February 02, 2007

• 9lbs 11oz. I was huge.
• 9 pounds, 10 ounces. 22, 23 inches. A big baby, yes, but no super Tonio.
• Lucky 7-7 here. That was back when moms still smoked during pregnancy.
• Don't know about myself, but baby minda25 was 7 lbs 9 oz and 19.5" long. I have a friend who was 12 pounds at birth, which makes his wife nervous.
• 9 lbs. 6 oz. No clue how long I was, though I'm 6'5" now. I'm thinking this kid is the future of Lucha Libre. Somebody with some photoshop skillz should put a mask on 'im.
• I honestly can't remember.
• Don't know myself (adopted). Maybe I'll find out one day. My son: 7 lbs 6 oz My daughter: 8.0 lbs
• Mwah!
• 9 lbs. 7 oz. (or so). My friend Jimmy down the street was 11 lbs. They called him Conan in high school.
• My daughter was a wee thing at 6 pounds, 10 ounces. I have no idea how much I weighed at birth.
• 10 lbs., 3 oz. The doctor told Mom "Don't have any more or the next one will walk home." She tells the story of sharing a hospital room with a woman who was over the moon at finally having a six-pounder after giving birth to two underweights, and who alternated between treating Mom like a miracle worker and a circus freak. My 5'3" friend who married a 6'6" man (their wedding photos look more like First Communion pictures) had a ten-pounder, frank breach. Now THAT'S good filial-guilt-blackmal fodder.
• Not entirely sure, but I was over 4000g. My son was only 1380g, but being two months early, that is not surprising.
• Whats with all this pounds and inches stuff anyways, eh? Sheesh. Only Liberia, Myanmar (Burma), and the United States still use that non-metric gobbledygook.
• I was around six pounds (my sister was four!). My daughter weighed 7 lbs 15 oz. /still in "new mama bragging phase"
• I was 8lb, 2oz, 21 inches. and I am proud to be an amurriken, in good company with my freedom-loving comrades in Burma & Liberia!
• and I consider these excessive birth weights to be a legitimate excuse for child beating! damn...
• I wouldn't expect America's Stepchild to use any other kind of measurement!
• I was 7 pounds-ish too, but seems like everyone I know is having 8+ pounders. Stupid advances in maternal health and nutrition. *trembles in fear as July 27 inches closer, thinks about taking up smoking or meth or something*
• 9lbs, 11 ounces. I beat Captain R!
• Nah. I let you win.
• I have no idea. There used to be this lame plaque on the wall in the hallway that said all my stats, but since I type in the (gram) weights of neonates for work, the information overload has caused me to forget. I was lazy at birth, taking my sweet time and showing up 3 weeks late - in the summer. I get a guilt trip out of it every July. They don't let women go past 42 weeks now, at least around here.
• I'm the same as Mickey, 7-7, also back when smoking and drinking during pregnancy was the norm. But I turned incredibly chubby pretty quickly. And bald. My mom used to scotchtape a bow to my head so everyone would know I was a girl. Heh!
• I've no fucking idea. I was only young. About 7 lb I think...
• I was 8+ pounds but soon later got sick and lost a lot of weight, worrying my poor parents no end. My son was 8.7 lbs or thereabouts and quite long.
• I think I was eight pounds something, and #2 was some horrifying weight -- something I stewed on a lot during my first pregnancy. Kid #1 was 59cm (about 23.5in), 9 pounds 10.5oz, halfway between Lara and the Cap'n. Kid #2 was delightfully small at 8lb 7oz and 57cm (about 22in). I do lengths in metric but can't do baby weight in kilograms.
• wow, I used to think I had been a big baby, but DAAAAAAAAMN!! 8lb 2oz is petite by these monkey standards /reiterates intention never to have children
• 6 lbs 11 oz, 23 inches. Yes, I was freakishly proportioned. I was also born with nearly shoulder-length hair. My mother still has the picture they took in the nursery framed where the nurses took my hair, pulled it up, and tied it in a bow so I looked just like a Kewpie doll.
