May 24, 2007

• As long as North American life is predicated on the car, and as long as manufacturers are willing to supply them, there will be a demand for bigger cars. This talk about 'I'm a big guy' or 'I'm hauling kids and stuff around' -- that's bullshit. There are plenty of other options available for that, and more likely than not, you're only hauling firewood and trailers around for a very small percentage of the time you're driving the thing. It has everything to do with showing off in the most public forum we have. It says "I can afford this", and "I am more important." As such, it's a competition, and for those of limited imagination, the only way to go is up. That it's all about image is backed up by the guy's speech about caring for the environment. Sorry, buddy, you don't. But you want to be seen as someone who does. I find it all fascinating, as (to make sweeping generalizations here) SUV drivers all came of age in the 70s, the time of the Oil Crisis. Back then, mockery of old men driving their boats around -- massive Caddies, Pontiac Parisiennes, Caprices, Thunderbirds, whatever -- these huge-assed cars that originally defined the 'gas-guzzler'. The people who now drive SUVs were the ones making fun of those people. Indeed, driving a boat around was seen as anti-social, maybe slightly treasonous -- the very qualities SUV drivers are accused of having now. Why the turnaround? I have no idea. Then again, the greater chunk of our lives that we spend in our cars, I can see why people want something more luxurious, safer, dominant, whatever. I can see why they cave. I'm able to walk to work again now, for the first time in years. It's a vast improvement. Honestly, it may be good for the environment, but that was just secondary to wanting to get the fuck out of that fucking box. I can see why people, if they have to stay in there, want a better box, and as big a box as possible. YMMV.
• And another thing, I don't know if others have found this, but I think the number of SUVs on the road has also changed driving etiquette. Given their hieght and power, the dominance of SUVs either directly or indirectly cause their drivers to become more aggressive. Not just in terms of speed or passing -- though that's certainly there -- but in the little things, like creeping up in the next lane, blocking the view of a normal-sized car which was there first, even though they can see overtop of that car anyway, and so 'stealing' the right to go first. Or taking up more than one space in the parking lot. Whatever, there are hundreds of examples. I can see that someone gets tired of losing out each time, and simply gives in to the new order out there. Not that it justifies the brashness, but I can see how someone gets tired of having to compete. Idunno.
• I get the best of both worlds: I drive a Smart car and carry a gun.
• Good point, Capt. I drive a long-ish commute, and while the only thing that really bothers me about the beat up '91 Accord I have is the possibility it might break down, the baby hates it. Then again, she hated it just as much when we had to commute with a coworker in his Land Rover while the car was in the shop. Hmmm... Also, I wonder if sales have rebounded in part because people are now used to high gas prices. Spending $120 to fill up your new, large gas tank isn't as much of an shock when you just spent $50 to fill up your small tank. Lastly, the Expedition guy is just an asshole.
• I drive two vehicles: my own full-size pickup and my main squeeze's Toyota Yaris. Lately I've been driving the Yaris to work (60km) for all the right reasons, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't prefer the roominess, comfort, and power of my truck. SUVs are similar (I've owned them in the past). Add in the fact that every now and then I have to carry big loads and the truck wins hands down. Plus, every culture has it's status symbols. If we're going to dump on one, we might as well dump on them all.
• What really surprises me is the number of people I know in my general demographic -- under 40, no kids (yet), and decidedly liberal -- who drive SUVs. I mean, they have no excuse. Not even a lame one. I do get a kick out of watching SUV drivers try to parallel park on the streets around my office, though. Unless I'm stuck behind them.
• It says "I can afford this", and "I am more important." Admittedly, there is a percentage of the large SUV market that honestly need one -- those living out in the country with need for high ground clearance and 4-wheel drive and so forth. But that's probably 10% of the market. My first job here was working for a bank, and our first winter, we got hit by an Arkansas blizzard (about three inches of snow, which pretty much makes the city shut down). The only two people who got to work on time? Me and a temp, both of whom drove wimpy-ass Saturn sedans. The head teller actually used the excuse that she didn't dare take her large 4wd Tahoe out in the snow. On preview, I must cop to what rocket88 said -- I hate that my mom bought a 12.5 mpg SUV, but damn it's comfy to drive.
• A nice, depressing read. Thanks! "And as a citizen of the United States, I'm concerned about global warming. It's not that I don't consider those things. We try to do as much as we can. We try not to drive that far." So, everyone else in the world just doesn't give a flip, eh? It's just us Americans who care? Yes, quite concerned, indeed... *rolls eyes*
• I was stunned on my last airport-run, when I discovered that SUVs were being fitted with the 'beep-beep-beep' reversing thing they have on transport trucks and construction equipment. Guy had to do an eighteen-point turn to get into the parking space...
