June 26, 2004

• I always got a sick feeling in my stomach when hardcore right-wingers suddenly fell in love with Cosby after the news coverage of this speech.
• Good lord. Can't *anyone* just say what they think and stick by it?
• It sounded to me like he was sticking by it. I thought his original intent was to (however harshly) say "hey, there's a problem here, you're not trying anymore," and that was what I got out of this thing. He didn't backtrack. IMHO, the opening line of this post seemed very incendiary and off-putting. I regarded it as a smaller note in the interview, myself, but in the context of this post it sounds like Cosby said "hey, I didn't really mean that, the white man is out to get me!" which is not inline with the interview.
• Cosby is so full of shit.
• He's not funny, either.
• The language issue is and has been a concern of mine for a while. He touches on it, but I think that he could have explained it a bit further. There is absolutely nothing wrong with devising a dialect. Girls do it in junior high and high school. Fraternities and sororities do it extensively. I know that my college friends and I used made-up words and phrases all the time. The difference is that we knew that there is standard business American English which is taught in school and featured on most television shows, and then there is our little dialect. We were fluent in both. The current problem for a lot of young people now is that they cannot speak the standard business American English. They are only able to speak their dialect. I see this in court every day. Someone will be standing in front of a judge who has the power to sentence that person to significant time in prison, and the person will be saying, "I knows my record ain't good..." That person would not be speaking his dialect in court if he knew any other way. He does not. And there are many, many people like that. They will have enormous difficulty obtaining employment in our society.
• OK, I'm confused. About both the opening line (maroon colored) part of the post, the text that followed, and all the subsequent comments. Cosby: "It was the white man who got the word from somebody who was there, who called the white man, who put it in the white paper, which is called the Washington Post." This doesn't seem representative of the linked article also what mrg said It is late and the weekend, my BAL is fairly high so I'm reading with a grain or two of Alka Seltzer. but. Some of father Huxtable's pronouncements I agree with, some I don't. But, "Cosby is so full of shit" seems an oversimplification. His answers seem considered. If there is a problem that I have with his responses it is that he is what I'll call a true believer: He thinks that just because it worked for him it will work for everyone. Not to pick a fight with you Nostrildamus (considering my statement above) ...........but "Bill Cosby Himself" is, the funniest stand up movie ever.
• I just never dug his style, vapidave, but I understand that comedy is a personal taste. I tend to spew before I chew. Apologies. I just always picked up an overly 'false' vibe from the guy, I don't know what it is. Turns me off. Probly just me.
• "but I understand that comedy is a personal taste" Right that. Nothing to apologize for. Perhaps our differing take comes from I'm here and you are there. Or I'm there and you are here. Grad Students? Nietzchean Philosophers? Titor....er...people? help
• I want more voices in the home challenging the child to not just stay in school, 'cause I've always been against saying to children,
• Here's a commentary on the alleged "shock" and "controversy" over his initial speech (via MeFi).
• Thanks for the Prof. West link, scartol: he's awesome.
• I've had the pleasure and the privilege to meet and speak to both Cosby and West at various points in my life and yeah, they're both right. Many African Americans just aren't trying anymore. It's too easy to blame someone else for our problems. Thing is, that attitude knows no color or creed and can be found in pretty much every facet of American culture these days. Lots of people blaming someone else for their problems and not stepping up to take some responsibility for their actions or lack thereof. And I can agree with you on the WEB over booker T as for the rest of where I'm at, it's over there with Chuck D. And the coke? Old Cosby news. He used to be their spokesguy. Quoth Richard Pryor on his advice to Eddie Murphy on how to deal with the 'Cos, "Tell Bill I said, 'have a Coke and a smile and shut the fuck up!'"
• A nice take-away quote from M.C.Tool's link: [T]he power of the PC Police is grossly overestimated. Conservative talk-meisters and curmudgeons make good livings exaggerating the omnipotence and silliness of the virtucrats.
• I think Cosby is right on here. I also also think it's hard to realize just what you are capable of, especially in our culture. It seems we are trapped in our own mediocrity. Trapped by obesity and the jabbering of the television. Trapped by expectations, ones that we hold and that others hold towards up. I mean fuck, people are comfortable with bush because he *doesn't* strive to be an intelectual, he doesn't work to trancend what he is capable of-Thats a selling point! What does it take to make a person sit up and realize that they are capable of moving a mountain? What does it take to realize that the capacity for thought is infinite? And therefore the capacity for action must be described accordingly. I don't think that this problem is exclusively a black problem, however black folks end up dealing with the brunt of it. Cosby is right, we all have to hold up our end of the bargain, we all have to do our best. It's possible.
