May 02, 2007

• Good for you for speaking up smt. I go back a few decades and I think it is this pack concept of violence that is changing and most scary. Balls always get bigger in proportion to the size of a male group. The inclusion of girls now in such totally freaks me. Have a big glass of cockpunch and try to shake it off. Your children need you intact. I'm so sorry they and you witnessed such.
• Horrible situation smt; no wonder it's on your mind. I think this first became an issue of social concern in the UK with the rise of what got called happy slapping. There's been a recent resurgence of football hooliganism too, but largely amongst mid-teens if what I recall is correct. I actually think in communities like where I grew up, it may partly be to do with a drop in the acceptability of violence amongst adults. In the past young people would have been more afraid of getting hit back harder and earlier. Other than that, been away from the UK too long to say much of any value.
• Kids having been doing that shit since I was a kid. One of the quests in Tony Hawk 2 is to ollie your skateboard off of a homeless guy 5 times. It's been "acceptable" since at least back then. Glad to hear you did something, smt. This shit happens because to many people let it go.
• I'm sorry, SMT, that you and your kids had to be subjected to this. I think the violence is escalating. I can't imagine this happening when my kids were small, because the whole freakin' town would have been willing to kick some ass. Even now, I would think that the majority of people would attempt to put a stop to it, either by notifying the authorities, or wading in. The beauty of a smaller town is that people know the kids, and word gets out on who's kid's a rotter, and they are watched.
• Seems as though the cops could have done more. They hand cuffed the victims, probably with the intent of hauling them in, but let the kids go. What kind of message does that deliver? Like dxlifer, I can say that things are a lot different from when I was a kid. There's a rant in my head about how today's "entertainment" makes random violence acceptable, but then again, I remember that my brother (12 years younger than I) took part in a school riot when he was in high school in the 1960s. He still talks about it occasionally, and it's not like "I can't believe I did that!", so maybe the tipping point happened that long ago, and the growth of depiction of violence is a reflection of changing mores rather than a catalyst. Maybe it's cyclical? (If I had the energy, I'd do some research, but the cat had a bad asthma attack last night, so there was a trip to the emergency vet in the next city, and waiting to hear, and picking him at too early in the morning, and dropping him off at the local vet, etc. I'm tuckered.)
• Good for you for speaking up! You've heard my history with this sort of thing, and I think what you heard that parent say is most telling. Parents in recent decades have become laxer on discipline. These kids have probably never been told "no" in their lives; they've lways been free to indulge any whim. When the whim to attack strikes, they don't see any reason to not indulge it in the same way.
• I also think it has to do with the contempt we show toward the homeless and those unable to protect themselves. Good reason to haul along your cell phone and call the cops. What was that damn parent THINKING???
• sugarmilktea - That's sure not the norm around here. Where are you?
• I don't have statistics at hand at the moment, but the general trend in Canada has been that youth violence has been decreasing since the 1990s. I'll see if I can hunt up something online.
• A memory of mine that has stayed with me occurred fourteen or so years ago. I was 23 and walking along in the small town where I was going to school. I walked past a kid who was probably ten or twelve years old. He said something like, "What the fuck are you looking at, asshole?" When I was a kid, I believed that every adult or kid older than me might kick my ass. Despite the fact that I never saw it happen nor heard of it happening, I somehow believed that it was a real possibility - if not likelihood - that I would get my ass kicked by an adult if I stepped out of line. The kid I encountered that day knew better. He knew I could not lay a hand on him. The kids in your story knew that the homeless men could not touch them. You could not touch them. The cat is out of the bag. Kids know that no matter how much they act up, no one is going to physically harm them. About six years ago I was going for a walk and passed a group of four kids -- none older than ten. One threw a bottle at me when I passed. They all laughed. I confronted them and wasn't even able to make them afraid. I thought about grabbing the bottle-thrower, taking him home, and telling his parent what happened. But I knew that the likely outcome of that would be for the parent to tell me to get my hands off of the kid and to mind my own business. I would not have been surprised if such a parent called the cops on me.