• On preview, mct is certainly right, that there are people with a legitimate need for an SUV, as a work truck. Mind you, of all the farmers I know, most of their trucks aren't under twenty years old.
• Oh, you can always tell the people who use their trucks from the pretty boys. Everytime some redneck drives by me with a flawless paint job on his chromed-out Ram-yee-haw-Hemi, I think one word. That word is "sissy."
• My one set of two-kids-under-five-and-a-dog-and-an-hour-commute friends does just fine in their Prius. Their philosophy is, if it doesn't fit, it isn't important enough to bring.
• See, it's the disdain and negative assumptions I don't understand. So what if buddy doesn't "need" his SUV? We don't "need" single-family homes (which are terribly wasteful). We should all live in 1000 square-foot apartments. We don't "need" manicured weed-free lawns. We don't "need" vacations in the tropics. We don't "need" gold watches and jewellery. I could go on and on. If you choose not to have any of those things, that's great. But if you really didn't want them, I suspect you'd have less interest in psychoanalyzing the motivations of those who do.
• the WTF moment for me is in wondering how people who are basically good people end up buying such a huge contributor to environmental and public safety problems without worrying too much about it. Is there some question that SUV's are bad for the environment? Perhaps it's unknown that there are other vehicles which are also comfortable in the US$60,000 price range? Or are SUV-buyers just ignoranical assholic suck machines who deserve nothing but screaming, flaming death from above? (Present company, relatives, friends, that nice lady from work and others excepted, of course) On preview: I don't know it's a matter of needing it or not, rocket. It's just so unnecessary for most of the people who buy them that I wonder why & how they decide to do so. Gold watches aren't necessary but they don't screw up the world all that much either. (err . . do they? Maybe it is I who am ignorantical on that topic.)
• Well, the difference between SUVs and a lot of those things and the general reason for the kneejerk judgment is that it rarely occurs that tens of thousands of people die in a war fought over manicured weed-free lawns or vacations in the tropics.
• That was for rocket, of course.
• I don't think we would be, rocket, if fuel consumption wasn't so big an issue right now. I spend just as much time wondering about the motives of the manicured-weed-free lawn people myself. If the price of Round-up was skyrocketing, and one of the largest weedkiller-producing regions of the world was in the grips of war and political turmoil, and the herbicide companies were gouging record profits and screwing their employees while the CEO's got fat golden parachutes, I think I wouldn't be the only one, either.
• Remember, gas prices were down considerably in the first quarter of the year. Remember how their was bizarre speculation that they wouldn't go up again? Check out the graph at the bottom of the page.
• YMMV. But only between six and twenty odd to the gallon apparently. I never realised that. Even years back, my dad would think a car that didn't get over thirty to the gallon was thirsty. Is the difference between a US and an Imperial gallon that big? or is it MADNESS!?!!
• It is madness. This is what I'm saying. It's crazy crazy bull$#1+crazy. Uncle Toots, seriously, you don't need an SUV. Have you looked at the Corollas? They're nice!
• Also, the article shows that SUV sales are still down from 2005, and dramatically down from 2004. I really think that this is a fluke presented in a sensationalist way.
• Just shows how high gas prices would need to be to significantly improve mileage, and of course those high gas prices really hurt the working poor. It's far more effective to regulate fleet mileage, just like they did in the 70s.
• Look. I made a lot of money by using my smarts and worked hard to get that money. I drive a big car, very big, because I feel safer in it and it suits the image I want to project. If I can afford the gas, why whine because you can not? A guy is known by what he drives. You drive small and cheap? guess what?
• Yeah, you're all that matters. I forgot about that. The rest of us, the state of the atmosphere, the lives being laid down in the middle east, screw 'em. All that matters is that you get your fucking toy.
• I would only consider buying an SUV so that I could drive it 100 mph over your damn green and weed-free lawn. Make sure every time you see a SUV driver you hold your hand up with your thumb and index fingers exactly one inch apart and wave your hand back and forth. Means you think his vehicle's big, but his dick's tiny. Much less inflammatory than a flying bird, but oh, so satisfying. And what's funny is that most of the dumbasses give you that special 'queen wave' back.
• mr medusa and I just bought a Honda Fit. It's small, exceedingly cute, gets fantastic gas mileage (32/38) and last saturday we spent $1100 at Costco and we could have fit twice as much stuff in our cute little car. it has so much head room, leg room and all-around comfort, amazing storage versatility etc., (and it's so cute!) all for about $15k. so yeah, SUVs aren't really all that necessary for 90% of users. it's a status thing, and maybe a fiddling whilst Rome burns thing.
