June 23, 2004

• What's his secret weapon?
• I thought it was really good. And very funny. I went to see it with my roommate, who was one of the popular kids in high school, but she thought it was great too. Which I resented. I was surprised that it didn't receive better reviews from the critics.
• I also thought the titles were brilliant. They stand out in my mind, top 25, easily.
• It isn't in really wide release yet. I think it is still just in large markets. It opens "at theaters everywhere" [except really small towns] this Friday. It is on my list of movies to see.
• Not to be a grump, but this isn't PopCultureFilter. We don't have to talk about every movie that comes out.
• Maybe we should all just stop talking completely and utterly, eh "certainsome1"? What a Zen-like community this would become!
• SaP: that was my point, exactly. how astute of you. clever monkey.
• At least no one would bitch if there weren't any threads to comment in.
• It is a really sweet and fun movie. A friend of mine had a 'Vote for Pedro' T-Shirt and I didn't know what it meant, but after seeing the movie I want one too!
• God those shirts are going for more than $50 on ebay.
• i object on the grounds the director is 24 years old.
• Well, I agree that every movie made should not be discussed here. However, I think that this movie IS a story. It's not a slick studio production with marketing tie-ins to McDonalds or Burger King. It was written and directed by a relatively young movie maker and taken to Sundance, where it received acclaim (and a big time distributor). I guess getting a snarky comment on my first post makes me officially part of the club, eh?
• Well, I don't think it's inappropriate material for a FPP, but it might have had a better reception if you had encouraged a discussion about the subtext--high school, popularity, and awkwardness. I, and it seems like all those who liked or "got" this movie, can relate to being a dweeb in high school. It's not really a surprise then that this movie resonates with me and my friends, as we're all the same age as the director. Which is why I was slightly perturbed that the roommate liked it. She *is* Summer. Or was. Blonde, blue eyes, cheerleader, homecoming queen, etc. I loved it because it was taking what I remember to be an terribly awkward time in my life, and celebrating it for what it was. Not something that we would grow out of and become cool hip adults in spite of, but something that is awesome on it's own. So we reclaimed that, but she, who did the laughing from the cool kids table, gets to laugh at it again? Bah.
• "its," not "it's"... arrrghh!
• I don't think you should discuss films on here until they've been released in Britain. So, this should be deleted and reposted sometime in 2009.
• I'm with dng. stop taunting me! I want to laugh at how I was then too. Dagnabit.
• I haven't seen it, but the previews I've read gave me a vaguely icky feeling. I wasn't terribly fond of Rushmore, either, so maybe something in my Nerd Sense(tm) is lacking. I'll bite as far as the meta-topic goes. For a while, right after high school, I was all over the concepts of Outsider As Commentator and Resisting The Machine and You Sheep Know Nothing About Real Life. I started out on the web with this cute and now embarrassing little Geocities shrine to We Never Fit In But We're Great People, Dammit. I collected lists of movies about People Like Us. Rushmore, Welcome to the Dollhouse, etc. But over time I lost interest. I can't believe anymore that a person automatically has a deeper sense of the reality of life or society just because they didn't fit in with their classmates. To me it has a similar ring to "if you have disabilities/a terminal disease, it means you are a Wise Soul who can Teach Others About Life." It's a stereotype. The "sheep"/alpha-bitches/clique-fiends are human too. Stereotyping them is no better than their stereotyping me (basic nerd 101, + fantasy books, video games and anime, - D&D and Trek) as a mouth-breathing troglodyte with no grasp of reality. I was maladjusted and did stupid things as a misfit teen, and some of those things I believed so fervently (they're all idiots with no souls! I'm right, I'm always right, they'll see!) turned out to be wrong. So I guess I just don't have the heart to get into that concept anymore, from any side. I'd rather stop thinking about the grave injustices of high school and just get on with life. That, and, well, this may be the first time I've heard of a film director being younger than me, and I'm a bit freaked out. But that's another story.
• You'll get used to it Wurwilf. By the time you hit your thirtysomethings, everyone doing interesting creative things will be younger than you. :)
• Well, that takes the pressure off, at least.