• MonkeyFilter: exaggerating the omnipotence and silliness of the virtucrats.
• Man, this discussion is so much better than the MeFi equivalent. I'd just like to thank you guys for being MoFites.
• I'd just like to point out that grammatically, there is no real rule against a split infinitive. It's just a convention. Look it up, mans. You can boldly go where no one has gone before if you want. There's no hard & fast gramma.. oh to hell with it, pass me a beer. Languageface.. I love you. Now send me money. Or beer.
• languagehat, please share with us the MeFi experience. I have trouble finding the thread.
• I think this is it.
• I'm gonna rerail a derail and note that the reason I led with the quote that I chose was that it seemed somewhat disingenuous. Here's the context: Tavis: So, Mr. C, is it--I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this. Is it your right or your responsibility to check black folk, as it were, when you feel they need to be checked? Have you earned that right, or is it a responsibility that you've inherited? Cosby: You all are late. I said this at Howard University 6 years ago. I've said it in the company of audiences--African American audiences. Tavis: So why'd it get picked up now? Was it the event? Cosby: It was the white man who got the word from somebody who was there, who called the white man, who put it in the white paper, which is called the Washington Post. And from that, they left out Mr. Cosby saying 50%. They left out the part about fathering, and they certainly left out “We've got to take back the neighborhood and the responsibility--take it back.” Then they added something that I think was incorrect, that the people came out stone-faced, stunned. I don't think they were. And I heard the audience a couple of times saying, “yes,” people applauding. Cosby's line of thinking, it seems to me, is that the reason his words incited a bit of a shitstorm is that the "white press" made a big deal out of something that the "black folk" all found entirely reasonable and that if everybody had just handled the problem in-house, that there wouldn't have been such a reaction. That sort of thinking is regressive and betrays a distinct lack of ability to take responsibility for one's actions. Also, this is an old and lame "shoe-on-the-other-foot" method of debating, but if Trent Lott had commented that the response to his comments were motivated by "black people who called their black friends and got it on the black news, which is BET".... Having said all that, anything that gets people discussing issues of race and presumptions of what is and is not acceptable to discuss in public is okay with me. Furthermore, Coz gets a lotta slack after having to cope with the violent death of his son Ennis. That no one references Coz's experiences with violence as being a likely reference point for his anger with what he sees as a lax attitude toward thug-chic is a bit astounding. Oh and nostril, early coz is funny as hell. Try the famous Noah bit on me, then tell me you're not feeling it.
• Well, that takes me way the hell back. "There are twenty-three million karate schools... in Greenwich Village." /from childhood memory
• It strikes me that one reason for our seeming rationality on MoFi is that we have fewer voices here. In the MeFi thread, with so many people chiming in, it was really difficult to see how the opinions coalesced. It's easier to do that here. Something to think about? On the other hand, I think Cosby has more than a point. I've seen children and grownups who think it's just ok to talk throughout sessions meant to teach them something important, that would benefit them in the future. In most cases, they either assumed that it would be boring before coming into the classes, or that it was somehow cool to not have to learn new skills. I can't help but think of it as a will to fail. If "I" don't really try, then "I" can't be blamed. My nephew was one of those until he bucked up against tests which would allow him to go into high school, at which point he found that he could learn the basics, since staying in 8th grade would have been really embarassing. This isn't just a black/white issue. Schools (at least in my neighborhood) seem to not be able to engage children. There are some kids who get turned on to learning, but I think they're a minority, and they seem to do it on their own, or with help from someone in their family. Or, maybe one very special teacher. I agree with Cosby in that inner-city kids, no matter what color, probably don't have access to a teacher or family member who can help them get past the issues of poverty, and that there is a lack of focus on education coming from their parents, who didn't get much. But, that applies to lots of kids, not just blacks, or just inner city kids. I can sympatize with Cosby's criticism of the state of education today, and I certainly think the the marginalized kids coming out into the wider society will find it pretty much impossible to find well paying jobs. I can only hope that they'll be able to catch up on their own. And, yeah, there may be places where non-standard English can get one on the right track, but , in general, it won't. You can complain about it all you want, but the fact is that choosing Ebonics, or other argots, in your business environmet will sink you since people have to talk to the folks who make decisions, and they don't recognize your patois. So, refuse to conform and take the consequesces, or conform and give yourself a chance to get ahead, if you want to move up from wherever you are, is my advice the disenfranchised.
• Spelling optional.