• We had a group of punks like this that was making the neighborhood a bad place to live. We worked with the alderman, the cops and slowly but surely each one of the punks was carted off to jail. Now the only time there's a problem is when one of them gets out. It usually doesn't last too long. They do something stupid and end up right back in Cook County Jail. (where I hope they end up as Bubba's Biatch ™)
• Well I couldn't find anything that summarizes it succinctly, but there's lots of good stuff in the 2005 Criminal Justice Indicators, a 200 pp. pdf available from: StatsCan Starting on p. 121 is the relevant bit. The crime rate is most closely tied to the number of people, particularly men, between the ages of 15 to 24 in the population. Since that group is in relative decline with the passing of the baby boom and the 'echo-boom,' we've seen an overall decline in all types of crime. There are other factors that they identify, of course. But this is consistently the dominant one. This is the age-group that commits most of our crimes, violent crimes included. This isn't to say that what you witnessed isn't troubling sugarmilktea. It is and we may have a problem with increasing teen violence, although I'm not aware of any statistics that really demonstrate it at least in Canada. However, these sorts of troubling experiences do need to be seen against a broad backdrop of generally declining crime rates.
• OK, I've found some US data as well that are more useful. The FBI has the US uniform crime reports available in a number of formats, but the interesting ones are on this page: FBI link. I had a look at the most recent data they have available on that page, unfortunately only available as an excel spread sheet violent crim.xls. It's poorly formated, but it seems clear from the numbers here violent crime rate is decreasing for American youth (compare 2001 to 1993).
• This is an historical thing. Have read comments from mediaeval times; S.Pepys Diary, Dickens and so on. Greek writers, Romans. All commenting on the "riotous and disrespectful youth" of the day. Crime rates rise as Laws are passed to combat what is considered to be 'antisocial bahaviour' within that particular society. Fact of existance. In Victorian times, stealing even an apple resulted in child deportation, imprisonment in ship-hulks on the Thames, hangings and abuses of children that (supposedly) would horrify us today. If "The State" sanctions murder of it's "criminals" - including those designated to be children - then what do you expect? They have no security or safety and are left with only fear and anger. Similarly, drug and alcohol abuse has been with us throughout history. Another for instance: in Australia, the use of marijuana only became a 'criminal offence' in 1964. Interesting to note that the more rigid and militaristic the society, the higher the crime rate and the greater the incident of disaffected, displaced, cruel and/or opportunity/cause/effect of rise in numbers of 'psychopathic criminal youth.' (Nazi Germany, 30's/40's). If you have nothing, live in poverty and/or deprivation (emotional, mental and/or physical) and are thus branded as 'bad' it's not so surprising that a child or young adult will then think of themselves as 'bad.' When that point is reached, what do they have to lose? They are already 'branded' and it's almost inevitable that some will act out their anger and fear in so-called 'anti-social' ways. The fact that weapons are so readily available (in the USA in particular) makes it even less surprising that these weapons will be used to do as much damage as is possible by those who are the most damaged. Movies such as "Rebel Without a Cause" (in the 1950's) "The Blackboard Jungle" and so on, depict this sort of mob-mentality existant then. Whether individuals recall this or not, it was there and similarly feared. It has always been with us. Large gatherings of people, even Christian 'revival' meetings; generate this sort of 'flash-point' group hysteria. Violence is always a potential. View police action at peaceful protest meetings of the past. What occured at Waco for instance. Again, it's hardly surprising that violence will result. Fear generates anger, which generates violence. Who is afraid of whom? In any society where there is a non-specific fear-factor, anger and violence will happen. Human nature. Perhaps an aspect of "The Zoo Syndrome" (Desmond Morris)?