• I was born on Labor Day. For real.
• I was born on Mother's Day. My son was 10 lbs, 6 oz. He was 25 inches long. The newborn clothing we took to the hospital was too small. I struggled to get the onepiece over his head, then gave up. Until this year (4th grade) he has been the tallest in his class. Now some of the girls are taller. It was a c-section, after he turned and would not turn back. Mrs. Wax had some complaints before he was born.
• Like meredithea, I was around 6lbs. I also lost weight after I was born - apparently because the hospital wasn't feeding me enough. Mum said I was a very easy birth - she'd gone to hospital when she felt some cramps and then woke up around 3am when her waters broke, called the nurse, and they started to prepare for my arrival - but in half an hour I just decided I wanted out so I left. Doctor didn't make it in time, but everything was OK. My Dads Mum - who had had 4 kids of her own - was never able to put a nappy on me because they would keep falling off. All of the women in my family are pretty short so I surprised everyone by making it to 170cms tall. And here I am!
• I was born on Memorial Day, on Ralph Waldo Emerson's birthday, at Emerson Memorial Hospital. Beat that, my untranscended friends.
• Ahhhhhhhhhh... *kitchy kitchy coos all over the thread
• Aw, you look like a tiny boxer posing for a pre-fight photo, gomi!
• Heee! Probably sums me up really... (~_^)
• Aaaaaaand in the othah cornah, weighing in a six pounds, no oun-ces, in the white nappies -- baaaaaaybeeeee-face GOMI!
• That is like the squeetest baby picture ever.
• Babies!! Squeeee!! Also squee to SMT's baby pics!! And a lot of exclamation points!!!! I was a runty 6lbs 13oz at birth, which-- let's just say-- you would not think to look at me now.
• also lost weight after I was born - apparently because the hospital wasn't feeding me enough. If it is any consolation, most babies lose 5-10% of their birth weight in the first week, before they start gaining again.
• That was back when moms still smoked during pregnancy. Yeah, my mom smoked with me and my brother, and we were still both over 9 lbs. Her justification was that she didn't want her babies to be too big or too intelligent. What a great mom! Both of my kids were 9 lbs, and I had them both natural, without drugs. Ouch. Son was born at 1:27 am on 2-27-95 and was the 27th baby born in the hospital that month. He was 21.5 inches long, and my labor was 21.5 hours long. Daughter was born on the day she was due (after two solid and sleepless days of hard labor). There are other interesting details about her birth, but they're kinda gross, and I know there are boys in this thread who don't want to hear it.
• Oh, now we're intersted of course.
• gotta go! /hurries off to meeting
• I was born on St. Patrick's Day, drinks're on me!!! gomi, yr brother is HAWT!! nunia, I reiterate, HARDCORE sister!!!
• I just spoke to my hawt brother for way too long on the phone. Ladies - my brother is available! Apply now! Going very cheap.
• Hang on let's back up here - nunia had 2 9lbs babies without drugs???? That's like...hardcore...
• and I know there are boys in this thread who don't want to hear it. Er and girls. It's all very life affirming and beautiful right? This birth process deal... Right? Right????!??
• Oh, now we're intersted of course. Alright, if you insist. DANGER: GROSS STUFF! The doctor said her placenta was so black and used that it wouldn't last one more day. The description was that of an old rag dipped in tar. Furthermore, instead of having the cord come out of the center of the placenta, it came out of the side. That is rare, apparently. But then, the kid is unusual in every way. She's beautiful, charming, brilliant, and eerily perceptive. She's tested in the 99th percentile for the state, and is student of the month on an average of three times a year. Make sure you people vote for her when the time comes.
• Bugger I'd forgotten all about the placenta issue til now...
• I warned you not to read it. WHY DIDN'T YOU LISTEN TO ME?
• Naivety.
• I know a great placenta lasagne recipe....