• It seems to me that there are flaws on all sides. First of all: education systems are wrapped up in examinations, out of school tutoring, and a rigid mark systems often based on very abstract grounds. I don't think poor people relate to this: in fact, I don't think anybody can relate to it, but the wealthy, established members of society push themselves into this academic precipice and through calm, money, dedication and more money they get the A+. This system exists because it is propped up those whose success resulted from it. No matter the race, school systems do not provide freedom for children to develop. Instead they seem to tie students more and more to their parents: students do homework for their parents, they do well in school for their parents. It's a system that does not encourage change, but stagnation. The uneducated members of society are not being given a chance because schooling has become so distant from a practical, industrial society. People from the outside of modern education do not understand what it involves: it just doesn't make sense. The more controversial side of this issue is the lack of effort among certain groups of individuals: yes they may be poor and have a family background which does not recognize illogical academics: but that doesn't mean they shouldn't. Education is still free in the USA, if an individual can work hard enough they can easily move up from their roots. Beyond education: if they can't speak English clearly and are unable to explain concepts then they are not going to make money (the other indicator of success, other than lettergrades). The language of business is practical and clear. I'm not talking about your uncle's friend hiring you into his corporation: I mean real business: selling things that people need and want. Despite corporate interests and corruption, the world revolves around money, and an unprofitable and aimless corporation will not last forever. If academic success is not their principal interest: invent and build. Look at ways in which things can be improved. Do a better job! Every member of society should also be a careful consumer: if you want a fair society, give your money to people who will be fair with it. This involves voting, avoiding big corporations no longer run by their founders, and buying products based on quality, not their advertising. Northern Europeans and Africans were unable to communicate for the majority of human history. Now, here in North America we have a society which works some of the time: this is a great step forward - nevertheless there is still work for both sides.
• Gratuitous apology from me: "I'm gonna rerail a derail and note that the reason I led with the quote that I chose was that it seemed somewhat disingenuous. posted by forksclovetofu at 12:08AM UTC on June 27 My detectors are all broken, I'm sorry. I did say "OK, I'm confused...
• Apology unnecessary, vapid. It's worth defending, but I mighta gotten a little prickly if someone had led with that myself.
• One of my old philosophy professors taught a survey course in western civ & culture for a while in NYC -- overwhelmingly "minority" student body. Other teachers in the department had turned the course into a joke: one of them gave the students an assignment to find an advertisement that they thought best described themselves (shudder). But he's really damn hard-headed, and insisted on teaching them the classics: Plato, Shakespeare, etc. One semester the students staged a walk-out in protest. They couldn't believe that he was being so hard on them, compared to their other lightweight classes. Next class session, they spent the whole period discussing the problem. He pointed out that he was working them because he respected them, that other professors didn't because they didn't think the students could handle the work. The result was that the students realized that it was a question of respect, which challenged them to work. A few even discovered a love of philosophy in the process and went on to pursue doctorates. (He used to have a paper about this online, but it's gone now.) Honestly, I think the kind of defeatism these other instructors showed is part of the problem. So is lack of good parenting. If your parents aren't taking an interest in your education, why should you? Mine were a crucial part of the process. And, sadly, the system needs revamping too. It's damn hard to fire a bad teacher in this country for anything short of criminal behavior, and the bad teachers usually get shuffled around to the worst schools (i.e., those schools who need good teachers the most). For those good teachers at needy schools, it must often seem like every day brings yet another Sisyphean effort. These teachers have to be everything to their students -- teacher, parent, disciplinarian, and they have to try to earn their respect and attention.
• He sounds like an excellent teacher, middleclasstool. I'm all for teaching people things more related to their interests, but never for dumbing things down. They say that expectation is an important factor in how well students do - when they are expected to perform at a high level, they find that they actually can do this. But you're right about the system - the worst teachers often end up in the places where good teachers are most needed. This is probably true the world over, but it's more difficult in systems where there are very divided school districts and pay differentials. It's apparently even worse with programs like Teach for America. I've been reading about it, and had a friend have a traumatic experience in it. They take these naive, utterly inexperienced young people, and not only put them in the very worst schools, but with the worst classes in the school. The person I knew was no suburban violet, but a tough Georgian farm girl, and she still found it impossible (She had children with special needs, and no assistance). They should be using the less experienced and talented to fill up places in less difficult schools, freeing the best to work in the most challenging places. But I don't know if the will is there, even from dedicated teachers.
• My best friend during my first few years in NYC was a guy who grew up in the worst part of Bed-Stuy during the '60s and '70s. By the time I met him he was the best-read person I knew; he lent me his copies of 18th-century novels I'd never even heard of. But the only reason he made it through school (where anyone who studied was accused of "acting white") was that his father, who ran a numbers joint and was hardly ever around the house, gave him holy hell if he ever caught him on the street during school hours (and if you ever met his father, who was known as "Big Black," you definitely wouldn't want him giving you holy hell). I don't know what the moral is, or what the solution is, but it's a sad situation.