• I'd say it's a cyclical thing. Once read a local writer's recount of a bartender talking about how he saw this 'waves' of teenage violence and crime, as they got older; some end up in jail, some end up married, other leave. A few years of 'calm' pass, then the new generation starts running around... I've seen this in my own neigbourhood, little kids that start running in packs and getting in trouble, and yeah, this might sound like 'get-off-my-lawn'-talk, but the broken windows and fistfights and violent pranks of yesterday pale to recent events involving drugs, guns and major violent acts. And sometimes there's no one home to drag a nasty brat to for reprimand. I still can recall the feeling of energy that needs to be vented in those early, violent teen years, but yes, it's sometimes scary to watch the kind of attitudes some kids display; and it doesn't matter if the kid is a neglected dropout or has a 'solid' family. Some of my friend's kids, well... I blame videogames, YouTube and water flouridation.
• Looks like "Britain's top cop" shares your concerns. Also the lead story on BBC Radio 4's Today programme (though too early for them to post the link to the 8.10 interview on the web - it will be up later) Seems like a bloody stupid idea to put kids in care to stop them joining gangs - I can't think of anything more likely to make them join a gang ...
• If "The State" sanctions murder of it's "criminals" - including those designated to be children - then what do you expect? No death penalty and plenty of yob culture here in Britain. Also teenaged gangs: in London there's been a spate of murders of teenagers, by teenagers.
• The latest Unicef Innocenti Report came out in February and US and UK teenagers are the first and second most likely to engage in risky behaviours, which include unprotected sex, drugs, fighting, and so on. I don't have prior reports to compare with but it was a fairly significant finding, because it was all over the news -- I think it may even have come up on MoFi(?).
• Compulsory sports, two hours a day, six days a week, for all 11-18 year olds.
• And good on you for speaking up SMT. I think violence by kids against homeless people is probably increasing. Despicable shit like this is a contributory factor, but so too is our general attitude to the homeless.
• I have a lovely scar on my right eyebrow from the sovereign ring worn by the little shit who punched me about a year ago - he was in a gang who provoked the confrontation and would have beaten me to a pulp had I had a swing. I only got involved because the fucks had already pushed Mrs K to the ground. I boil with rage every time I think about it.
• JESUS you people are such morans. Whenever I post some of my peadophile links, you're all "WAAH WAAH WE GOTTA SAVE THE CHILDREN" and you have a competition about who loves the innocence of childhood most, and who would torture a sex offender with the most barbed wire shoved up-a the ass. Then, when the kids start throwing rocks at your tear-stained face, you suddenly don't understand why they don't give you no respect. Newsflash, victims-of-crime: you've already criminalised beating them up. What you people don't understand is that these little fucking assholes you call "children" or "kiddies" or "boo-boo widdle piddle bunny shnooks" are actually programmed to REPLACE US ON THIS PLANET. They are USURPERS to our throne of being I.E. they are a THREAT, and should be treated as such. Just remember that next time you're scooping up your kid's turd and wrapping it in a copy of the Rights of the Child Convention and taking pictures to post on flickr, "OOOH LITTLE MATTHEW'S GOT HIS FIRST COMMUNICABLE DISEASE, HOW SQUEEEE!!!!" Idiots.
• HOW'S MY TROLLING? CALL 1-800-NEWCHY.
• Any little kid who fucks with me will be dealt to with extreme prejudice.
• Several years ago MCT and I were walking down a street in his generally quiet, peaceful hometown and some guys drove by and threw, no kidding, a loaf of bread at us. Hit me right in the ass. They yelled something like "fat bitch" too -- MCT insists it wasn't "fat," gallant that he is -- so we know they did it intentionally. Officially it disturbed and angered me, but a loaf of bread? Still makes me laugh. Which has nothing really to do with what you saw, smt. I don't know all the numbers, but my guess is it's nothing new -- packs have preyed on the meek and weak since history began. I hope the homeless guys at least got some medical attention after the cops uncuffed them?
• Was it a clown car? Cause the story makes more sense that way. One was probably saying to the other "Oh! Pickles!" or something like that.
• That's it, I'm going to become Batman. Who's with me?
