July 01, 2004

• I'm no fan of FOTF, and this doesn't strike me as particularly excellent behaviour. So much for the high ground...
• I read some of the comments in the blog and am amazed by all the tit-for-tat b.s. going on over there. OK, not amazed, but really pissed. No, when people camped out on Karl Rove's lawn, that wasn't right. Nor when they did it to Cheney, or even Laura Miller (mayor of Dallas). Neither is sending out Michael Moore's home address. The thing conservatives and liberals forget is that asshattery occurs on both sides of the fence. And if either side wants to elevate the dialogue past all this stupid what-we're-doing-is-justified-because-you-did-it-too horsecrap, then someone has to decide not to do it in the first place. So, whatever your politics, remember, don't be an asshat. It doesn't help the situation and in the end, it makes whatever side you're on just a little bit worse.
• So much for the high ground... I don't think James Dobson of FOTF cares about the highground. I think he's interested in power. One way to do that is by whipping people into a frenzy.
• Monkeyfilter: remember, don't be an asshat. This is soooo wrong. Now thousands of nutjobs know where to find him (no, I'm not saying that all FotFers are nutjobs, but they've got to have their share of human psychological jetsam). I'd be less surprised if this were coming from some lone asshat with a grudge, but an organization should know better than this. I doubt Dobson would want to fear for his life over some crap like this.
• I'm not saying that all FotFers are nutjobs Their leader is certainly someone who you can file under religious supremacists.
• MonkeyFilter: they've got to have their share of human psychological jetsam.
• Is it shameful to admit that I was hoping pete would do precisely that?
• The thing conservatives and liberals forget is that asshattery occurs on both sides of the fence. And if either side wants to elevate the dialogue past all this stupid what-we're-doing-is-justified-because-you-did-it-too horsecrap, then someone has to decide not to do it in the first place. Well said.
• The thing conservatives and liberals forget is that asshattery occurs on both sides of the fence. And if either side wants to elevate the dialogue past all this stupid what-we're-doing-is-justified-because-you-did-it-too horsecrap, then someone has to decide not to do it in the first place. Liberals don't kill abortion clinic workers or have connections to white supremacist groups or nazis. And people are worried about the danger Michael Moore is to America. Gimme a fucking break.
• Liberals do occasionally murder politicians, though.
• Please find an example in the U.S.A., D.N.G... In the Netherlands, the Liberals ARE the Conservatives... or something like that...
• Are you lowering the actions of racists and Nazis to asshattery, Sully? Or are you equating conservativism to the two?
• Sorry, that should be "mere asshattery."
• I would say that he's saying that people who associate with racists and Nazis are asshats, and that of people in political parties who are associated with them, they tend to be in the Republican party.
• So, fringe liberals that associated themselves with, or supported bloody communist or populist regimes and movements are any less asshats than fringe conservatives associated with neonazism or fascism?
• What Zemat said. Political extremists are fuckers, whether I lean in their direction or not.
• Sullivan: Past a certain (admittedly) ill-defined point, it's all asshattery - just to a different degree. I most certainly do not equate the murder and racist association with camping out. But I will say that what passes for acceptable political discourse in this country is being conducted by a bunch of loudmouthed jerkwads and their ideas are getting lost in the noise of a million asshats farting around doing stupid crap. It pisses me off to no end. I don't mind debating ideas with a conservative, but only so long as it sticks to the merits of the ideas. Yes, I get a short-lived visceral thrill every time someone pulls a dirty on a Republican. That doesn't mean it's right. Just means that I keep forgetting we're supposed to be better than that.
• Zemat:Fringe conservatives like the former chairman of the Republican party or the current governer of California? Obviously, these liberals would be just as much asshats as the asshat Republicans. However, I can't think of any in recent times; if you could enlighten me, that'd be good. I think that the difference is, whereas the American right wing tends to be, well, right wing, the left wing tends to be more centrist. So there's more political fresh air between the party's core and its particular wing's extreme.
• Well, I can't come up with recent examples of the caliber you mention. To be honest, I agree with you BBF. Democrats stand on better ground this days than republicans. There are fringe liberals, but they are the minority compared to fringe conservatives right now, at least in the US. Still drivingmenuts words stand. That there's more aggressive asshatery on the right doesn't mean the left should tolerate or encourage asshatery of their own, no matter how inoffensive it may seem. And neither liberals nor conservatives have to be fringe to be asshats. It just takes a little bit of unwillingness to reason with the other side.
• political extremists are fuckers, whether I lean in their direction or not. All extremists are fuckers. Nothing's that important.
• What do you all mean by extremist? This term is often thrown around as if the 'centre' is some magical place where you can hide and always be soothed that your actions are correct. Given that the positions of the 'centre' on numerous issues has changed throughout history, I find this unconvincing. There are people who are 'centrists' who ultimately share similar values with regards to authoritarianism with 'Left' and 'Right'. I also find the binary axis model of politics pretty unconvincing, especially when your Left, would probably be centrist in Europe and in the US (which seems to be where most people here are from) really only has two political parties, which seem to have a great deal of overlap and are 'parties' often in name only.
• Sign me on as another conservative that deplores the release of Mr. Moore's home address. He deserves his privacy as much as the rest of us. as for asshats on the left - and this is just an observation, not an indictment - I might forward the example of the violent WTO protestors, segments of PETA, and ELF.