• Hey Wurwilf, I definitely understand what you're saying, though I don't think that's what this movie was about. And I don't think any of the dorks I knew in high school thought they were better than anyone else, or had a clearer grasp of reality than the "jocks." There have, and will always be, pressure to fit in; there will always be people on the margins, who don't want to, or can't be cool. The realization when you're older is that being popular in high school isn't terribly important in the grand scheme of things. I'm sorry that your awkward stage isn't something you care to think about anymore, in any capacity--but I know that too. I used to be very religious, and I now wince when I encounter artifacts from that time in my life. Your adolescent reaction of "I'm better than those jerks" sounds like a reasonable one--when the whole world is telling you that you don't belong, what do you do? Tell yourself that they're wrong. And they are. But I think what you're criticizing about these types of movies, is that response. That the popular kids are saying "you suck," and the nerds realizing (maybe right then, maybe later as adults) that, no, we don't.
• But I also had it relatively easy in high school. We were ALL nerds. Seriously. The favored student body past time was calculating our GPA's to three decimal places and comparing. *pushes up horn-rim glases*
• Your adolescent reaction of "I'm better than those jerks" sounds like a reasonable one--when the whole world is telling you that you don't belong, what do you do? Tell yourself that they're wrong. And they are. I have to respectfully disagree; I don't think I'm inherently better than anyone else, particularly because of something as ephemeral as the clothes I wear or the music I listen to. I always wonder why it's okay to judge yourself as superior because of your tastes on the outside of the mainstream, but it's evil to do the same from the inside. (I listen to indie music and that means I'm superior! But when they say they're superior, it's evil!) And I don't think I belong with my peer group, or much of anyone else. Difference is, I don't place a moral value on belonging or not belonging. I do my thing, everyone else can do theirs, whether their thing is building the Eiffel tower out of toothpicks or giving themselves ulcers over the latest fashions. No skin off my nose. But I think what you're criticizing about these types of movies, is that response. That the popular kids are saying "you suck," and the nerds realizing (maybe right then, maybe later as adults) that, no, we don't. Specifically, I'm criticizing the "No, YOU suck! WE rule!!" reaction. To me it's exactly the same as the "die, nerds, die" attitude that starts it; it all perpetuates the same power struggle. I'm more "We all suck [or rule] in our own way. Who cares what anyone else is doing. Get over it and mind your own business already. Hey, is that cake?" So I guess I'm just err...going way off topic. But suggesting that one way of seeing things is that acceptance just doesn't matter. Pro or con. But hey, maybe it would be good for me to see this movie and reconnect with my True Misery rather than not caring about the whole shebang. I'll Netflix it down the road.
• Do you really think any of the kids on the bottom of the social ladder really thought they were better than the ones at the top (your personal experience notwithstanding)? Or were they just trying to get through high school and move on? "better than them" is my judgment, today. They were not ridiculing other people for their appearance/interests, so yes, that makes them better in my estimation that kids who are cruel solely to assert their position in the pecking order. I mean look, there were two groups of people. Those who did the abusing, and those who were abused. So yeah, one of those groups of people suck. They are not equally responsible, they do not both share blame. Only one of those groups ever had power in the high school society. Sometimes blame does get laid on one party alone. But this movie, and the geek-chic phenomenon in general, isn't indie hipsters making fun of people who dress unironically. This is an ex-dweeb filmmaker saying to other ex-dweebs, look at our shared experience. Look at how everyone else thought we were losers, but we really weren't. You don't have to be ashamed of your past, etc.
• This sounds a bit like those 80's high school movies, only more mature. The thing that gets me about those kind of movies is that everyone has their own unique memories from high school, and those movies try put them in stereotypes & box them in. Also, everyone had a unique experience in high school. The kids from Breakfast Club did not represent all the types of kids that could be found. Also (yes, yes, again), there are more than two groups of people (abused & abuser). There's ignored, there's the trans-clique popular, and so on and so on. totally off topic... Wurwilf, how nice to meet another KoL addict!! So as to not hijack this thread, message me sometime - player name's gizpotato (I know, I know. My cat's name is Gizmo, and I call him gizpotato sometimes.)