• Seems as though the cops could have done more. They hand cuffed the victims, probably with the intent of hauling them in, but let the kids go. What kind of message does that deliver? I'm 100% certain that the cops were planning to haul the homeless victims away. In fact, the man who was briefly knocked unconscious and was struggling to get to his feet - was yanked up like a rag doll and thrown down to the ground again by the police. My coming forward and telling the story most definitely "switched the tables". A couple of the cops even had the look of disappointment in their eyes that I was standing up for these "social castaways". I could hear them debating what to do, "should we charge them with drunk and disorderly conduct? Is this guy telling the truth?" Luckily, the officer who took charge of the situation was very level-headed, and realized I had no reason to lie. I was pleased when they took the cuffs off all of the victims - the one guy with his face split open was struggling on the bench with blood running down his face. The message sent to the kids? I put myself in their shoes and this is my take: Yeah, I'm pissed that the cops detained me. But they let me go. I can get away with this again if I want to. That's sure not the norm around here. Where are you? NYC. Specifically, Queens. Which would come as no surprise that there would be large groups of young men grouping together and causing trouble. Still, quite unexpected for my neighborhood, as it's a relatively quiet residential area. I guess what shocked me the most was their young age (i.e., not 14, 15, 16... but 12, 11ish). Balls always get bigger in proportion to the size of a male group. The inclusion of girls now in such totally freaks me. There were a few girls included in the group. Initially, they were "supplying" what ever was being thrown at the victims. They seemed to enjoy seeing the victims being assaulted. I hope the homeless guys at least got some medical attention after the cops uncuffed them? Medics did arrive on the scene after they were un-cuffed. It appeared that they focused their attention on the man with his face swollen and split open. I left shortly thereafter...
• *gives quid a stone wrapped in swaddling clothes to swallow*
• fwiw: Child soldiers
• And as a follow-up . . . Last night as I made my way home late from work, I approached the park and noticed that there was a large contingent of police officers. Sure enough, there were the same homeless men (this time, one was cuffed around a tree) and a group of some of the same kids. Exactly 24 hours later, and it appeared that tensions were still boiling. I shook my head in disbelief and went home. This time, I was staying out of it (and well, I didn't see what transpired).
• > their young age About 12 years ago, I was waiting for a friend on a street in Dublin and a bunch of 10- or 11-year old kids came along and started trying to steal bikes attached to railings. I told them to stop, they told me to "fuck off", I again told them to stop. Then one of them, who was about as tall as my hip, drew a little knife and started threatening me. I laughed and laughed until he lunged. Thankfully, I got hold of the knife and he ran off with his friends. But all of this happened in broad daylight in the centre of the city and I'm convinced that little fecker would've stabbed me if he could.
• The UNICEF press release is here, tracicle: UNICEF Innocenti Report (you have to click on the report to read the press release itself). Unfortunately they don't make a pdf of the report itself available free of charge, so we can't look at the figures (at least without heading to the govdocs section of the library). It's really hard to develop any sort of interpretation from what they provide in the press release.
• I think this tells you more about our societal attitudes regarding the homeless than a moral decay of the youth. These kids picked on the homeless men because it was perfectly acceptable to do so. They didn't pick on you because chances are the cops would have done something about it if they had. But the homeless? Everybody knows those people don't count. They do something stupid and end up right back in Cook County Jail. (where I hope they end up as Bubba's Biatch ™ Hey Aargh, we had a program here in Texas that you'd probably be interested in, but now the crybaby liberals think it's a "bad idea" to institutionalize child-rape as a form of punishment. I don't know what's wrong with this country.
• I think you're absolutely correct, Nickdanger. I mentioned the father who ran to the scene and claimed that his boy was attacked. After failing to get nowhere with that excuse, he then proceeded to justify the violence by saying, "they [the homeless men] don't belong here in our park!" It's a public park. Playground for the kids. Separate section with chess tables for the adults. Sure, maybe they had alcohol on their breath - but they weren't drinking openly in public. They were just minding their own business. IMHO, they have just as much right to be there as anyone else. If they were boozing openly, and disturbing others, then hell yeah - get 'em outta there. But that wasn't the case.