• Fes, are PETA really 'left'? Aren't they moderate animal rightists, with slightly confronting advertising? Do they have anything to say about any other issue beyond animals? Single issue people are often quite diverse on other matters, as you will often see in Australia with regard to things with 'built heritage', or even things like public health, where you sometimes will have conservative Catholics agreeing with anarchists. There are even Nazis or fascists who are animal rights advocates (though often for different reasons), as seen in the early years of the Greens in Germany.
• I would consider as an extremist anyone who carries his/her ideology (leftist, centrist, rightist) to the logical extreme regardless of consecuences. Asshatism is inclusive. A perfect example of leftist extremism are The Weathermen. Disbanded decades back for good.
• Ok Zemat, I think I kind of understand. You are talking about using physical violence to achieve political aims? The Weathermen were perfectly authoritarian even without their use of bombs and guns. Their sexual and organisational politics were not much better than their 'opponents'. I find it useful to think about what people prioritise with their 'politics'. That at least opens up at least some chance for thinking about these things beyond these shorthand terms that we all use.
• dj, I'm thinking of the operations where test animals in laboratories are released and records/equipment/whatnot destroyed. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that those kinds of things were Peta related. If I'm wrong, I retract that one.
• further, as I understand it, modern animal rights issues tend to be the purview of the left. Again, I could be wrong, and if I am I gladly retract the statement.
• Fes I didn't think that PETA did direct action stuff like that, but I too could be mistaken. I always thought of them as animal rights via TV and postcards, mainly for the materially well-off. ELF are indeed a different story and there seems to be quite a bit of disagreement amongst people concerned about the treatment of animals about their tactics and their interaction with other 'activists'.
• I long for the day when someone here will call me a liberal asshat.
• Ok Zemat, I think I kind of understand. You are talking about using physical violence to achieve political aims? Sort of. Rereading my comment, it doesn't make very much sense for me either. What I tried to say is that any group with authoritative inclinations is extreme in the sense that only their ideas and no other's are to be considered, and they are willing to enforce those ideas by any means. More definitions as I undestand them: - Leftism: socialistic policies. - Rightism: capitalistic/libertarian policies. - Liberal: Throw away ideas from the past that are harmful. Tradition is bad. - Conservative: Some Ideas from the past work fine. No need to change them. Tradition is good. When I talk of liberals I (wrongfully) refer to leftists. That's because the liberalism is often associated with leftism. Same mistake I make with Conservatives. But pairs Leftism/Liberal Rightism/Conservative shouldn't be the rule. That's why I like the political compass even if it isn't near perfect.
• bernockle, you liberal asshat!!
• That kind of made me feel tingly.
• So what's Mr Moore's address, then?
• ELF are indeed a different story and there seems to be quite a bit of disagreement amongst people concerned about the treatment of animals about their tactics and their interaction with other 'activists'. I have read statements made both by ALF/ELF activists and, more than anything, they seem to be a bunch of misanthropic, civilization haters. Some, if not most of them, long to bring civilization down and kill most humans. They don't acknowledge it because of the cheer irrationaly of it. But you can feel the vibe in their rethoric and they way they express themselves about other humans. I wouldn't regard them to be political in any sense.
• In the case of Greenpeace, they seem to be left oriented, and some of their members (a minority) are clear asshats. But still the organization as a whole seems rational and goodwilled. I support most, but not all of their causes.
• I support sailor mongering.
• I didn't think that PETA did direct action stuff like that, but I too could be mistaken. I always thought of them as animal rights via TV and postcards, mainly for the materially well-off. PETA may not do direct action stuff the way ALF and SHAC do, but they certainly don't disavow it. Links here, here, here and here.
• For those looking for a more disinterested outlook on PETA, wikipedia provides a pretty comprehensive, warts and all entry.
• What do you all mean by extremist? This term is often thrown around as if the 'centre' is some magical place where you can hide and always be soothed that your actions are correct. No, that's not what I meant at all. I think I'm firmly in liberal territory. I'm not saying centrism or bust. By extremism, I'm talking about going far enough to the outside flank of your party that you find yourself falling down the rabbit-hole and landing 100 leagues from Realityville. Yeah, that's a crap definition, but it's hard to lay down a firm border when you're dealing with a topic that's entirely a question of degrees. Consider Pat Buchanan. I'd consider him a right-wing extremist. For a liberal example, I can offer a dear friend of mine (whom none of you know, but is a wonderful woman), who actually criticized Michael Moore's film for "pulling punches." Okay, if you think Michael Moore's a centrist, it's fair to say you're way outside the boundaries of mainstream liberalism. And I'll add one more arguable criterion: letting your ideology speak for you, letting it determine your beliefs and actions with little to no regard for the facts in front of you. Like, say, the President.
• Are you lowering the actions of racists and Nazis to asshattery, Sully? Or are you equating conservativism to the two? I'm saying that the right isn't willing to condem certain fringe groups. It took serious lobbying to make John Ashcroft label people who attack abortion clinics as terrorists. Also, the right has pandered to white supremist groups. It certainly helped Haley Barbour become governor of Mississippi.
• PETA are extremists. Nonviolent, but extremist, nonetheless. I happen to like meat and think attacking people with spray paint is wrong. Out of interest: has anyone from PETA received an asswhooping for their spray paint stunts?
• Sen. Robert 'KKK' Byrd (D-WV)
• It seems some idiot posted James Dobson's address in the comments section of Atrios's blog. Atrios wisely deleted the whole comment thread and told his readers that would not be tolerated.