• we got the orange one. it's so cute!!!
• Congrats on the new ride, Medusa!
• *goes outside and pats his MINI on the bonnet*
• It's easy to snark on the SUVs, but reality's not that tidy. I have a SuperCommute (80 miles each way) and there's no possible way I could afford to drive an SUV. Instead, I drive a 1992 Honda Accord manual transmission which gets 38MPG. At that rate, at current prices, I average a $250/month spend on gas. I've polled three SUV-driving coworkers, and found that they have about the same monthly spend - albeit for fewer miles driven. It's one thing if you want to dismiss SUVs as ostentatious, that's your call. But gas consumption is based more on behavior than it is on vehicle specs. After all, an SUV doesn't burn any gas unless its driver makes it do so. And the next Accord you see in the parking lot may well have burned a shocking amount of gas to get there. (I'd be scared to have admitted my earth-unfriendly ways, but I think postroad already threw himself on THAT grenade.)
• It's hilarious to see them here. Parking must be a nightmare - let alone there are probably many many streets you can't even fit down!
• last saturday we spent $1100 at Costco What aisle did you buy?
• And the next Accord you see in the parking lot may well have burned a shocking amount of gas to get there. Absolutely. But imagine if that same person had been driving an Escalade. That'd mean three times as much gas burned. So yes, lifestyle matters. But matters more? No. Your point's absolutely granted that it's a complex issue, sure. In the US in particular, probably the greatest single problem is almost undeniably city planning -- the US is probably the biggest country in the world to do most of its growing up in the era of the automobile (with the exception of Canada, though population density tends to get a bit thin in the northern half), so everything is spread right the hell out, and most cities have no public transport worth mentioning. The thing is, we have little control over that now. Changing something that big will come painfully slow, likely over the course of generations. We have control over how long our commute is, to varying degrees -- though even that requires some fairly fundamental lifestyle changes, in many cases, or at minimum the unholy pain of buying and selling homes. But the one thing that's easy as hell to control is what kinds of cars we buy -- and, more to the point, what kinds of cars we demand. I see little reason why car manufacturers can't dedicate themselves to developing large, powerful cars that get 30+ mpg. The only reason they don't? We continue to buy the ones that get only ten. Period. Doesn't make fiscal sense for them to do the R&D if we don't demand it, if their business doesn't depend on it. As long as the predominant attitude continues to be like postroad's "fuck you, haters, I'm rich enough" comment above, fuel consumption and all its deleterious effects will continue to be a problem. Why is it so hard to look at the big picture when you're buying things? I like pretty stuff as much as the next guy, and I'm one frivolous motherfucker, but shit, when faced with the choice of burning $100 of gas a week versus $30, I simply do not understand how a responsible adult with a concern for the world his or her children or friends' children will inherit could opt for the $100 vehicle. But, if you'll pardon the repeated pun, YMMV.
• I totally forgot about hybrid SUVs. The Ford Escape, the Toyota Highlander, and the Lexus RX400h are the ones I know about. So the question becomes, why aren't people buying *these* SUVs? They're big, they're luxurious, and they get good gas mileage. Everybody wins.
• Parking must be a nightmare - let alone there are probably many many streets you can't even fit down! You should hear me swearing when I can't even pass one on my bicycle while they block up the alleys round here. I have said the odd intemperate things to the most egregious drivers.
• why aren't people buying *these* SUVs? They're big, they're luxurious, and they get good gas mileage. Everybody wins. Because not everybody wins. If you dress up as a gladiator or a stormtrooper or a Marine, you are not going to inspire much fear if everyone knows you have on frilly panties underneath it all.
• A guy is known by what he drives. Excellent! No point wasting time on the personality or education, then. Make sure every time you see a SUV driver you hold your hand up with your thumb and index fingers exactly one inch apart and wave your hand back and forth. This is an excellent SUV salute that I will cultivate - thanks, GramMa!
• You know, postroad, if you can afford the gas, great for you. Do you have kids? Do you have any kind of concerns for what kind of planet their kids will be growing up on?
• Because not everybody wins. If you dress up as a gladiator or a stormtrooper or a Marine, you are not going to inspire much fear if everyone knows you have on frilly panties underneath it all. perhaps not, bernockle, but some of us will be TURNED ON!!!!!!!!!
