My two favourite goths are King Cniva, who defeated Gaius Messius Quintus Traianus Decius, and Australian Prime Minister Goth Whitlam (afterwards deified).
Would anyone dare challenge my choice of goths? Yay, then let them produce before me goths they think mightier than these, and my goths shall defeat them - for behold! my goths are the goths of Israel and of Isaac, and thou shalt have no other goths before them.
Honestly, after reading that, how many of you did a google image search for "Gothic Lolita"...'fess up!
How d'ya think I found that article?
10 Then quidnunc said unto Plegmund: "Lo, thou art a worshipper of foreign goths, and thou hast eaten strange meats, thou weirdo".
11 And the people did listen unto quidnunc, prophet of goth, and they nodded and made murmuring noises of agreement, and so on.
12 Then said quidnunc: "Your goth is not very gothy, nay! - she is only as gothy as Robert Smith, which be not very gothy in mine eyes."
13 And the people said, "Yay, for how goth is Friday I'm in Love, eh? Not very!"
--Fourth Book of quidnunc, Chapter III.
YOU'RE NOT TAKING MY PSEUDO-INTELLECTUAL POST ABOUT GOTHS SERIOUSLY!!!
*puts on Batcave LP*
One of the few things I miss about my old job is the two fetching goth girls that were always milling about in the smoking area. I'll bet I tossed a thousand hopeful bon mots in their direction, and all I got in return were mocky snickers and the occasional staring contest.
Fes, you'll never get anywhere being a goth-botherer. So lay off the goth, or feel their gothy wrath.
You have to harmonize wavelengths of loathing, Fes. It's the only way.
I laughed at the idea of goth home decor, but then I saw Gothic Martha Stewart
It felt ironic.
Monkeyfilter: all I got in return were mocky snickers and the occasional staring contest
Amalasontha was as gothic as St Pancras. Look...
XIV (79) Now the first of these heroes, as they themselves relate in their legends, was Gapt, who begat Hulmul. And Hulmul begat Augis; and Augis begat him who was called Amal, from whom the name of the Amali comes. This Amal begat Hisarnis. Hisarnis moreover begat Ostrogotha, and Ostrogotha begat Hunuil, and Hunuil likewise begat Athal. Athal begat Achiulf and Oduulf. Now Achiulf begat Ansila and Ediulf, Vultuulf and Hermanaric. And Vultuulf begat Valaravans and Valaravans begat Vinitharius. Vinitharius moreover begat Vandalarius; (80) Vandalarius begat Thiudimer and Valamir and Vidimer; and Thiudimer begat Theodoric. Theodoric begat Amalasontha; Amalasontha bore Athalaric and Mathasontha to her husband Eutharic, whose race was thus joined to hers in kinship. (81) For the aforesaid Hermanaric, the son of Achiulf, begat Hunimund, and Hunimund begat Thorismud. Now Thorismud begat Beremud, Beremud begat Veteric, and Veteric likewise begat Eutharic, who married Amalasontha and begat Athalaric and Mathasontha. Athalaric died in the years of his childhood, and Mathasontha married Vitiges, to whom she bore no child.
*wipes away a tear*
I've always been too peppy for goth girls. They find me shallow and too cheerful by half. That and my love for Steely Dan esentially make me persona non gotha.
I was a peppy goth.
They why don't you and your people love me like I want to be loved, which is to say, in a very dirty fashion?
Not enough black in your wardrobe mate. I'm 36 and still dressed head to toe in black today.
AND BY THE GODS OF THE UNDEAD IT FEELS GREAT!!!
My favourite Goth remains General Electric, but even so, it was hardly the best book in the series.
Gray? I have lots of gray...?
nervously looks at bright sunshiny yellow shirt and blue tie with the little squares, plus the brown belt and shoes can't be helping a bit
Oh Capt renault I disagree - easily my favourite in the series
Dear Plegoth, what should not be forgoth
Is that true Goths did not bagat, they "begoth"
Begothing a lot was (to the Goth) never loth:
Oft Goth begoth Goth in the loft with the moths.
I usually wear all black. I have pale skin and often black hair. Am I a Goth? Or simply one who finds laundry day much less of a trial?
Parfaitement à jeun
Je reviens d'une belle fête
J'ai enterré Huguette ce matin
Parfaitement à jeun
J'ai fait semblant de pleurer
Pour ne pas faire rater la fête
Z'étaient tous en noir
Les voisins les amis
Y avait que moi qui étais gris
Dans cette foire
Perfectly sober,
I've just come from a great party.
I buried Huguette this morning.
Perfectly sober,
I pretended to cry,
So I wouldn't spoil the party.
