May 15, 2004

OK, I've been researching Islam since the late '70s, and there is no "Peace" in this religion. "To: President G.W. Bush From: Craig Winn Date: April 1, 2004 Re: Islamic Terrorism Enough already. Your political future isn

"With yesterday

posted by thoolou 19 years ago
  • Please spend a few minutes looking over this book before becoming an "outraged citizen of the world."
  • April Fools!
  • OK dude, weak.
  • Right. Spent a few minutes looking over the book. Can I be an outraged citizen of the world now?
  • Sorry you think so. It's the most appropriate response. Has the Bible been changed or currupted as Islam claims? Amazingly, the Bible is inerrant! EVIDENCES OF JESUS CHRIST'S RESURRECTION It's, gasp, historical fact! Israel or Palestine? 20 Interesting Facts The agenda of those who strive to destroy Israel! What kind of tard publishes most of his website as Microsoft Word documents? Why, a Dot com visionary, of course! Publisher: FaithWorks Please spend a few minutes looking over this book No thanks. The epilogue (Liberals, preaching the dogma of Political Correctness ... Man indoctrinated and separated from God becomes a more demonic creature. ... You see, I
  • Comment directed to thoolou, not BBF, of course.
  • P.S. Now that was a fucking wasted half-hour.
  • Whenever you see a claim of "correct" or "incorrect" with regard to a religion, you can safely disregard the claim.
  • This is a pile of shit. One can take any 'holy book' and make them look like hate texts. The Bible in particular is full of exhortations to violence. There are many passages in the Quran forbidding violence, and they aren't quoted here. Funny, that. Please grow brains, religious maniacs: Jewish, Christian, Muslim, et al.
  • Where I will certainly agree that this guy has a SERIOUS agenda, it does not belie the central message. I have studied world religions for half my life, and the fact that Islam was founded by a pedophile pirate is irrefutable if you read the original texts. I am not a christian apologist, (who could be in a truthful accounting?), but when a "religion" dictates that "unbelievers" are fair game for any number of inhuman actions, I question their motives. Too many of you are ready to write ill of anyone who has a religious bent, completely ignoring the message. FWIW, I am an atheist. I do not have not religious agenda. I merely put forth things I find through research that most people find "too inflammatory" to discuss. *Dons flameproof suit*
  • Heh! Just wait till I get into my "Christian" rant... Believe it or not folks, the west is in a war for survival. Sorry to rock the foundations of all you "Intellectuals" out there...
  • "FWIW, I am an atheist. I do not have not religious agenda." LOL! You don't think this is a contradiction? OK, to be fair, monkeys should now post all that stuff on Bible errors, Talmudic expiation of Christ, Hindu atrocities, etc. This is shit. /flings poo Maybe if you had picked a better source, but this is not worth anyone's time.
  • Most religions have significant amounts of violence and conquest embedded into their narrative threads. The issue shouldn't be whether or not Islam is overtly violent, (read the Qu'ran yourself and form your own opinions,) but why there are so many violent people who claim to be acting in the name of Islam. To claim that al-Qaeda seeks to destroy democracy because of religion puts one in an untenable position - what are we supposed to do, ban Islam? Rather, we need to spend more time exploring why these terrorists are interpreting the religion in such a way.
  • What jaypro said!
  • Too many of you are ready to write ill of anyone who has a religious bent, completely ignoring the message. Hardly. Some Of My Best Friends Are Christians™. However, when such a "source" has such an obvious "agenda" of exalting its "religion" over others', I tend to disregard its "message." I merely put forth things I find through research that most people find "too inflammatory" to discuss. Mm-hm. There is a word for such. I usually hear it applied to homely older men stalking cute young ones, but it might apply in this context, too. Also, what Nostril said.
  • An "expert" and his "studies" on Christian grooming. Just goes to show that there are wackos of every stripe, Christian, Hindu, Moslem, etc.. Regarding wacko Buddhists, I've seen some oddball, new age types spouting all kinds of crystal lovin', goddess worshiping, heal yourself with wheatgrass juice dogma, but I don't think that I have seen too many war mongering types, with the exception of certain Japanese Shinto/Zen folks. Is it just me, or is Buddhism (out of the major world religions) just more pacifist?