• But gas consumption is based more on behavior than it is on vehicle specs. I'd agree more if there were that many types of behaviors, but there aren't. At least not when talking about the group of car consumers. Stormtrooper underwear preference may be a wider range of data points, but I fortunately do not have that information.
• *fans self, has the vapors*
• Are we talking about rufflebutt panties again? because I'm ok with that.
• H2 sales down 27% from last year, model may be discontinued. Interestingly enough, also from SFGate.
• The problem is that the more stridently we push for eco-friendly alternatives like hybrid cars, the more vehemently Real Men feel that their Real Manliness depends on buying the biggest, most inefficient vehicle on the road. If only because it proves that they can afford the gas. Personally, I get excited whenever the price of gas goes up. The higher it goes, the sooner I'll get a decent form of commuter transit. Amtrak has a perfectly good set of tracks from Mount Vernon to Seattle. But the train only runs once a day, it leaves Mount Vernon at 9AM, and it costs like $20 each way. WTF, Amtrak?
• This is what we've become - Woman pushes baby while riding a Segway Oh sure, like you've never pushed a baby while riding a Segway.
• Amtrak has a perfectly good set of tracks from Mount Vernon to Seattle. Actually, no. Amtrak has no tracks, anywhere. One of the reasons Amtrak is so effed up is that their trains are guests on tracks owned by BNSF or UP or (who's left) -- and they always put their freight at a higher priority. Amtrak mainline trains outside the Northeast Corridor are routinely 18-20 hours late end to end because they don't get to use the tracks when they need to. And also employee morale (and therefore customer service) is dismal because they can't do anything about this and people blame them for stuff totally out of their control. Vicious death spiral. I think the railroads have had a good run of it over the last century thanks to over-generous government support, and now they're just acting against the national interest. They oughta be nationalized, for real.
• every culture has it's status symbols. If we're going to dump on one, we might as well dump on them all. Or we could dump on the most harmful symbols first? Though frankly you can take my necklace of human ears from my cold dead hand collection.
• It's simple. I earn 3.4 times a lot, and my IQ is 180. I drive a 6 wheel drive APC because it can carry my many mates, and I feel safer knowing I can drive through a house. Parking is no problem. I don't. The designated driver just drives around the block all day/night until we're ready leave. I can afford the fuel. A guy is known by what he drives. You drive a 'lady' car? Guess what!
• I vote for "screaming, flaming, death from above." If I get to push the button. Oh me me me me me, let me push the button this time, please, o great zeus ... !
• I drive a big car, very big, because I feel safer in it and it suits the image I want to project. Presumably this is also the explanation for your learned homepage.
• Zorgon, I was under the impression that the commuter rail service in the Northeast was pretty good, letting people commute by train into NYC and such. Is this just my west coaster's hazy grasp on what the NE is like? Or just a freak exception due to a limited, high-population area? I want trains, that's all. Trains! Buses stink, they just get stuck in traffic like everyone else. [sadface]
• No rail service at all around here (central NY). I'm lucky to have finally moved to where I can take the bus most anywhere I need to. My town is also buying hybrid buses and using biodiesel on some of the buses, but it's a rarity.
• mechagrue, I think you're correct! The Northeast Corridor (Boston-DC) is pretty good: they have the quasi-high-speed Acela now, lots of stations, and there's copious service that hooks into commuter rail and metro lines. If I'm not going deep into the burbs or the countryside, I don't bother with a car when I go out there any more. West of the Potomac though, things start to really stink on rail. Amtrak is not allowed into the commuter business so (for example) the San Diego-Santa Barbara rail line intentionally doesn't run at commute hours (sorry if this is jackin the thread). But the Bay Area is starting to get good rail service in some areas, and there's some down in LA, but not much. And interurban rail is all Amtrak which stinks for the reasons I mentioned before.
• Amtrak is not allowed into the commuter business? What kind of insanity is that? Never mind, I probably don't want to know. That explains why the MTV-Seattle line departs at 9AM. Can't have it look like they're trying to cut themselves a slice of that juicy commuter rail pie. (Which has been abandoned to rot.)
• It's upsetting, but we have a government whose official policy is to starve Amtrak until it dies, and commercial rail line owners who are going to keep stabbing them in the back to help them on their way.
• Well, I just sent an email to Sound Transit, politely asking that they extend the Sounder route north to Mount Vernon, and have it run more often while they're at it. THAT'LL show 'em! Seriously though, does anyone know a productive way to demand more mass transit? I bet there are a lot of people across the country who, like me, studied all their transit options and found they have no option but to drive. Housing bubble, economics, pocketbook environmentalism, etc etc. [lame attempt to re-rail thread.]