Everyone was in black -
The neighbors, the friends -
And there was me, all gray
In this spectacle.
I'm a fan of plaid. I also have this really nice deep blue linen shirt.
I can't spell laryngectomy.
But I *can* say it!
Johnny Cash was goth? Who knew?
Anne Rice is still on the list? Didn't she found God or something?
Yes, apparently He was lost in a bit of purple prose and old lace outside Laplace, Louisiana.
Have any of you thought how difficult Goth was for mothers?
Safety pins.
In the clothes, the ears, who knows where else. But I was a good mother; I kept her in rags and safety pins and she was as miserable as any 14 year old Goth could be. Now she's in her thirties with countless and counting tats.
Goth forever no matter the form.
My old "goth" friends have slowly, but surely, faded into a pale reminder of grave rocking. Burn! Burn the flames!
quid, you forgot Yog-Sothoth.
Robert Smith is wrinkle-free?
I wear white on the outside, but black is how I feel on the inside...
Sorry, Morrissey...
*allows 45 Grave to beat up Morticia while Attrition stands by and watches*
Hey everybody! Lets have a good old fashioned sing-a-long!
I'm sure you all know the lyrics by heart!
Feel free to clap along!
Ah One! Ah Two! Ah Three!
White on white translucent black capes
Back on the rack
Bela Lugosi's dead
The bats have left the bell tower
The victims have been bled
Red velvet lines the black box
Bela Lugosi's dead
Undead undead undead
The virginal brides file past his tomb
Strewn with time's dead flowers
Bereft in deathly bloom
Alone in a darkened room
The count
Bela Logosi's dead
Undead undead undead
I always thought the best part of goth was driving the carts around the course.
Argh, you arouse in me a hankering to watch The Hunger, one of the all-time great vampire movies and a veritable goth-u-copia!
Maybe "The betht part of goth wath driving the cartth around the courthe," Queso?
Take my wife...please!
But... he had a girl's name!
"Bela" an oldie... oh man. So true. And yes, The Hunger is excellent.
Never fear!!
The Goth O Matic Poetry Generator is here!
Fes, this is the way to draw Goth women to you like flies.
Well, this, and being dead.
Night Ritual
Around, all around, the furies gather.
My dread grows as doom's scythe falls against my naked soul.
It severs me, and darkly my
essence drips
to the fallen despairing leaves.
In abject fear I flail madly
while Death's shadow laughs cruelly.
Now alone, my cascade of tears falls upon wailing eyes.
This is your love
Hey! Gothy, no?
This and much more at the deadlounge.com
i really don't lisp that badly, TP.
Do I?
Goth chicks can smell a dude "trying to pick up sexxy death babez" a mile away. The only attention most goths want from the way they dress is positive attention from other goths. They'd be more willing to talk to the guy in the yellow polo shirt if previous yellow shirt guys hadn't behaved like idiots. Strike up a conversation and prove yourself different. :)
Gothic Martha Stewart is my friend T. The site is not particularly ironic, though she doesn't take herself, or goth, too seriously. The site is an old one, made in the later 1990s.
I used to be goth. *shrug* On a day when I feel like admitting it, I might cop to still having a toe in the pool (the very black, black pool, ha ha), but that's in aesthetic terms. I'm not a member of the subculture anymore: too much effort to maintain the look, not enough stomach for the drama.
At any rate, I tend to still look at books on goth when I get the chance. I also tend to make posts like this when the subject comes up, and then wish I could make them under, like, another account. It's not that I necessarily find the subculture itself embarrassing; the embarrassing things are the widespread misconceptions of what it is and isn't.
Not many of the assertions in the article are necessarily accurate. Many academics who write about "goth" conflate a gothic aesthetic or sensibility with the gothic subculture (related, but not the same), and then try to say that the subculture has always existed. Well, no, it hasn't: what those essays tend to discuss is the fact that there are almost always bohemian types, particularly in urban areas. (Early in the article, Brottman assumes that her oddly-dressed students would agree their look is "goth." I bet plenty wouldn't: they'd likely insist it was "punk" or "arty." Goth has a PR problem, in that its perception in the world is usually either "evil" or "deeply silly.") This isn't a problem for Goodlad and Bibby - note that most of their contributors are supposedly actual goths - but it's a problem for Brottman and almost every other academic I've read who has not been personally involved in the subculture.
And I know dozens of people who would happily tell you that punk is far from dead.
Goth is really not as much of a teen subculture as journalists would have you believe; it's mostly a nightclub subculture and teens are necessarily excluded (I think when we discuss "goth" we're discussing at least two subcultures, maybe more). Some of what is perceived as "goth" in teens and in the media is largely rejected by the adult subculture. Almost every single cultural reference in this article is incorrect for the adult subculture - most are "things that many goths might like" but that few goths would label as, well, goth.
