September 22, 2008

• Here in Ontario, they've had an awareness campaign for this sort of thing. Mostly aimed at children abusing their elderly parents, though. Looks like Pennsylvania has something similar. I'd give a call to an Elder Abuse hotline thingy, rather than an 'ordinary' spousal abuse hotline or the cops, as the elder abuse people likely have a better grasp of the issues at work, and how to address them. In any event, it's worth giving the elder abuse people a call, to find out what your options are, and your role in reporting. Personally, I hold squealers in the deepest reaches of my contempt, but in matters like this, I'd much rather drop a dime on someone rather than have to live with something happening, me having the ability to stop it, yet I did nothing. Doesn't hurt to have an exploratory call.
• I don't think the police are going to do anything in the absence of physical abuse. They would surely stop by and check things out, but their involvement would be limited. It wouldn't hurt to call them if this fighting continues - so there's some kind of record in their files - in the event that this man turns physical on her in the future (if he hasn't already). I think your options would be limited to noise complaints at this point - - because even though it's probably horrible to be on the receiving end, or hear, there's no law that I know of that says it's illegal to yell at your spouse in the confines of your home. Personally, I might initially be tempted just to knock on their door and appear to be a concerned neighbor (even if you know there's a fight going on), "I'm sorry, we heard some noise and wanted to make sure that everything is OK here". Something along those lines that sends a message to them that others hear what is going on. I would definitely refrain from saying something in a confrontational manner. Tough position to be in. Surely, the other monkeys will provide some excellent advice:
• I'd disagree with smt's advice of knocking on the door, playing the concerned neighbour. If anything, I'd find it likely to escalate the situation once you leave. Similarly, calling the cops on them is the nuclear war button of neighbourhood politics, and should be avoided. Social services is a different matter -- they're outsiders, they have some authority, and they're trained to deal with precisely these sorts of situations. Plus, you'd no longer be involved in something you don't have the skills to address properly, for all your good intentions. IMHO, YMMV, IANAD, CYLL.
• Find a way to contact her children and tell them exactly what is going on. They are more morally obliged to protect her, help her, and are in a position to do so, if she goes to live with them. I doubt any amount of complaint will change his behaviour.
• Is the husband always home? Maybe just giving the wife someone to talk to would help. I dunno - even that's probably more than I'd do myself, but I've had scary neighbors most of my life.
• It could be that his personality has changed due to an onset of dementia--oftentimes, the personality changes are for the worse, involving screaming and odd behavior (like the barking). If this is the case, the wife may just be putting up with it because she feels sorry for him, realizing that it's the dementia. It still doesn't make it right, though, and yes, as a neighbor, you should take action. You would if it were a child--why is an adult any different? Call an Elder Abuse Hotline and see if they can steer you in the right direction for this particular situation. Here is a list of all the hotlines for each state.
• I once lived next door to a family from Arkansas who regularly beat their son who lived with them. Usually it was the mother's job, but one night the father got involved using his belt. These people threatened to produce a gun one time coming after a neighbor in an extended family feud. Clearly all of the children were staunch advocates for their parents... My own lame solution was to just be friendly with the kid, playing catch with him especially after a beating. That's all.
• This may sound harsh, but: don't get involved, it's not your business. It's her life and up to her or her family to do something about the situation. If she can't or won't, maybe there's a reason why (she knows he's losing his marbles and is hanging in there for her own reasons, or she's a doormat, either way she can't be helped - or, perhaps she deserves it? Who knows - who is going to be the judge of someone else's life?). Don't let them get space in your head, it will only harm you, and you can't actually help in any way that won't cause some degree of further harm to someone either in the family, or to her. Unless you're prepared to be a full-on social worker for these people, you are not equipped to deal with their stuff, nor should you be expected to. If someone was getting stabbed or raped or beat up, different deal, but IMHO you gotta draw a line in the sand where you keep your own head healthy and stay out of other peoples' shit, because it's never ending, once you get into it. It's a fucking bottomless pit. I have spent a lot of time in my life being dragged into other peoples' shit and it has never done anything but harm to me and the people I have naively tried to help. At the end of the day I think it was me that was in need of help, and I was just looking for other peoples' shit to get involved in, so I didn't have to deal with my own stuff. I'm not of the opinion this is what you are doing in any way, I'm just running that up the flag pole, so to speak. Perhaps I am just a clumsy enabler, but I think I've been a lot healthier allowing other people to go about their way, sick or healthy. Of course, if a weak person was getting physically attacked as I said above, that is a different deal, but verbally abusive spouses are not my duty to deal with, nor yours. If you find the arguments continue to be upsetting to you, complain to the relevant authorities about the noise issue, continually if need be, and maybe that would be the cleverest way to engineer a positive outcome in this instance. But I would not get involved on a personal level, if it was me.