• Majorities won't "elect" to conserve. There has to be a financial incentive. Raise the tax on Gas. I'd like to see it at $10 a gallon. Thats the point at which I'll trade in my full-size pickup for a Prius. We won't get consensus. Self moderation doesn't work for large groups or highly disparate groups - and the car driving population of the US is both. If we want people in small efficient cars, we have to make it ridiculously expensive to not do so. Sure, the 'have's' will still 'have' and will still drive GMC Behemoths (and personally I hope I get to be among them - thats the human spirit - love it or hate it). There won't be a last barrel of oil pulled out the ground, same as their wont be a last nugget of gold. What there will be is increasingly expensive barrels of oil pulled out the ground and ever escalating costs to get them. Cars will become more of a status symbol not less... In the UK people drive small cars, because the gas is so fricken expensive, the road tax is monstrous , insurance rates go through the roof for larger engines, and everyone moans about it and hates 'the man' for it and looks at America with envy fueled derision. (after all they have bigger cars...) Unless and until the US is prepared to saddle itself with the same high costs, the environment will suffer, and alas, the political system here in the US just won't allow things like that to happen. Hence, I'll be taking my truck to work tomorrow.
• You're working on a holiday weekend?
• What a trooper.
• U.S. ‘stuck in reverse’ on fuel economy ... the number of vehicle models sold in the United States that achieve combined gas mileage of at least 40 miles per gallon actually has dropped from five in 2005 to just two in 2007 — the Honda Civic hybrid and the Toyota Prius hybrid. Of the cars available in Europe: ... nearly two-thirds of the 113 highly fuel-efficient models that are unavailable to American consumers are either made by U.S.-based automobile manufacturers or by foreign manufacturers with substantial U.S. sales operations, such as Nissan and Toyota. Diesel emissions can explain some of this, but 2 versus 113? Diesel engines aren't that common in Europe.
• the 'have's' will still 'have' and will still drive GMC Behemoths (and personally I hope I get to be among them - thats the human spirit No, that's a peculiar cocktail of greed and wankery. Many of the so-called "have's" drive fuel-efficient vehicles.
• Diesel emissions can explain some of this, but 2 versus 113? There was a slow market shift somewhere after the compact craze of the '70s, when it was very common to see cars get upward of 30 or even 40 mpg. Problem was people gradually started wanting safer cars (more weight) with more room and more extras (more weight) and better power for passing and climbing hills (more engine). Suddenly a previously 40 mpg car model found itself lucky to be topping the 30 mpg line. One of the big problems is we pay less for fuel than you do. If gas prices get up to five bucks a gallon and stay there, you'll see demand for hybrids skyrocket in the US, methinks. And that's what it will take for the big auto makers to market those cars in the US. I still have yet to see a Smart Car or Fiat Panda in the US, but you can't swing a dead cat in Italy without hitting one. I don't really understand the mentality, though. If you've already got the car in production, why not make it available in the US too? Large home appliance manufacturers (US companies) have done the same thing, making very efficient models for Europe and Asia but not on their home turf. I realize there's not as much clamor for them here as abroad, but why not try to sell what you're already making?
• Smarts will be available in the US in 2008. Two things holding it up: some problem that the NHTSA has with the bumpers (IIRC) and that they are gonna make it gas versus diesel to make it more appealing the the US market.
• If gas prices get up to five bucks a gallon and stay there, you'll see demand for hybrids skyrocket Nonsense. Americans are so inconceivably ignorant and self-obsessed that we'll pay up to $100 per gallon for the boring thrill of driving tanks in the street. I myself hope to destroy many small helpless things in exchange for the money to buy the 2008 FartCar; a 2,048 horsepower juggernaut with a top speed of 50 mph and an engine that laughs at efficiency with derision and superciliousness. (At the top speed, both exhaust chimneys open full-bore to allow giant bilious clouds of sulfur-smelling exhaust to pour out in concert with a foghorn-like flatulence noise that truly shatters windows.) Then, and only then, will I truly be an Ameri-man.
• Seriously though, does anyone know a productive way to demand more mass transit? I bet there are a lot of people across the country who, like me, studied all their transit options and found they have no option but to drive. I remember a conversation I had with two coworkers last year. I was happy that I had moved close to a bus stop. Coworker 2 said that she only took it in warm weather because she didn't want to walk three blocks in winter, Coworker 3 said, "Yeah, it goes right by my house. But I'm not gonna ride the bus; I'm a grownup now. I'm too old for that s**t."
• Sweet.