That's complicated by the fact that the adult subculture has been in a state of transition for several years. "Cyber" fashion & music has become a major presence in the scene (to the effect that many "goth" clubs now cater mostly to the cyber/industrial side of the scene), there has been societal fallout from Columbine and 9/11, etc.
Voltaire (as linked above, not the 18th century writer) is probably the only published author on the goth subculture who seems to "get it." Mick Mercer comes close, but is a music historian with some specific prejudices.
I've seen Catherine Spooner's book recently, but it wasn't much about the subculture at all, even though I suspect Spooner is involved in it. From what I saw of it, she had some interesting stuff to say about the gothic aesthetic.
I'm really going to hate myself in the morning, for writing this. (But at least Kit now has some of the desired pseudo-intellectual commentary to go with the post! ;)
I'm really going to hate myself in the morning, for writing this.
Well I'm glad you did: in fact I'd welcome further enlightenment on the subculture vs aesthetic issue.
Goth is really not as much of a teen subculture as journalists would have you believe; it's mostly a nightclub subculture and teens are necessarily excluded (I think when we discuss "goth" we're discussing at least two subcultures, maybe more). Some of what is perceived as "goth" in teens and in the media is largely rejected by the adult subculture. Almost every single cultural reference in this article is incorrect for the adult subculture - most are "things that many goths might like" but that few goths would label as, well, goth.
I think the same can be said of any subculture/aesthetic movement
Can goths be the new nascar dads?
They'd be more willing to talk to the guy in the yellow polo shirt if previous yellow shirt guys hadn't behaved like idiots.
Ouch!
I have a dream that one day a man will be judged by the content of his character and not by the colour of his polo shirt.
Never going to happen.
And even if it did, they'd still be judged by the propped collar.
It wasn't even a polo, polos are for driver's ed teachers when they go "out on the town" on a Friday night. It was a nice windowpane buttondown.
Goth-fucus he say - When in hole, stop digging.
Hmph.
I'm wearing pants.
Me too! Black ones!
So is this a case of "Don't judge me by my black clothes, heavy dark mascara, and pagan religious symbols, as I know how all you freaks wearing yellow Polo shirts just LOVE to do that" ?
Sure, sterotypes are bad, but they save so much time....
Play up and play the game, m'boy!
I have a dream that one day a manperson will be judged by the content of his character and not by the colour of his polo shirt.
One of the myriad unfulfilled promises of the interweb.
/cant think fer teh squee
I'm wearing pants, but no underwear.
me too!
Have I ever mentioned that pants feel comfortable?
I thought that was what all kittens dreamed of.
What's a windowpane shirt? Sure, I could google it, but I feel confident I will get a better, more rounded answer from Fes.
Just as Fes would have been a better, more rounded date.
Sniffle ... when I was a lass ... so long ago ... we'd go to the Tech Union and watch the Goths ... pure theatre ... the clouds of lace, the pints of snakebite, the skinny boyfriends ... always ended with someone in tears. Better than Ibsen.
A bit of gothic gardening might be nice? Or some punk knitting? Now that I'm - sob - getting old.
What's a windowpane shirt?
It's got thin vertical and horizontal pinstripes that cross each other to form rectangles that resemble...wait for it...
Yes, that's right.
Martha Stewart Goth? Gothic gardening?
I though Goth was supposed to be don't-give-a-damn and anti-social.
These people sound like a bunch of middle-class old fogies.
cross each other to form rectangles that resemble...wait for it...
Plaid?
Yeah, that's just plaid.
Not plaid :) The lines that delineate the panes are thin. The shirt I was wearing today looks almost exactly like this.
Plaid?
Yeah, that's just plaid.
Philistines!
Also: I'm not that rounded.
south beach + no sleep + hard liquor + the very real possibility that this whole house of cards that I've manufactured out of burrowing-animal hard work, kleenex, chicken wire and bullshit will come crashing down in a smoldering little heap
Oh, I get it.
It's a kind of plaid shirt with thin wimpy lines and without the ooomph of real plaid.
MCT, Philistines wear basic white tunics. Pretty blah.
The day you catch me in a tunic plaid, you can beat me like a red-headed Scot's stepchild.
I know of a late "yellow polo shirt guy" who was completely accepted & loved & mourned by ppl on a goth IRC channel that he frequented. He went to clubs in his yellow polo shirt. (I didn't know him personally, so this is all I remember about him, but I was thinking of him with "YPS".)
The main thing - if the girl in question is a person worth knowing at all - is to talk to her like she's a person and not a curiosity.