  • Just what I expected. goetter: Nice hyperbole. You are an idiot. Spew innuendo when you have no point. Nostril: I have enjoyed your logic and level-headed responses in the past, but I truly do not see your point. Again, attack the messenger. If you care to refute me, please do so with facts.
  • Squid: Thank you!
  • You are an idiot. QED.
  • I'm certainly no expert on Islam, but rather than talk about groups, I am always more inclined to talk about people. All the Islamic people I know are fine people. Whatever group is currently being castigated, say what you want about the group, but the people that I have met that belong in that particular group be they Islamic, gay, Black, Jewish, left-handed, whatever, seem to be basically ordinary people. I know that I've met a whole lot more white, straight Christians that I can't stand to be in the same room as than I have people of any other group. Now certainly growing up in the rural midwest I've met a whole lot more stright white christians than any other group, but my point is: it is easy to talk about groups but when we talk about the people in those groups, if we get to know individuals, then, as trite as it might sound, we have a lot more in common than we have different. So to me talking about a group in the abstract doesn't do a lot of good. The people who kill people in acts of terrorism are the evil ones, not their religion any more than Timothy McVey's religion was evil.
  • thoolou, read this please
  • quot quit exit * shit * :q :wq :q! x UNSUBSCRIBE
  • *wanders in, looks around* Hmmm. Why are "outraged citizen of the world" and "Intellectuals" in quotation marks? *slouches off, hands in pockets, whistling tunelesly*
  • Wow... Monkeyfilter: Pedophile Pirates *backs away from thread slowly, making sure not to make any sudden moves that may be deemed threatening...*
  • "If you care to refute me, please do so with facts." I'm not addressing any of my comments to you personally, actually, but to the mindset of the site you posted, which I consider a waste of time. Fact: the site you posted is biased and its research heavily weighted in the direction of the author's beliefs. Therefore it is not worth anyone's time. A site that did not possess this bias would be worth considering. squidranch: "Is it just me, or is Buddhism (out of the major world religions) just more pacifist?" Apart from what PF posts, which is perfectly true, to be pedantic, Buddhism is not a religion. Buddhism possesses no gods or pantheon, dogma or strictly imposed ritual. It is a 'way of life' and this is how most practitioners tend to refer to it. It's a philosophy with limited premises, and from there on in, you're on your own. ;)
  • I [heart] Goetter.
  • This is a pretty crummy site. If Winn has studied Islam as thoroughly as he claims, how come he says that Muhammad is ``the doctrine's sole prophet''[1] in the second paragraph? I'll admit I'm not an expert on Islam or the Qu'ran, but if this guy can't get something that basic right, how am I to trust the rest of what he says? [1] As I understand it, Muslims include, frinstance, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus among their prophets, as discussed in the Qu'ran (annotated translation, scroll down to 136).
  • Actually, there are number of "religious" elements to various forms of Buddhism. In both the thervadin and hiniyana versions that I have studied they mention various supernatural beings, from gods and goddesses, to "hungry ghosts". One could argue that these are just metaphors for certain psychological states and the Buddhist writers of yore didn't have the language or words to describe what we take for granted, but to state that "Buddhism is not a religion" is not entirely truthful. It tends to place the onus of one's spiritual freedom on the individual rather than an outside source (God, Jesus, Allah, etc.) but there are many threads of aforementioned spritual/religious concepts to Buddhism. And there are sects like Pureland Buddhism who are very similar in certain ways are like salvation oriented Christianity. It’s is hard to make a generalization about an entire religious movement because there are so many different sects/groups within a religion that you are always going to be wrong about some part of it.
  • Nostril: religion: 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. Sounds kinda like Buddhism to me. And Scientology, for that matter.