• You should stop listening in on other people's lives. Everyone's fingernails are dirty when you get close enough. If someone jabs them into your (or someone else's) eyes, you should respond. Prior to that, sticks and stones and STFU.
• WTH anatinus? If this was my parents or grandparents I'd want to know that someone was looking out for them when I couldn't. I think the Capt has the best advice with calling some sort of Elder Abuse line. Yelling obscenities at your infirm partner counts as abuse to me, and shouldn't be tolerated at any age. To counter Hank's comment: sure, the husband may have something wrong with him, but tolerating verbal abuse won't help him. *If* that's the case, there are alternatives. Complaining about the noise only makes the abuse more hidden, and I can't imagine it would calm anyone or anything - including your conscience.
• This is what I'd do. This is just me, you understand. All the usual caveats apply: IANAL, IHMLAIWIWD etc. etc. ad infinitum. I would wait until she goes out. The woman who was being verbally abused. She goes out to buy her abusive husband some beer or whatever. When she comes home, the house has burned down, with him inside. None of the neighbours see nothin'. But in the years following, they all move away -- the neighbours do. Family by family they move away, leaving no forwarding addresses.
• kittenhead wrote: "Call an Elder Abuse Hotline" I hear the Mormons run one of those.
• I would leave this anonymous note in their mailbox: "Hello, neighbor. If you cannot treat your wife with civility, that's your business (and sadly, hers). When we can hear you, it also becomes ours. At the very least, please keep the noise down. Above that, perhaps you should consider counseling. That last one's up to you, but the next time we hear you two in an ugly row, we're going to call the cops, for your own safety. Please think about this Signed, Your Neighbors"
• Always a difficult call, but I agree with those that advise calling either the Elder Abuse hotline (if available where you are) or the police. Why? Because, without intervention, this WILL escalate, and the next step could easily be violence. Over the years I've lived in a couple of places where I was subjected to these types of events. My response was to always contact the police (thankfully I've always lived in small to medium towns where police don't just blow off anything less than a homicide). I just say, it sounds like it is getting violent at my neighbor's house, and let them take care of it. And, I do it every time it happens. Having the police show up can be a deterant at times (not discounting those who say the police coming could escalate things, yes, it could, but we don't know that for certain and we DO know that things are bad NOW!). What you don't want to happen is for it to turn violent with your not having done anything, everyone loses in that situation, including yourself. Be kind, be compassionate, but don't allow this to continue.
• I'm with Hank in that no one sane should get involved in a drama, but don't just ignore this. Try an Elder Care Hotline, or an Abuse Hotline. If there's nothing like that in the neighborhood, then call the cops. Mention to them what's been going on, but frame it in a context of disturbing the peace. This puts the onus on the cops--They can ignore your concerns about verbal abuse, but they have to document the disturbance of the peace. There's only so much you can do in a situation like this unless you know the couple.
• Thanks for the advice, everyone. I think I'll try the elder abuse hotline the Capt. linked, and see what they advise. I'm not usually a fan of getting into someone's private business, but I think I'd want someone to do something if I were getting treated like this (then again, I've never been treated like that, so I probably have a different mindset).
