March 29, 2004

• I think calling them wild animals is an insult to wild animals. Wild animals attack because they need to survive. These people (creatures? Things? lumps of meat?) attack for some inverted sense of justice and sheer sadistic pleasure.
• Maybe it's my tinfoiled imagination, but I keep noticing many troubling signs of growing intolerance on the USA. All the way from the top. And I find it quite scary. Is this the way to fight religious fundamentalism? By becoming a mirror-image of it? Will we see this story grow and become some factor on the coming election, or sink and never be heard from again?
• I like the mention of Instapundit complaining about left-wing violence directed against right-wingers. Yes, this is clearly a big problem in the US.
• Flagpole, the trend in the US is inexorably to the cultural left. US culture is generally and quite markedly more liberal and tolerant than it used to be. But I think that this is the case has radicalized a minority of extreme cultural conservatives. The shifting cultural context has made their actions more newsworthy and, at the extreme end of the spectrum, possibly more common. But I think the aggregate of intolerance is much lower than it used to be. Certainly, I *do* think it's true that the cultural conservatives have maneuvered themselves into having a disproportionately "loud" voice in our culture over the last twenty years. This has been a deliberate strategy on their part
• Well, a country with over 290 million people is bound to have a lot of inertia. Frankly, I am quite heartened that the US has made it this far. There are still alot of injustices done, but look at it this way: at least it's out in the open, the government doesn't condone it officially (although some of them may applaud these actions in private), and people can talk about it either way. There was a time, not too long ago, where this kind of event would not even have made it to the news at all.
• I can't imagine this story disappearing. I'm sure it will become much bigger. Not as big as Matthew Shepard, but it will be a significant story. I can see someone like Rosie O'Donnell making sure it stays in the headlines for awhile.
• i'm dubious. does anyone have any names involved here? if it was indeed this vicious of an attack it would have been at least a brief in the atlanta paper, but i can't find anything in nexis.
• alnedra - cats often kill because they can. so do humans, but i still like both. i do however agree with you on that; too many people use the "wild animal" or "devil made him do it" excuse to explain antisocial or violent behavior in people. that way, by blaming it on something, they can pretend that humans (and thus themselves as well) don't have the ability to be needlessly cruel. i'd rather realize that we can be needlessly cruel, and that most of us choose not to be this way, either out of copmpassion or out of some innate desire to be liked by others. so, to be needlessly cruel (if this turns out to be true), here's hoping that these assholes get their chance to be raped in prison.
• I dug around in the morons.org thread. Looks like a few people are asking the same questions as SideDish and are trying to confirm the story with reporters and the Atlanta PD. They'll post more info as it comes in. No doubt humans are capable of doing horrible things to each other. Unfortunately at this point there are plenty of discrepancies and not many facts.
• But I think that this is the case has radicalized a minority of extreme cultural conservatives. The shifting cultural context has made their actions more newsworthy and, at the extreme end of the spectrum, possibly more common. Uh, yeah, because the left never does stuff like this.
• Ummm...a fistfight is a bit different from a vicious life threatening sexual assault. The behaviour should not be condoned on either side, but we can recognise a difference in scale, and scariness.
• I'd think this would be all over the local GLB news sources, but I don't see anything at all. I'm not calling bs, but it seems like an emerging situation, if you can call it that. Darshon : To me, it's both the radicalized left and right that has me cringing -- the extremists on both sides of the fence, not just liberal/democrat or conservative/republican. Although you could probably post a better link than an altercation that boils down to a he-said-she-said, they-started-it-no-they-started-it between participants. Finally, One of his works which depicts President George W. Bush as the grand wizard of a KKK rally complete with burning cross with rainbow smoke ... I can't imagine why this would inflame anyone. The violence is inexcusable, but (and I haven't seen the image) this rhetorical image is vile. on preview: what jb said
• i emailed a crime reporter for the atlanta journal-constitution, i'm sure he would have heard of this if it did indeed happen.
• also checked with my newsie friend & emailed snopes.
• I am totally shocked that people actually read LiveJournals blogs!!
• i also just emailed nick johnson, who originally posted the item. but i remain dubious of anything that starts off, "this happened to a friend of a friend..."
• from a journal-constitution crime reporter: >>Just checked with the public affairs officer with Atlanta Police Dept., and he said he hasn't heard anything about any incident like this.