  • please spend a few minutes looking over this page http://www.fourmilab.ch/webtools/demoroniser/ before pasting more broken mickeysoft text. i do so tire of seeing those question marks stuck in the middle of words. :-)
  • hey guys, i just showed up... what's going on around... UHHHH ohhh errrr hehe... sorry to... um. i didn't.. yeah. well... cya.
  • Wow, MoFi has acquired its very own 111. *tiptoes out, trying to keep feet from getting shitstained*
  • languagehat : this means we can frame it under glass and nail it to the wall, right?
  • Nostril: No, I don't see my being an atheist as a contradiction. Since I don't subscribe to the flavor of the month, I have no particular axe to grind with any "religion." I was a a right-wing Billy Graham dupe for half my life. Fortunately, I met several people who made me examine my beliefs, and decide for myself. The central problem I have with religion, is that most of them profess to be "The Way." Sad. If you believe in a white-haired old man that remembers your birthday, more power to you. I have no problem with it if it brings you peace or whatever. I am not about destroying anyone's belief. I have just seen in my life that it is far too easy to say that "The Bible says (or Qu'ran or Book of Morman, or....)" and give a pass on whatever happens to be the topic. No personal accountability, and your reward awaits you when you die. How convenient. I notice that no one has been able to refute that Islam was stolen from the Jews, and modified to suit the circumstances of it's self-proclaimed prophet. RXR: It may be a troll, but I tire of the smug self-righteousness of the general public. Watch that left knee as it jerks back. Finally, languagehat: Speaking of trolls. 111 rarely does any research to back up his inflamatory remarks. I have spent almost 20 years researching religion. Please keep you self-rightous smirks to yourself. I posted this to open a dialogue, and I fully expected to get hammered by a lot of "intellectual" purists. Boo: You are my hero! :)
  • War eh? I always thought of Islam as the religion of "gwar"
  • Oooh, the word intellectual seems to have cropped up in quotation marks again. This keeps happening. I'm a little perplexed.
  • thoolou, you sad sad person, tell me, since you've spent almost 20 years researching, who's Ibn Taimiyya and what is the relevance of his ideas to contemporary Islamic thought? What is the "barzakh"? What is the major jurisprudential difference between Sunni and Shi'a Islam? What is the major Sufi order of the Northern Caucasus? Of Senegal? No googling, now -- I'm asking these questions off the top of my head, and I can answer them that way too. I've got three different translations of the Qur'an, one with copious commentary (without which you can't possibly understand the text). Furthermore, I know actual live Muslims, which I seriously doubt you do. Don't come in here peddling your pseudoscholarship in the attempt to spread your prejudice. Islam is just as much, or as little, a religion of peace as any other. Peaceful people will find peace in it, jerks will find what they want. Look in the mirror and tell me what you see.
  • Let me bounce quickly upon some points, Thoolou: I notice that no one has been able to refute that Islam was stolen from the Jews, and modified to suit the circumstances of it's self-proclaimed prophet. Not that this means that it's irrefutable, mind you. Or that much of Christian faith could say the same thing -- like Jon Stewart once said, the people who founded these religions did just do it in the same geographical area, they pretty much went to high school together, and probably had the same home-room. the fact that Islam was founded by a pedophile pirate is irrefutable if you read the original texts Well, the bible irrefutably condones incest. Do we take care of the Christians concurrently with the Mohammadeans, or do we wait until we're done with them? the west is in a war for survival. Yes, but not for the reasons you think. Here's what I'd like to see, speaking as a secular humanist: You people (yes, I'm speaking in broad, vague terms here) get your shit together and keep your mythological squabblings off my lawn. We have things to be attending to; things that are bigger,better, and more important than figuring out where our ideologies intersect and where they clash, than figuring out which religion is the one true anything, than figuring out where the holy-fucking-grail lies. Wise up, and figure out how your religions -- whatever they may be -- can help humanity, rather than razing another scarred grove of olive trees, rather than detonating explosive in crowds -- and I don't care if the delivery vehicle's a helicopter gunship or some poor bastard living on a middle eastern reservation. Cause right now, from where I'm standing, all this shit looks like the ultimate dick-waving contest and it's starting to get mighty fucking old. I remember my mo m working in a Jewish hospital on the east coast during the 70's, and she had to deal with death threats every shift she worked. Now, over 25 years later -- it seems like we're in just the same shit we were in then. So, if you'd like to play nice with each other, then, please, feel free to stay. However, if your interpretation of your chosen religion cannot be expressed beyond rampant and divisive evangalism, repressive social policies and violence, then get out, and stay out.