• I too, witnessed something like this on the A Train in Queens (maybe it's a Queens thing? Kids trying to be tough cuz they live in "queens?"). Homeless guy was sleeping on the train in the seat next to the door, The kids spent two stops trying to light his bag on fire, and when they reached their stop, each one kicked or punched the man on the way out. What was more disturbing is that some adults on the train were howling with amusement. (Ghetto fabulous style). The poor guy didn't even do anything. Just took each hit and then when they were gone, gathered his stuff back up, put it in his bag, and went back to sleep. On a side note, these kids are too young to understand how wrong what they're doing is (I know they know it's wrong and could get in trouble, but they don't realize the extent of the wrongness.) Case in point, when I was 14 I lit up a cigarette on the subway one stop before I got off the train. Several ladies started berating me. My response (and genuine train of thought) was "Fuck you bitches, I'm getting off at the next stop, what's your fucking problems?" I thought I was all bad ass, and proud of myself for defending my rights. In retrospect, if I could time travel, I would go back and kick the shit out of me. I don't even know how I thought I was in the right. It wasn't until I remembered this instance many years later, that I fully understood why the courts treat younger teens differently than adults.
• sfred, I have access to the details through university and I have a copy on this machine. I'm breakfasting with my kids right now (also checking my email, because I'm a bad parent!) but I'll look up the details later.
• I am listening to cds of Spanish while I drive during the day. If I am to believe one of the cds, there is a verb in Spanish that means "to have breakfast." Can that even be possible?
• "Hef breakfasted with Misses April-September on Tuesday."
• Cool, tracicle, I'll be interested in what you find. Neither York nor the U of Toronto have the report, which is pretty bad. It tells you how bad our university libraries have slipped in the past few decades here in Canada.
• there is a verb in Spanish that means "to have breakfast." Can that even be possible? That would be desayunar. Breakfast= desayuno (and AFAIK, the root of that word would be something akin to 'un-fast'; the first meal of the day that ends a period of, uh, not-eating).
• Just as in the english word, now I realize. Damn.
• That would be desayunar. Holy shit. I remembered spanish! Well guys, I'm off to desayuno!
• I'm with Nickdanger on all counts here. Especially those crybaby liberals! Sometimes you just want to smack some rape into those kids. The other day some drunk teens (I'll guess about 16ish) were accosting me and some friends in between barhopping as two of us decided to run up some slides in the local kids park. They mouthed off some things amidst threats of violence and I laughed at them and walked away with most of my group, which far outnumbered theirs. Unfortunately, one of my friends is a little eager to prove himself in violent situations when drunk. It was a real pain in the ass to drag a 30 year old away from a fight with these glue-huffing, night-train-chugging chilluns. I'm sure more than one of them would have attacked us (one did punch one of the males in our group - he barely seemed to notice) had we stayed around, but I think I still would have been laughing. The problem is: would they have picked a fight with a solitary old lady had she been in the park instead of us? According to the numbers of swarmings occuring on middle-aged and older women in the Greater Vancouver Regional District: they probably would have. I don't think there's so much of a difference in violence per se, as much as there is a difference in the statistical numbers of victim types chosen. If that makes any sense.
• That's my concern too Insolent Chimp. It's not just the elderly or women either - plenty of tales of single men being set upon from back home. I had an experience a bit like roryk's heading home after a football match. A mob of twelve-year-olds actually followed me a couple of hundred metres as I walked up to the train station, mouthing off and one even trying to swing a kick at me at one point. I remember turning round at that point and looking at them, load of snarly wee faces, and thinking what a no-win situation. If they went for I would have surely gone down, despite being twice the size of the biggest; if I somehow managed a Jackie Chan-type take-down of the lot, I'd have just hit a load of kids. I tried to look calm and I said something along the lines of how I'd been brought up to think it was weak and cowardly to mob up on people, but all I could really think to do was turn around and keep walking. Often regret I haven't used my time in China to become a martial arts master, so I could go home and open a fight club that taught secretly taught young'uns meditation, respect, compassion and self-discipline under the guise of being about violence skills. The boxing clubs and similar were a great influence in the community in my day. And if it didn't work, at least they'd kill you in one punch and get it over quick :D.
