match any documents. *cries, refuses to pass bad legislation*
• no ridiculous blink-and-you'll-miss-it political controversy is too trivial to make a buck off