  • I thought this Craig Winn guy was a bit fishy. This whole anti-islam bit he's pushing has ties to the White House and the CIA. Craig Winn started Value America. A dot-com which went belly up. Winn hired David Kuo. As vice-president for communications David Kuo had no .com experience. But he did have connections Kuo worked for the CIA. And was a speech writer for Bush 1. Internet bubble burst Value America closed its doors. Winn's out of a job Kuo wrote a book called "dot . bomb" The book was all about Kuo working with Winn. Suddenly, Winn decides to travel the world writing about the evils of Islam. Winn appears on the 700 Club with Pat Robertson His buddy Kuo gets a job at Bush 2s White House. Kuos job title? Deputy Director of the White House Office of Faith Based and Community Initiatives. Of course there's no connection Ain't America great?
  • *eats banana, shrugs*
  • wolof- ?
  • Wow!
  • Nice job, Argh! Still looking up "barzakh," thoolou?
  • Please do not piss on the daisies, ya'll.
  • I [heart] languagehat and argh too.
  • I ♥ all of y'all. Islam was stolen from the Jews Please, please, please don't feed the troll. I am so very sorry that I did. (Mistakes were made.)
  • We had to burn the thread in order to save it.
  • Goetter- How did you do the heart-thingy? My HTML skillz are teh sux0rz. (If I could learn that, the time spent reading this thread will not have been such a total fucking waste)
  • Bone, it's called a "HTML named character entity." Basically, it's a way to express portably in seven-bit ASCII characters that lie outside of seven-bit ASCII. For the heart-thingy, type ampersand-h-e-a-r-t-s-semicolon. It will look like this: ♥ BE WARNED that the MoFi "Preview" function will eat your hard-typed named character entity, replacing it with the literal character entity. If you then submit "Post" without replacing the literal with the encoded name, you may end up showing folks strange characters. /spreading the geek-chic
  • It happens to the best of us, goetter. I don't think we need to prove anything to him either. And his attempt to divide us by displaying hostility to those who tell him outright it's crap, and affection to those who express more neutral opinions is so blatant, my teeth hurt looking at him. My father spent ten years reading the Koran (or Quran or Q'uran, as you will), and decades talking to and interacting with Muslims of diverse social and financial standings. Not for 'research', but out of curiosity and a genuine desire to understand. He taught me this: Those who bother to read and understand the Koran know, that they are to respect the People of the Book, that those who believe in the One God are good friends to have, and to only act against those who would pervert the words of God. That is my "Intellectual" foundation. Trying to shake it will take alot more than a few crackpots who claim to be experts on Islam. Sadly, expertise seems to be something that any Tom, Dick and Harry can claim to nowadays. Read a bit, listen a bit, and you're an expert. Any wonder why we have a surge of 'consultants' and 'expert sources' in this day? Goetter, now I know what happened with my M.O.N.K.E.Y.! Dang Preview button... *shifts blame neatly to inamimate device*
  • *steps in...looks around...boo has a point...steps out*
  • Let's see... I ♥ goetter, languagehat, and argh. And alnedra. And hell, most of the folks posting on this thread. Yay!
  • I am un♥ed.