• Mr Gomichild and I had another "are we ready for this child deal" discussion tonight. As I am now drunk and raving - I think it's kind of amazing my parents just went ahead and had me. You know I'm pretty glad they did. But it seem like such a huge deal. 6lbs or 14lbs - am I capable of doing it? and then all the stuff after that... it's a big thing to deal with. I'm hoping Nature just takes over..
• you sound ambivalent, gomi. I'm not sure letting Nature make yr decision for you is the best idea. Are you pretty sure you want children but concerned about how well you'll handle it, or just unsure you want to be a mommy? I'm a bit rabid on the topic of people not having babies unless they are sure they want to. I've just seen too much of the damage that occurs when those who are unwilling/unable to handle the demands of parenthood pop one (or several) out anyway. that said, if you want 'em but yr unsure you can handle 'em, I think you are right to think of yr own parents. mine handled 3 in their early-mid 20s, with no manual and little clue, and I think they did a fine job. I am sure you would too (a child dressed to kill, fer sure!!) but please be sure it's what you and mr. gomi really want.
• I'm a bit rabid on the topic of people not having babies unless they are sure they want to. I second that. Don't have kids unless you really want to be a parent. But if you do feel ready, don't worry about the whole birth thing. It really is a lot easier than it looks, and you'll come to terms with it quickly.
• On the other hand... Both Mrs. TheDog and I have been in the ER within the past 18 months (it has not benn a klutz-free year, fer sure), and in both cases (before administering the morphine....YUM, Morphine...) nurses asked us to rank the pain we were experiencing on a scale of 1 to 10. For me, the nurse said 10 would be like the worst pain I had ever experienced. For my wife, the nurse said 10 would be like childbirth. So, I wonder about the "easier than it looks" comment. Unless Nursie was fibbing, it is the pain against which all other pain is measured. Have a nice day!
• Nah, go on. Babies are great. I know far more people who regret not, than regret having. As a mere man, of course, I'll never have the privilege of knowing what childbirth is like: but my sister says the pain was "just nothing, really". Of course, my sister is tough, and ymmv.
• I suppose fairness compels me to add that Mrs P, on the same subject, said "never again". Then we had another one.
• I've heard from some women who've given birth that kidney stones hurt more :)
• I think what happens with childbirth is that it's fucked-up-painful-like-you've-probably-never-known-pain but at the end of the day, you've got a baby! And babies are way cool, so that dampens the memory of the pain, maybe? Mrs roryk and some friends of mine were completely against 2nd kids right after 1st kids, but they changed their attitudes around 6 to 9 months later.
• I was 10 lbs, 8 ounces, 2 1/2 weeks late. Big baby! Grew into a 6'4" person. Still tend to be late for things. My wife was 2 lbs, 3 oz. and 3 months early. She remains fairly small (5'2") and mostly impatient to the present day. We complement each other nicely.
• Placenta gets BLACK AND USED?!?!?! Seriously, Nunia? What...the... huh? *Grabs "What to Expect," looks up "tar" in the index*
• I know there are boys in this thread who don't want to hear it. At my college we had to take a lecture PE credit as well as an athletic one. I, and a lot of other freshman girls, took "Understanding Sexuality." The second week we spent a full 90-minute class watching bloody, uncensored childbirth movies. You've never seen so many sets of 18-year-old knees so firmly clamped shut.
• And that was, I think, most likely the exact reaction they were hoping for.
• I was 10 something, probably 10 lb 4 oz. Our son born 3 years ago tipped in at 10 lb 8 oz... I guess that's from my genes and the fact that my wife is 6 ft tall.
• Umm... correction, my wife poked me about the weight and I checked the baby book: my son was 10 lb 15 oz. He was born in a hospital in Austin with lots of 6 lb Hispanic babies, so it was kind of hilarious seeing him with the other babies during his brief medical check.
• Seriously, Nunia? Seriously, yo. It was the first time I had heard it myself, but the doctor just went on and on about it. And another weird fact is that my son was born with the largest aqua-blue eyes I had ever seen on a newborn. Most babies have these murky, tiny, steel-blue eyes, but this kid had mega adult-sized water-clear irises. It was quite striking. Even now, his eyes are spectacular.