• Accountability. It no longer exists. Kids haven't been accountable for a long time. The state of things will continue to worsen because someday, these little fuckers will become adult fuckers and have run of the place. Some of those cops you saw probably used to be the same way as those kids. Now they get to do the same thing.....in a uniform. Fuck the fuckers.
• Some of those cops you saw probably used to be the same way as those kids. Now they get to do the same thing.....in a uniform. Why did 'I'm singing in the rain...' played in my mind why reading that... ah, bleak, yes.
• sfred, what I have is the overview, which is the file available on that website you linked. The raw data has been extrapolated from a wide variety of sources and I don't know that it's publicly available. The "risk-taking behaviour" referred to is the following: * Percentage smoking cigarettes at least once per week, aged 11, 13, 15: 2001 * Percentage of young people who have been drunk two or more times, aged 11, 13, 15: 2001 * Percentage of young people who have used cannabis in the last 12 months, aged 15: 2001 * Adolescent fertility rate, births per 1000 women aged 15-19: 2003. * Percentage of young people who have had sexual intercourse, aged 15: 2001 * Percentage of young people who used a condom during their last sexual intercourse, aged 15: 2001 * Percentage of young people involved in physical fighting in previous 12 months, aged 11, 13, 15: 2001 * Percentage of young people who were bullied at least once in the last 2 months, aged 11, 13, 15: 2001 The US and UK aren't as bad as the media makes out, not comparatively anyway (and I should know not to make such statements without justification), but they're average or above average for most of those behaviours. The US has the most teen pregnancies, and the UK has the most 15-year-olds reporting having had sexual intercourse. The sexual activity numbers may or may not be linked to teen violence, I don't know. The UK has the greatest number of 11, 13, and 15 year olds reporting having been drunk two or more times. The US is fourth on that list.
• Nasty incidents. My limited anecdotal experience of different countries and different institutions has certainly been that the more strictly a society punishes youthful misbehaviour, the less there is of it, and I believe there has been an historical diminution in severity here (UK)during the last 50 years. I suspect the aftermath of WWII is responsible: after the war, people decided they'd had enough of authority and austerity and wanted a long holiday. You could argue that something similar happened after WWI (or even after the English Civil War and Commonwealth). Part of that was a much more relaxed and less punitive society (with many benefits - having your behaviour effectively policed isn't an unalloyed advantage), but also yes, an increase in unrestrained youthful violence. No doubt eventually some other historical current will come along eventually and change the climate again. Perhaps the tide has turned already. Sharia law, anyone?.
• It's a weird measure, tracicle, but there may be supporting research arguing for grouping these results in this manner or perhaps they form a statistical cluster. If the latter, they really shouldn't name them 'risk taking' without other data to support the conclusion contained in the name. Of course, it's as much a political document as anything else, so conclusions need to be read in that context.
• Monkeyfilter: if I somehow managed a Jackie Chan-type take-down of the lot I thought the same myself. Mrs. SMT was quite worried at first, thinking that the kids would seek revenge against me for speaking the truth to the cops. I had to laugh, imagining these little tiny kids trying to take me down. But in reality, a pack of 20 little eleven year-olds can do a shit-load of damage if operating as a unit. Especially considering the explosive nature of violence they displayed. However, I don't think any of the kids seemed to notice that I was not speaking in their favor. They didn't seem to take any notice of me. Had the cops not arrived, I don't the kids would have restrained themselves. I think they would have left the homeless men for dead, and walked away laughing...
• ...if operating as a unit. Like locusts.
• maggots
• gnomes
• weaklings
• IS THIS A SHOUTING THREAD?!
• Nick, I'm not sure we're ready for that yet. Operating like a herd of piranas.
• OKAY
• Chinese high school students sharing violent video clips
• Boy, 10, guilty of beating homeless Army veteran