*
I'd have to think more about the aesthetic vs subculture (sc) issue. I know that part of the problem with "the media thinks this is part of the subculture, but it isn't" is related to the aesthetic and to people interested in certain things that seem similar on the surface appropriating the label themselves. There are also a lot of regional variations (US, UK, and Italy all have very different scenes, for example). And there's the issue with religious fundamentalists stirring up "goth panic" for their own reasons.
The sc, as I know it, has post-punk roots. There's another faction that may listen to music that's only related (like Dead Can Dance), but is into the elements of the aesthetic that are accepted by the sc (in dark colors, historical, decadent, bohemian, melancholic, etc). Industrial music, and synthpop variants of it, eventually became a major part of the sc too & currently dominates US clubs.
A lot of other things (Marilyn Manson, vampires, black metal, BDSM) seem "goth" on the surface, but aren't synonymous with it. Goths aren't precluded from liking those things, but if they're the main reason those people call themselves goth, they won't be accepted by the sc @ large. (Yes, this is ironic in several ways... sometimes these people form sub-scs.)
The point is, these people won't see their tastes catered to in most clubs, and they can't usually post about those tastes on a longstanding internet forum like alt.gothic without someone making fun of them. BDSM is the exception - in that case, a lot of people in that sc are supposedly annoyed to be confused with goths.
It is a truth, universally acknowledged, that no two goths will agree on a
definition of anything even remotely connected with their subculture.
I'd need more time/space to formulate thoughts about the historical aspect, but I think I mean that Byron wasn't a "goth" in terms of being a member of a supposedly existing "gothic sc," even if many goths enjoy books with Byronic heroes. Fonthill Abbey may have been involved in the architectural Gothic Revival, but that doesn't make its builder a "goth" in any sense of the term (partly because the name of the sc doesn't really come directly from the architectural style). Etc. Some academics suggest these things.
*
Re "middle-class fogies" - don't confuse goth and punk (punk being "don't give a damn" and "anti-social" - except about politics). Among adults, goth is mostly a very middle-class thing. It's not cheap to try to live (or at least outfit yourself and your home) like an archaic aristocrat, though having DIY skills can help, and I think most goths into that style thrift a lot. (One of my friends has a big DIY page.) The cheapest steel-boned custom corsets I've seen cost over US$100; $250 is average; a $60 corset from Frederick's of Hollywood sometimes gets the wearer mocked behind their back. Cyber clothing is mostly hella expensive, too.
Anyway: An Early History of Goth. Vlad's a.g archives (more Take A Bite, also Perkygoff Manifesto). InstaGoth Kit (here's where the irony is hiding). Nikolai Kingsley's Gothic Stuff (the "stereotypes" are funny & accurate).
Hah! There can be Monkey Harmony: I've heard it referred to as both "windowpane plaid" and "windowpane check."
See, there's enough candy for everyone!
It's a kind of plaid shirt with thin wimpy lines and without the ooomph of real plaid.
Precisely.
Some wear leather
Some wear lace
Some wear make-up on their face
Some are young
Some are old
Some too hot and some too cold
Some are poor
Some are rich
Some so lonley and some they bitch
Some are lovers
Some friends in bed
Some have listened to the things we've said
Am I understood?
If I could I would tell you how I feel
Oh strange and change
If I drift away, is it to real?
Do you understand?
It goes on and on
Do you understand?
It goes on
Windowpane shirt? Surely the lines should be doubled to indicate frames surrounding the panes. That, my dears, is in fact a tic-tac-toe shirt, or in the Land of UK, a noughts and crosses shirt.
It's a kind of plaid shirt with thin wimpy lines and without the ooomph of real plaid.
Precisely.
Yeah, Fes!
He takes his teasing with a suave and dapper demeanor.
Careful, Minx. The more you define them, the more I'm beginning to think Goths is just folks.
Some of the teen/young adult Goths I know might not like that, being as they want to be all...Gothy and stuff.
*rootles around in candy bag looking for the ones with the creamy chocolate center
Hmmm, maybe I'll start calling my diagonal-plaid skirt "mullioned."
I knew Fes would explain it. They appear to call it "checked" on that site, but it doesn't really seem checked to me.
Also, quite dapper.
Yeah, pretty much "just folks" - albeit often arty/pretentious/hipper-than-thou, depending who you are, who they are, and everyone's mood that day. (And teen rebellion is teen rebellion regardless of subculture! Heh heh.)
The most goth person I've met in the last few years is also a devout Baptist who's been with the same girl since junior high (about 20 years, now). And a nice guy.