• I like that point too, minda. One of my problems with geek-chic is that I can't really find a fitting box to put myself in... Heh. I found out about KoL here, actually. I'm "virago" over there. Hello! Do you really think any of the kids on the bottom of the social ladder really thought they were better than the ones at the top (your personal experience notwithstanding)? Or were they just trying to get through high school and move on? I get a whiff of "Those stupid sheep! They have no minds, they're just thoughtless robots etc." sometimes, yeah. Or maybe I was just looking in the wrong places. They were not ridiculing other people for their appearance/interests, so yes, that makes them better in my estimation that kids who are cruel solely to assert their position in the pecking order. Really? I see the same effect in people who criticize others because their musical choices aren't indie enough. I see it among nerds; you should see an infight among anime nerds someday when somebody drops the dreaded D-word ("dub"). Unfortunately, some people, when ostracized, instead of learning from it, turn around and ostracize those lower than they, or each other. I don't absolve them for that just because somebody else did it first. I mean look, there were two groups of people. Those who did the abusing, and those who were abused. I don't see it that way. As I mentioned, some of the nerds are just as elitist and nasty as any stereotypical jock-jerk. I don't see it as Good vs. Evil at all. Just a bunch of kids who, on average, are immature and jerked around by their own mucked-up brain chemistry. So yeah, one of those groups of people suck. They are not equally responsible, they do not both share blame. Only one of those groups ever had power in the high school society. I don't see how "power in the high school society" means one lick of anything outside high school, or confers innocence or blame to anyone. But that's just my view. But this movie, and the geek-chic phenomenon in general, isn't indie hipsters making fun of people who dress unironically. It is as far as I've seen. But then, I wear khakis and like pop music, and am therefore, obviously, evil. ;) This is an ex-dweeb filmmaker saying to other ex-dweebs, look at our shared experience. Look at how everyone else thought we were losers, but we really weren't. You don't have to be ashamed of your past, etc. Some of us do have to be. We don't get a free pass; we aren't golden, blameless, sweet little innocent victims just because we liked D&D (or what have you). If you turn around from somebody ragging on you and do the same to them, I consider you equally guilty. I don't care who started it; it shows so much more strength not to stoop to that level. At least that's how I see it. I judge people by what they do and not what they wear; I respect a prepster who is nice to people more than a geek who tears into someone for listening to pop music.
• you should see an infight among anime nerds someday when somebody drops the dreaded D-word ("dub"). Wait, what's there to fight about over dub? Some kind of Lee "Scratch" Perry vs. King Tubby thing? Is "dreaded" a pun?
• It's an alpha geek dominance ritual. JoeChip. Dubbed anime, according to those who are opposed is inferior to the subtitled kind, and vice versa. It's one of those Kirk vs Picard/Star Trek vs Star Wars/Xanth vs Narnia/Batman vs Superman debates that makes everyone participating look silly. Batman
• Kirk. Wars. Narnia. Green Lantern. Anyone who disagrees is automatically gay. I have decreed it!
• Xanth vs Narnia? WTF? Xanth only if you're a pun addict. Definitely Batman. Although I like those oil paintings of an older Superman I've seen on book covers.
• It's an alpha geek dominance ritual. Yep, that's the kind of thing I meant. (and Joel vs. Mike, one of my favorites, given the nature of the show.) Elitism doesn't always wear Prada. One of my favorite turf-war moments was being lined up for The Two Towers right next to a theater showing Star Trek: Nemesis, derided by a LotR fanboy about being "Trek nerds," and then watching said fanboy get told by the movie-house staff to get in line. The best part was watching him slink to the end of the line he'd just mocked. He was much quieter then. Beautiful. /anecdotalderail
• Wurwilf, I think you're still missing something. Here it is reduced to it's simplest terms: I say to you, "you suck." You say to me, "no I don't." Anything beyond that simple exchange is being ascribed to this discussion, by you. Not everything is adversarial. Not every celebration of one's own culture is a condemnation of someone else's. I don't actually care what kind of pants you wear... And when I said one person is better than another, I meant by their actions, their kindness, so we are in agreement. ...and not everyone who wears Prada is an elitist.
• Monkeyfilter: I say to you, "you suck." You say to me, "no I don't."
• Heh. I know what you were saying, but what I was saying is that "no, I don't" is normally not what I hear. Normally what I hear is "YOU suck!" I haven't known my fellow geek to be all that accepting and philosophical and... non-bitter. Not everything is adversarial. Not every celebration of one's own culture is a condemnation of someone else's. I don't actually care what kind of pants you wear... Great! I don't either. I didn't say everything was adversarial. I just took issue with the assumption that all people who were teased in high school are Blameless, Holy Victims Valiantly Striving Against The Unholy Power of The People Who Were Popular In High School. Most of them are just kids. I agree with what you're saying now. ...and not everyone who wears Prada is an elitist. I said that first. ;) But yes, agreed.
• Do chickens have very large talons?
• Boy I don't understand a goddamn word you just said!
• I do! I LOVED it!! Watched it twice in a row. Can I just say how amazingly different the guy who plays Napolean looks out of costume. You'd never know it was him.
• Napoleon Dynamite reads the Top 10 on David Letterman. (embedded wmv file)