• No. I'm sorry I don't know of a better way to say this, but I can't trust your (or anyone else's) judgment on domestic disputes. Look at it this way: if it really was a matter for the police, you wouldn't be asking. You'd know it, and would be calling them. The fact that you're asking shows that you don't really think it's matter for the police, you just don't know what you to do. You're thinking that doing something is going to make you feel better. The fact is, calling the police is going to escalate things, and will not just make the situation worse, but all of their future moments together. You can't act without making things worse.
• Walk away, man. Someone called the cops on us when we her having a big ding dong (basically over teenagers playing music too loud, FFS), and I had a hall full of seven coppers all looking at me like I was a wife / child beater. I haven't had a fight with anyone since fucking school. Took my details and everything. So Christ knows when that will come back to haunt me. I know it was the people next door who called, and TBH, I wouldn't let them know if their fucking house was on fire now, snooty cunts. Not. Your. Problem. A ding dong is a ding dong. When you hear repeated dull thuds / gun shots and gargled screaming, then call the cops.
• Wow...there are some different opinions here... If you're still conflicted on this, how about, before doing anything, contact both the Elder Abuse folks AND the police and say, "hey, here's the situation, what has been your experience, and what is the likelyhood this will escalate." We're all responding from somewhat limited perspectives and sometimes isolated events, they will have a wealth of experience to draw from...
• Monkeyfilter: A ding dong is a ding dong Monkeyfilter: repeated dull thuds / gun shots and gargled screaming *eats a ding dong*
• Kit -- thanks for that. I've been laughing at your story all this morning. In the shower, shaving, walking to work... I wouldn't let them know if their fucking house was on fire now... Don't you share a common wall?
• Yeah, perhaps that was a bad example. I wouldn't let them know if I saw somone fishing inside their car door with a bent coat hanger. Better? I did once watch two traffic wardens slap a ticket on their car. Oh how I laughed.
• "Wouldn't piss in their ear if their brain were on fire" is one of my favorite sayings ... I'm with the "stay out of it but call Elder Care if it makes you fell better" crowd. If the woman comes to you specifically and asks for help, that's a different matter. It's ok to keep an ear out for signs of escalating violence, but it's not your responsibility to do anything more.
• "Wouldn't piss in their ear if their brain were on fire" I just needed to hear that again...
• I haven't called the Elder Abuse Hotline yet, because we all got sick this weekend and I'm still dealing with a snotty, upset toddler. However, I plan on doing so this afternoon. I'm not calling the cops unless the Elder Abuse Hotline suggests it (and I doubt they will), and unless I hear some hitting-type noises in the future. I've had the cops called on me for noise, and it wasn't fun, I agree. (That said, I am calling the apartments if I hear shouting in the future -- my daughter and I play outside a lot, and I think that yelling loudly enough to be heard through closed windows, when someone is several feet away from their door, is too much.)
• I have an anecdote which may or may not be helpful ... we used to live across the hall from a young couple we called The Bickersons, because they had many vicious screaming matches, with the guy doing most of the screaming. Mr. Koko, who has an impressive set of lungs himself, would throw open our door and scream "KNOCK IT THE FUCK OFF!!!!!" as loud as he could. The screamimg would stop for at least a couple weeks. In fact, the whole building would be very well-behaved for quite some time after. So if you or anyone you know can bellow louder than your gentleman neighbor, you might give it a try. There's much to be said for out-crazying the crazies.
• *buys gun* *twitches*
• OK, since this thread seems to be winding down - I'll add my little anecdote as well. The reasoning behind my original advice was based from an old experience many years back. I lived in large apartment community, and there was a couple in a unit to our backside that had frequent screaming matches. To my horror, I awoke one night to hear violent screams coming from outside. I looked out the window and saw the couple going at it in the parking lot. It was quite an ugly sight, which ended in near death. The woman ended up on the hood of their car, smashing her hands to the windshield while the man started gunning the engine of the car... she ended up falling off, and the guy ran over her legs, and sped off - - squealing tires and all. The police came - - and the woman was screaming in hysterics and in shock. Concerned neighbors were taken aback as she lashed out at them for having never intervened on previous fights. I was just a teen, but that stuck with me for some while - - horrible sight. Damed if you do... damned if you don't...
• MonkeyFilter: There's much to be said for out-crazying the crazies