It's my experience that post-teen goths are usually pretty polite to anyone who's polite to them, and yes, the subculture is accepting in the "different races/body-types/sexual-orientations" way like a lot of recent articles are saying, but there's still a bunch of drama over other issues. Not Jerry-Springer-Show-level drama... but much more than any other music/fashion-based subcultures I know of! That drama is club-and-internet-centered, though.
It hasn't been "cool" to be goth in years, but a lot of the current modern rock scene definitely appropriates a goth aesthetic - from bands like My Chemical Romance (whose visual side is goth-friendly, while the music isn't goth at all) or The Used, to bands that genuinely sound like early/proto-goth or "art rock" bands, like Interpol and The Bravery and She Wants Revenge. (To me, The Bravery's first album sounds just like The Cure circa Pornography. But not all goths think The Cure is or ever was a goth band, and there are tons of Cure fans who have never been goth.)
I've probably already devoted more space to the topic than it necessarily merits, at least around here, but some people might be interested to check out this thread from Teh Blue a few months ago. There are very good definitions of "goth" there, like "[Identifying as goth] only means that I consider all clothing costume and all behavior theater."
The Cure's Pornography is pure goth.
I fucking love it. I also always burst out laughing every time I hear the line 'Leave me to die, you won't remember my voice...'
What's not to like?
Minx: I work on the principle that most folks is "just folks" although I also believe that folks is strange, except me and thee, and I'm not sure about thee.
I can handle tattoos, although I think they're mostly ugly, but, unfortunately, I do have a problem with piercings--especially when someone has numerous (8-10) gizmos on their face, tongue, chest area, or neck, or an extreme (painful looking) barbell somewhere. I do try not to stare or react, although I think my feeling must show, because some people act offended. This puzzles me, because I think anyone who does this to extremes must be going for some kind of reaction--either euwwwww from the fogies, or way cool from their own generation. I would certainly never refer to them as freaks, even though they seem to use the term freely.
But my main question about all the holes is: wazzup with that?
Now I wear (fairly conservative) earrings, as do millions of women, but I choose them to assert my personality. Some are horses, some are pretty, some sparkly, but they're (mostly) different and individual and say something about me. Rings, studs, and barbells all look alike to me, and everyone has the same stainless steel look, so how is that asserting your personality?
GRAN'MA WEARS EARRINGS SHOCKA!!
...so how is that asserting your personality?
I've learned that no one wants to be alone. Individuality is a joke perpetuated by the marketing industry to influence people into starting or appreciating trends in order to sell products. Hence the uniforms that people decide to affiliate with; some support this scheme, some rebel against it, others find a disgruntled medium. In the end products are still being sold. Sure there are choices between one group and another, but these are also support groups for a transient society. Many people change their colors when they change locales, some find a niche and some start one. That we are unique will never be displayed by clothing or accessories. I also learned that as much as I like the belonging, I prefer to sleep, or at least wake up, alone. At this point, that's also the way I want to die. There were way too many people in that room when I got here, and one of them smacked me.
I also learned that as much as I like the belonging, I prefer to sleep, or at least wake up, alone.
*tries to come with some assertion of said statement's validity*
*tries to come up with a counterargument*
*fails, gives up*
Hm. I'm not sure that many multiple piercings are "assertion of personality," and it's not a look I've ever been in love with myself. Though, to address the topic of this thread, there are plenty of minimally-pierced goths and plenty of very pierced not-goths.
Ppl who have any questions about body art could visit BMEzine.com or the rec.arts.bodyart FAQ. There are also a bunch of books out there about street style, subcultural styles, and body art. They're written by experts & more helpful than me. :)
There are reasons people get piercings, from "it's just jewelry" to "adrenaline rush" to curiosity, aside from potential image reasons. Many who get a large number of piercings eventually tire of them and take most of them out. Some don't. A lot of piercings take themselves out (that is, the body rejects them). There's actually tons of variation in body jewelry, within certain parameters.
However, I'm never sure that any element of personal adornment has much to do with any cry for attention per se... I've always thought it had something to do with self-esteem. Most ppl probably choose to wear weird makeup or hair or 20+ piercings because it looks right to them and because they feel good in it. (That's why I did it - I felt actively uncomfortable, & like I looked foolish, if I tried to wear anything but my wacky goth outfits and makeup - and quit doing it when it started to make my skin crawl.)
De gustibus non disputandum est.
It'd be naive to say that nobody is trying to "shock the Normals." On the flip side, if not for identifying subcultural dress norms, it'd be awfully hard for goths, or punks, or whoever, to meet each other in a bookstore or cafe or record shop (anywhere that isn't a nightclub). That's what I meant by "Goths want positive attention from other goths" - many also appreciate compliments from "Normals."