• From the morons.org thread (scroll down to end): Posted by lala on Mar 29 2004 18:44:42 UTC hello all. confirmation took exactly one phone call to the atlanta p.d. central records (404-853-3434) asking if there were any reports containing [alleged victim's name]. according to the lady i spoke with, there was NOTHING in their records at all - for any date. ever. *** Posted by Reporter on Mar 29 2004 18:50:50 UTC Crime reporter at Atlanta Journal-Constitution has heard nothing of this: >>Just checked with the public affairs officer with Atlanta Police Dept., and he said he hasn't heard anything about any incident like this.
• Whoops, sorry SideDish. I didn't catch the double quote.
• i hate to see stuff like this get started on the web because people always notice the original post and lots seem to miss the subsequent post where the item may be debunked -- as in this case, apparently.
• Good work, journoMonkeys.
• SideDish : Me too, but some credence came when the FOAF actually surfaced. That's why I (and you, and shinything) bothered to actually check up on things. Interesting that the people on morons getting the most heat are those checking up on the story.
• dng : We got our MoJo rising.
• So, lefties assaulting conservatives story turns out to be true, while conservatives assaulting lefties story is a hoax. And what do we take away from this? Gee, those conservatives sure are a violent, ignorant bunch.
• Are you trolling, the_leviathan? No one seems to have said that, anywhere in this thread.
• I think (hope?) that levi is talking about the attitude of people on moron, rather than our own conversation. I can't find anything that backs up his claim, although I'd certainly listen to his interpretation of things if I'm mistaken.
• My point was simply this: An alleged attack on a liberal blogger was used by multiple posters as a jumping off point to expound on the loony right, while a counter example from the left was seen in isolation rather than being indicative of the ideology itself. I think yesterday's Washington Post put it best: this red/blue thing is really beginning to have a negative effect on our civic conversation.
• Well the story you linked to was hardly conclusive - both sides said the other side started it. And it was only a fist fight. People have fist fights all the time - it is, basically, group behaviour, unfortunately. Now, if you wanted to pick an example of leftist violence maybe you should have used something like this.
• "So they stalked him using information they gathered from LiveJournal, and attacked him outside an Atlanta restaurant." Hello? This story is such a fake! Another ludicrous internet meme is born. "Hello to all my readers! Guess what? I'm going out to eat RIGHT NOW at my favorite restaurant in ATLANTA. Like I do at 7:30 pm EVERY SINGLE Thursday night. It's called MURDER CAFE. It's on the corner of 5th and Peachtree. Did I mention that i'll be all alone? Oh, I ALWAYS dine alone. Btw, did I mention that I am wearing a yellow shirt today with khaki pants? And I am a white male, about 5"9' and have a goatee? Also, I don't carry any weapons and enjoy sodomy. Cheers!"
• Hmmm. One of those "I told you so" moments where you realise you forgot to actually tell anybody so... It's not so much the direct implausibility that naxosaxur mentions (although try shouting "This is for Photoshopping that picture of our President, faggot!" without finding it at least a little unlikely), but simply the way in which every single bit of hate-crime meme-bait is present and correct, right down to the old sodomizing-with-broom-handle one. And sprinkled with a decent fear-mongering gimmick; what we do online can come back to haunt us in real life! There's an air of snopes-fodder hanging over it all; too bad to be true. We can only hope that it is, because it would be a horrible, brutal, stupid truth. Assuming for now that it's not true (or is at least an exaggeration/distortion of a real incident, which was my first thought), it's tempting to moan about people believeing anything so long as it conforms to their prejudices. But, what actually struck me, when I was googling for substantiating news stories on this last night, was that in fact this hasn't been picked up. Not by the major left-wing bloggers, not by GLBT sites, not by anybody except the two links provided here. When did the interweb get fitted with bullshit detectors?
• When did the interweb get fitted with bullshit detectors? The internet without bullshit would be like .... without .... Best answer wins something real good. Maybe a banana.
• The internet without bullshit would be like .... without .... like snacky cakes without the creme filling.
• eh? snacky cakes? get down!
• ...like juleps without the hangover.
• ...trying to breathe without oxygen.
• ... like religion without guilt. I feel so bad for saying that.
• Atlanta GLBT liason says no assault reports; this contradicts Mousey's -- the ljer in question -- report. http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_03_21_dneiwert_archive.html#108043304507322450