• I was born on St. Patrick's Day, drinks're on me!!! Me too. And if I never see another birthday cake with shamrocks on it...
• Jeez, nobody ever made me a cake with Samuel Gompers on it.
• well Vera I hope you are looking forward to yours next month (facing 39, I'm not so thrilled...) I never had a cake with a shamrock on it, but my "traditional" bday cake growing up was chocolate cake with green frosting and green m&ms on it. I have had friends in my adult life reproduce this experience for me a few times, which is so sweet, cause picking out the green ones is time-consuming :)
• I'm not especially looking forward to yet another anniversary of my 29th birthday, no. ;-) I usually got the chocolate cake with chocolate icing and green shamrocks piped on, or those rock hard candy decorations, with green candles, and green balloons, lime Kool-Aid, pistachio ice cream, shamrock birthday cards, the occasional live shamrock plant... ugh. It was like everyone had the same idea, year after year: "Hey, her birthday is on St. Patrick's Day! Let's get her something with a shamrock on it! Or leprechauns! I bet no one's ever thought of that before!" It didn't help having bright red hair, either.
• yeah, I was born with red hair :D as a child I always got a new green dress for my birthday....
• I was born in February, with brown hair. Oddly, I, too always got a new green dress for my birthday.
• I was born on the hallowed birthday of Mr. Ricardo Mantalban.
• For my wife, the nurse said 10 would be like childbirth. Gimmee a break. I'm not sayin' havin' babies is easy for every woman, but for the great majority, it's not that painful and not that hard. A major part of it is the preparation. Go into it knowing what it's all about, having taken a class and done your reading, and know that it will hurt A BIT, but that the pain can be controlled. If you have a good relationship with your doc, it won't be a problem. Prepare for natural childbirth, but don't be afraid to say "uncle" if you need to. My oldest daughter had her (useless) now ex-husband for her first two births. He dumped her early in the third pregnancy, so GramMa was the coach for that one. She said it was totally freaking amazing how easy that birth was with someone who knew what to do and wasn't afraid to suggest different positions or help out by rubbing her back, etc. Just having someone calm to help talk you through is great. Since new dads are nervous, sometimes it helps to have someone experienced (perhaps a midwife) GramMa's four ranged from 6lb 3oz to 7lb 10oz, getting bigger as they came along. All FOUR were born "natural." One other thing, it's amazing how that little being arrives, and all of the sudden you forget any and all hurt. There's a certain squee effect that draws a veil over all that came before, and all that matters is the little monkey. Anyway, enough.
• Monkeyfilter: A certain squee effect that draws a veil over all that came before, and all that matters is the little monkey.
• you sound ambivalent, gomi. I'm not sure letting Nature make yr decision for you is the best idea. Are you pretty sure you want children but concerned about how well you'll handle it, or just unsure you want to be a mommy? I'm pretty sure I want to be a Mum - but I'm just overwhelmed by the thought of doing so. In the last couple of years I've been getting as clucky as all hell over babies - something which even at 30 would have repulsed me. I was hoping that Nature would take over in so far that my maternal instincts would help drive out the fears (^_^). I guess it's a topic that keeps kicking around the household of late as I'll be 36 this year and can't keep postponing kids for too much longer. Otherwise the decision will be taking out of my hands. I sure do admire everyone who has already managed to do it! 4 kids Grandma - goodness me...
• Y'know, it's weird, gomi - infertility came as a huge relief to me. As you said, the decision was taken out of my hands.
• Actually TUM - that doesn't sound weird to me at all. Given also my personal history on the reproductive front the question of infertility is definitely there. So I may be stressing over a non-issue.
• My mother went for her monthly pregnancy check-up, and doctor had her stay, 'you're almost due!'. She had to send a relative back home for her suitcase full of baby clothes and stuff. Up to the 9th month, she didn't look so ample. I was born a skinny puppy, and in a hurry, so it seems. 'Easier one of the three', she said. I'd have to ask her for measurements and weight. I faintly recall seeing some hospital document with the print of my tiny hand (or the foot?) on it, many years ago...