I got a lip piercing some time after I stopped being conspicuously sp00ky, solely because I'd seen lip piercings on other people and thought they looked cool. I looked "arty" but not like I belonged to any particular subculture. I had the thing for 3+ years and only ever got frequent positive comments on it; the same with my various unnatural hair-colors. Even my mom liked it, though she preferred my natural hair and no piercings.
To me, the labret was just jewelry... after it healed, I gave no more or less thought to it than anyone else would have to a basic ring or necklace. I just wanted a little rhinestone between my chin and my lip, in the same way that some people might want to buy a sweater that they see in a magazine, or in the way that I like other styles of jewelry today. There was a mild fascination until I had it, and then it had all the symbolic weight of a pair of small plain gold hoop earrings.
But I had only that single piercing and one hole in each ear: not really over-pierced. When I met my best friend 13 years ago, she had something like 23 piercings in most of the common locations. She has none now. They came out one by one as she disassociated herself from the goth subculture; she did that because she was tired of drama and wanted a lifestyle change. She wanted to look more professional, and they didn't remind her of a good time in her life.
Also - yeah, I agree Pornography is a huge moment in goth music. Robert Smith needed a hug and some ice cream! I can't read those lyrics without giggling, nor can I think of a single other "classic early goth record" - Floodland? Hyaena? Unknown Pleasures? The Sky's Gone Out? - that is so bleak and mopey. And Ian Curtis killed himself!
However, I'm never sure that any element of personal adornment has much to do with any cry for attention per se... I've always thought it had something to do with self-esteem.
I've never before heard anyone make the assertion that those were two separate issues.
*tries to come with some assertion of said statement's validity*
Kafka used to say that waking up was the most dangerous part of the day, anything could have changed overnight - you might wake up as a giant cockroach or, perhaps, be subpoenaed for an unknown reason by an obtuse bureaucracy. Personally, I prefer to wake up alone rather than face the unknown with someone else. Maybe it's radical empiricism?
And now... back to the show.
MonkeyFilter: Tons of Variety, Within Certain Parameters
"shock the Normals."
*narrows eyes
Just WHO are you calling Normal around here?
Be very careful with that answer.
Meh. I am a "Normal". ;)
As far as the other question... I think there is a difference between feeling confident and seeking attention, but maybe not for everyone. Is "confidence" necessarily "confidence that all attention received will be positive"? Hm. I dunno.
Oh, wait!
Yeah, if you compare me with THOSE weirdos, I guess I am pretty Nermal.
*straightens up, starts whistling "Colonel Bogey's March (Bridge Over River Kwai)"*, walks away with head high
8*get the ringtone here
A ringtone, who knew?
That weirdos exist is normal, therefore weirdos are normal.
I'm at the top of the bell curve, sliding down into weirdness.
I don;t think that self-esteem and self-confidence are necessarily the same thing. (Although of course there are overlaps, I would never use the terms interchangeably.)
Mmm, grey areas.
Someone with true self-esteem would call them off-white areas.
BlueHorse: I thought Goth was supposed to be don't-give-a-damn and anti-social.
That was before Gothic Miss Manners. She changed everything.
"Look at 'em," said Granny Weatherwax. "All in black, again."
"Well, we wear black too," said Nanny Ogg the reasonable.
"Only 'cos it's respectable and serviceable. Not because it's romantic."
So Kit, MoFi meetup in Whitby this October or what?
Ah, damn, I got my fictional Grannies all mixed up and thought I was finally going to have a chance to legitimately link to the Responsible of Brightwater Paper Doll.
Also, I'm not sure of the degree of grayness regarding "esteem" vs. "confidence."
"Confidence" describes trust in or reliance upon, while "esteem" describes a value judgment. I can have confidence in myself (i.e., I know what I can do, I'm not afraid to tackle things) without necessarily believing that those skills/abilities make me a good person whom I like. I can also think that I am a great person, while believing that there are a lot of things I can't do or am afraid to do.
Debate "esteem" vs "confidence" all you like, but not to the extent of putting words in my mouth, please. :) Not to say that you're doing that, just that to me it seems kind of a potaYto/potaHto kind of thing in terms of the way the discussion is heading! When I said what started it, I was specifically thinking of the kind of self-esteem OR self-confidence that comes from feeling comfortable in your own skin. In this instance I used the terms interchangeably, but others can use them in the ways most useful to their own meanings, of course. :)
Gothic Charm School (can't be called "Gothic Miss Manners" anymore, because she got a nastygram from Miss Manners' people)... man, I think that site shows, more than anything, that what counts as "polite behavior" in the American goth scene is sometimes still pretty darned catty and rude, or at least prickly, when compared to "politeness" elsewhere. IE, the suggested alternate behaviors would still not go over well with a lot of people outside of the scene.