  • Well said, Alnedra. And in case anybody's curious about the answers to my pop quiz (I think we can safely say thoolou has forfeited): Ibn Taimiyya was a 14th-century religious scholar who outraged authorities and was chased out of one city after another because of his extremely controversial "literalist" interpretations of the Koran, which involved treating a great many accepted practices as bid'a (forbidden innovation); he was the major theoretical inspiration of the Wahhabis and all later "fundamentalists" who want to return Islam to what they imagine things to have been like in the seventh century (or, in Islamic terms, the first century). "Barzakh" is literally a boundary or border region, as for example between fresh water and salt water where a river meets the ocean; in religious terms it is the boundary between this world and the next, which has played a great part in mystical speculation since Ibn Arabi (who lived at the same time as Ibn Taymiyya: the scholar of openness and love vs the scholar of closed-mindedness and hate). The major jurisprudential difference between Sunni and Shi'a Islam is that the latter uses the Ja'fari school of legal interpretation rather than any of the four authorized by Sunni Islam; this is not a major division between the two, any more than the slightly different methods of daily prayer. The major Sufi order of the Northern Caucasus is the Naqshbandiyya (spelled various ways, eg Nakshibandiyya), in those parts a militant order committed to fighting the infidels with fire and sword (which complicates the usual Western fantasy of Sufism as a mystical realm of peace, just as PF's excellent comment gives the lie to similar fantasies about Buddhism); as for Senegal, one could defend giving either the Tijaniyya (widespread in North and West Africa) or the Muridiyya (specific to Senegal, and growing fast) as the answer. *waits for thoolou to show up and say "I knew that!"*
  • bone, I ♥ you all too! That includes you, languagehat, you great ole wise-crack you. *thump shoulder*
  • Why do people have to fight? posted by homunculus at 05:40AM UTC on May 16 We have a winner. Thank You homunculus.
  • I just wanted to try the ♥ thingy.
  • ð þæ
  • I merely put forth things I find through research that most people find "too inflammatory" to discuss. Quoting one religous fanatic's polemic against other religous fanatics' atrocities? On behalf of atheiests everywhere I have to tell you that we're changing the password to the secret treehouse and revoking your raquetball privledges. Watch that left knee as it jerks back Its ok I just made friends with a chiropracter. French guy, painter, drives a vespa, has a macaw that perches on his shoulder and will clean your fingernails for you. I may be looking forward to the chic-est orthopedic adjustment since that time I tripped in the hen house.
  • *sniffs daisies*
  • I call for more crap posts like this so that languagehat can show up in the thread and educate me. *goes back to reading l/h's blog*
  • ♥ Did it work?
  • I see boxes, boxes everywhere.
  • Caaaaan you feeel the ♥ tonight?
  • OK, I've got to try it: ♥
  • Woo hoo!
  • ♠ ♣ ♥ ♦
  • ♦
  • Stupid diamond doesn't show up on this machine.
  • Wow. This thread was depressing. Except for the heart stuff. The heart stuff was cool.
  • That was fascinating. Troll and all.
  • Diamond doesn't show up for me either. Fascinating. In both Western Europe encodings, I can see ♠ ♣ ♥ ♦, but not languagehat's or surlyboi's. In Unicode, I can see everythink. *crackle of lightning, thunder* BWAHAHAHAH... ahem.. sorry, too much Van Helsing.
  • And the people did rejoice At the demise Of the troll But what new menace Would the poor villagers Face in the coming months For the troll Had many sons
  • Funny thing is, the diamond shows up in preview, although it's really tiny compared to the other suits.
  • Heart attack! ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
  • If you want a lot of chocolate on your biscuit, join our ♣
  • I wonder... can one use an HTML-named character entity in the context of a link. Only one way to find out... :hearts;
  • Shit... it worked in preview. Wha' happen?
  • Was it this - ♥ - possibly? work, damn you...
  • *removes shirt, does victory lap*
  • flashboy ownz0rz me.
  • flashboy, that's a beaut!
  • *applauds great resolution of sticky post* Yes! Really!
  • monkeyfilter vs. thoolou (ouch) goetter vs. thoolou (double ouch) languagehat vs. thoolou (wow... that's just embarrasing. who knew?) let's try one more... argh vs. thoolou (geez, finally!)
  • embarrasing No.
  • No. .oN
  • ♥
  • 0wnz0red...