It's not about the character of the person who runs the site, either - she seems like a cool person. She's accurately reporting some of the behavioral norms of the scene, at least the club scene. However, the last time I looked at that site, a lot of what she writes seems geared towards encouraging the more drama-and-misbehavior-prone end of the scene, along with those newly-goth teens who are mad at the world, to conform to a minimal standard of politeness. They're realistic standards rather than idealistic ones. Plenty of people behave better than the "acceptable standards."
(Nor is any of this to say that I was never personally catty or rude in my goth days, just that with the perspective of distance....)
I think the middle-class-ness of the less-punky, non-metal end of the goth scene definitely pre-dates the Gothic Miss Manners column on gothic.net, though. Ted Polhemus's book Street Style, from the mid-1990s, discusses an early-to-mid 1980s split in London between "goths," who were more punky, and "gothics," who were more into dark Victoriana and tended to look down on the "goths." It seems like the division was there almost as soon as the scene got its start.
On normality, that's gotta be relative. (To Furries. And Adult Babies. And so on.)
verbminx, I must say I've really enjoyed your posts to this thread-- illuminating, well-phrased and to the point.
Since about the turn of the millennium, I've become somewhat involved in the UK Goth scene. I view myself as more of a general all-round weirdo than a specific Goth, but there have been occasions when I've been called upon to speak for the subculture-- for example, last time I was in Whitby, a few nice ladies stopped me in the street and asked me very seriously what this Goth thing was all about, really? Were we devil worshippers?
I think I just about managed to convince them otherwise...
I can't stand the description 'gothic' when applied to someone - 'o hai, I'm a gothic'. Gothic is a describing word, IMO, not a naming word. I was a goth, I liked gothic things, possibly, although I always saw it as an extension of punk, which I was too young for, but with better hair and and a darker slant.
I also believe that while Siouxsie was our high-priestess, Danielle Dax was hotter.
So there.
Oh, oh. It's still polite, isnt' it? They aren't disagreeing are they?
Break out the gothic weaponry!
I would never dare disagree with verbminx, as she writes longer comments than me.
Pallas - Thanks!
It has long seemed to me that the UK goth scene is actually a much more fun place than the US one. The impression I've had is that, although it sort of toddled heavily into cyber before the US did, the general tenor of the UK scene was a lot less self-consciously "serious" and "dark" than in the US. I've been to a couple of Convergences, and they were OK (I'm just not really great with large groups, and spent lots of time napping in my room), but Whitby has always sounded like a lot more fun. & it sounds like there are goth hangouts in parts of the UK other than dance clubs, which is not the case in most of the US.
Kit - What really sucks is how much I have to edit them to get them to fit. Then I run around for a full day thinking, "You know, people really don't need to know every thought that comes into your head" - even though I had to delete at least 1/3 of them - and get too nervous to check responses.
That, "Are you a gothic?" thing always bugged me, too. Goth goth goth. I mean, it seems clear that "gothic" is an adjective and "goth" is a noun! But I guess in a lot of areas, esp in the US, "goth" wasn't the term that was used for the subculture until the later 80s. (It was "death rock" - also the name of a resurgent punk/goth hybrid that sounds like first-wave gothic rock & is particularly popular in California these days.) By the time I heard of it in about 1988-9, "goth" was definitely in vogue as a term.
I checked that Polhemus book out of the library specifically because of this thread, and I was surprised to see that he was claiming sub-subcultures called "goths" "gothics" and "weekend goths" (or maybe Saturday Goths? the book is upstairs!), though I understood exactly which people he was describing with each term. I've never heard of actual goths calling themselves "gothics" - more like it's a misnomer wherein the name of the subculture is applied to the people in it by uninformed outsiders or newbies - but I dunno, I was like 6 when the Batcave opened.
Danielle Dax! In the well! In The Company of Wolves! Hott.
PS Pitchforks are what emo kids use to fight each other. ;)
You see? Another massive comment. Good on ya queen.
Goth has always been fun over here - we may have dressed in black and hung around Probe Records on a Saturday, but everyone I remember from those days was a top laugh. Happy goths. Whodathunkit?
I never went to the Batcave in London, as I was only about 14 when I started going out and it was still open, but in Liverpool we had clubs like Planet X, Jodies etc. Ah, cider and black, snakebites and poppers - good times, good times.
"You know, people really don't need to know every thought that comes into your head"
Yeah, that's a hard learned lesson. One thing I've been learning about the internet lately (mostly through email with my family) is that these types of conversations aren't dynamic; no one can cut you off or call you on your bullshit so it gives one free license to carry on down a line of reasoning that has little support, basis in reality or validity. Then, in the aftermath of posts, we all look like assholes.