  • >>embarrasing >No. Well, yes... kinda. I mean, Languagehat is a "Porridge-Eating Surrender Monkey." That's just all kinds of wrong.
  • Well, it is true, to the extent that I am a kebab-eating monkey.
  • OK, I've been researching Islam since the late '70s, and there is no "Peace" in this religion.
  • Wolof, I just want to say, we're all counting on you.
  • Between my dawg PF and myself, there will soon be an Airplane quote and/or a Food Monkey Fight in every thread. Yay!
  • The river was deep but I swam it.
  • Oh, and RHPS too.
  • Damn it.
  • ♥
  • The problem is, while Islam as it is for a great many people in a large part of the world may well be "a religion of peace", the Qu'ran had to be reinterpreted and supplemented by oodles of (often spurious) hadiths (in several diferent lines and traditions), as well as modified by the inevitable adjustments 1500 years of history will require of any religion, to make it so. In that it's in good company with the Tanakh's tales of the conquest of Canaan, and with the violent spread of the New Testament religion (whose founder-acharya saith "I bring not peace but the sword") through the Roman Empire, laterly the rest of Europe, and then through the Americas in modern times. And generally speaking, what believers in any Abrahamic "religion of peace" usually mean by that is "peace among us proper members of the One True Faith." Emo Philips pretty much nailed it thus: * In a conversation with a suicidal man threatening to jump off a bridge: I said, 'Are you a Christian or a Jew?' He said, 'A Christian.' I said, 'Me too. Protestant or Catholic?' He said, 'Protestant.' I said, 'Me too. What franchise?' He says, 'Baptist.' I said, 'Me too. Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?' He says, 'Northern Baptist.' I said, 'Me too. Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?' He says, 'Northern Conservative Baptist.' I said, 'Me too. Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist or Northern Conservative Reformed Baptist?' He says, 'Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist.' I said, 'Me too. Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist, Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist, Eastern Region?' He says, 'Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist, Great Lakes Region.' I said, 'Me too. Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist, Great Lakes Region, Council of 1879 or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist, Great Lakes Region, Council of 1912?' He says, Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist, Great Lakes Region, Council of 1912.' I said, 'Die, heretic!' and I pushed him over. [end quote] Sorry folks, but for a real religion of peace according to it's own basic scriptures you'll have to content yourself with the Pali canon. P.S. Hi languagehat! Peace, d00d!
  • I've founded a religion of peace. Now give me money.
  • I've founded a religion of peace entirely opposed to everything dng's heretical 'religion' (or cult) of so-called peace teaches. give me money. and guns.
  • I've got both of you trumped: in MY religion we worship a LAWYER. (Get it? "Lawyers, Guns and Money"?) By the way, I think languagehat should be right, MoFi should be more congenial than that other place. So here you're invited to picture me grinning me grinning, cackling, and not even trying to myself seriously. (Or else I vill destroy ze vorld!!1!!1!)
  • Big Davey, I don't think that's what he had in mind.
  • "trying to myself?" That's the first time I've heard it called that. *swings from branch*
  • Pigs and Repugnants.
  • Knowledge is power: example - the guy with the words on his head.
  • What they need's a damn good whacking!
  • Everywhere there's lots of piggies living piggy lives, you can see them out for dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives...
  • Oh gawd, a couple of White Album references in one thread. Picture me grinning. For extra credit, what did Charlie call Sadie's kid?
  • "trying to myself?" I think I left a word out, but I don't know which.
  • davy? Is that you? Anyway, I completely agree with your comment. As I said above (many moons ago -- thanks for restoring the archives, ##1&2!): "Islam is just as much, or as little, a religion of peace as any other. Peaceful people will find peace in it, jerks will find what they want."
  • Sexy Sadie?
  • Nah. I figure the kid has to be Rocky Raccoon, pete.
  • Some guy named David Kuo came out with a book recently saying that Karl Rove (and other White House folks) mocked evangelicals in private. I was trying to remember where I had first heard of Kuo... and then I remembered.
  • Now that's some thread necromancing, right there.