The thing is:
Person A says, "I am a Goth."
Person B says, "I am a Goth."
Person A says, "Person B is not a Goth, because he sees things differently from me. But I AM a Goth."
Person B says, "Person A is not a Goth, because he sees things differently from me. But I AM a Goth."
Who gets to decide who's right?
We fight it out with fucking panstick of course.
Person C sacrifices them both on inverted pentacles and feasts on their flesh, then sulks over how much s/he misses them.
I love you guys.
posted by The Underpants Monster
Then, you can't be goth.
Umm -- idunno about that. It depends if her love is requited.
If not, she has to staple her hand to her forehead and sigh a lot. Then it's goth! ;)
(see? short post! short pooooooooost!)
(also, TUM is exactly right, in my experience, about the who-is-goth game, although there's also, "I, Person A, cannot stand Person B, therefore they cannot possibly be part of the same subculture as me. Let's go tell Person B's girlfriend that he's cheating on her, even though he isn't.")
Club Goth Med would be called Club Ded. Obviously.
Just couldn't do the single short post, could ya?
Goth is like a box of chocolates: half-eaten and tasting bittersweet of despair from a Baudelairean spurn from the eternal joke of life.
I could! Hypothetically, I could! It was a short post and an afterthought. ;) totally two separate posts!
*crestfallen*
There there, don't feel bad. C'mon, we'll put The Singles '79 - '83 on, have a nice cup of tea and some Hob Nobs. That'll make you feel better.
*seethes*
It's a jumbo pack of biccies, plenty to go round!
Careful Capt. I don't like my tea too strong.
I WILL KILL FOR HOB NOBS!
Er, these aren't Hob Nobs. They're just refills for my disc sander. Yeah, that's it. My tasty, tasty disc sander refills. I'm off to sand down this teacup...
*backs away*
*hides choccy Hob Nobs*
The (dark) chocolate ones are the best. Why do americans call milk chocolate "chocolate", and dark chocolate "dark chocolate"?
You can get Hob Nobs here, but they're about 3 times what you'd pay in the UK, and there's only one gourmet deli that carries them.
SOMEONE IN THIS THREAD IS HIDING HOB NOBS!
Us Brits call milk chocolate 'chocolate' and dark chocolate 'dark chocolate' too. I assume it's because dark chocolate bars / products are in the minority.
I want dark chocolate now.
*crams Hob Nobs down gullet*
*edges slowly out of thread with hands behind back
*senses a disturbance in the biscuit force*
The only real chocolate is the DARK one. Those light, milky abominations are nothing but fattening, unhealthy concoctions that don't deserve the label.
The white one is the antichrist of choco.
*thinks about cutting CHOCo on arm with x-acto, does it with blunt fingernail instead*
I agree. White chocolate is basically cocoa butter. If it's good white chocolate. Cheap white chocolate is basically vegetable fats and vanilla.
Dark chocolate is definitely the only chocolate, and those who need to water it down bring shame on the rest of us.
*admires Flagpole's impromptu tattoo*
*joins Lara & Flagpole in the Dark Chocolate Cult*
First rule of Black Choco Cult is... wait, that's another cult.
Just bow down and pass the 70% Lindt.
/me ponders a trip to World Market to buy some Hob Nobs, already. I think the grocery store also has them, in the "international cookies" section.
(TimTams are good too, but Arnott's sells them under some other name in the US. Also widely available at World Market.)
Yes, white chocolate is vile.
Dark chocolate...
...mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
Doesn't even belong in the same post.
How fitting that a post on goths should end up singing the praises of dark chocolate. I meant this to happen, of course...
I love the Dark Chocolate M&M's ad with the M&M's as the Addams Family.
Eenterestingly, in Italian, Goths are called "Dark".
Sad to say that my first (and second) reaction is to be very violent toward these little fuckers. I know it's futile.
roryk, I know... but, after the wave of rage passed, my second (third?) reaction was to hug a goth. We need to be good to each other, to look after each other, because the rest of the world sure as shit won't.
why pick on goths, they never hurt anyone except themselves...
/bad joke
I know what I'm making my next corset out of.Researchers in New York reported this month that they have created a paper-thin material that absorbs 99.955 percent of the light that hits it, making it by far the darkest substance ever made -- about 30 times as dark as the government's current standard for blackest black.
Black is the color of my true love's skivvies...
what color were they when new?
that is so cool...I want an entire nighttime wardrobe in that material!!
Could be used for the interiors of a Disaster Area stunt spaceship.
manperson will be judged by the content of his character and not by the colour of his polo shirt. One of the myriad unfulfilled promises of the interweb.a tunicplaid, you can beat me like a red-headed Scot's stepchild.