• another "are we ready for this child deal" discussion. Sounds familiar, gomi. So, okay answer me this (because there seem to be a lot of parents and/or smrt people here): Is there a logical reason to have a baby? So far as I can tell, the answer is pretty much "No", although some people really really really want one anyway and the answer doesn't matter in the first place. I mean, outside of a "we need more people in the world" or "someone to carry on our proud family heritage" reasons. I'm looking for a logical reason, something like "People should have babies because ________." and the blank would be filled in with something that makes sense. I don't think there necessarily needs to be a reason, it's just that there doesn't seem to be one, and that seems curious. As with any baby-related query, pregnant or nursing moms should not take internally. Check with your doctor if you have mild blog irritation, swelling of taglines, or tar-colored placenta.
• People should have babies because what the world / needs now / is squee / sweet squee. Dahdahdahdahdah, dah-dah-dadadaaa...
• *signs petition for preview button*
• There's no logical reason to do anything, so far as I can see. We might as well all sit here and die of inanition. I am not fishing for a tagline
• If the purpose of life is to experience living, I'd suggest that people should have babies because it's one route to greater knowledge of themselves. That's not to say that there aren't other ways to do this, some of which involve greater or lesser quantities of vomiting, excrement, and sleep deprivation.
• Monkeyfilter: I am not fishing for a tagline.
• Yeah, "Because . . . squeee!" seems to be the answer I get so far. But Pleggy, there's logical reasons to start civil engineering projects, or not to burn down the banana patch or things like that. Although to the larger point of human existence, I might agree that perhaps logic doesn't play so big a role. . . . it's one route to greater knowledge of themselves thanks roryk!
• That, and to help out on the farm.
• People should make art because_______. People should listen to music because________. People should have romantic relationships because_______. People should socialize with other people because________. Those blanks, and yours, should all be filled with the same response. Mine is "because it greatly increases one's enjoyment of life". I don't know if that's logical enough, however.
• C'mon! It's a no-brainer for all you U.S. citizens! $1000 tax credit for each kid! Why, that's gold I tell you! Gold! Great comment, roryk!
• SMT FTW! And then there's that whole taking-care-of-you-when-you're-old thing.
• greater knowledge of themselves I'm not sure I really want to know myself. If first impressions are any indication, I'm really kind of a twit. Let's not invite me over for dinner anymore, alright?
• Done.
• Right, TUM. Somebody's gotta bag our groceries and pay someone to change our diapers.
• Is there a logical reason to have a baby? I had the same attitude, and used to ask a similar thing of people until I finally got an answer that I couldn't question. I would say that I didn't see the point of sprogs, and that I would consider changing my attitude if I just heard one good, solid, unquestionable reason why you should have one. I finally got an answer from a co-worker at the University of Guelph. He said, that having a child is an important and integral part of the human experience, of what it means to be human, and that you will never know it if you don't. That floored me. I couldn't argue with that him, and I had finally gotten my one good reason. You only live one life, and having kids is (even from just a pure, biological and evolutionary standpoint), what it means to be human. Now that we just had our first child, I agree with him whole-heartedly.
• UofG?...Another local?
• Spent over 10 years of my life there. I'm in Ottawa now, though. The feds pay better.
• But there's no Albion in which to spend that cash. You can see his dilemma.
• No Albion is a very big dilemma, as is no Guelph Farmer's Market. I have been settling in nicely at the Rochester Pub here, though. But it is not the Centre of the Universe.
• You wouldn't want to be trying to get to Guelph today. Hwy 6 is closed, and others.
• WHAT??
• *passes the ear horn to Koko*
• there's no Albion here but there's an Albion Road
• My brain keeps filling in "Albino."
• Not to stir up a hornet's nest, but a serious question. If having a baby is what makes one human, what does that say for those who can't or don't have babies?
• I've always suspected I was meta-, sub-, trans-, para- seriously, Lara, that's a good question!
• That is a good question. I don't think the implication, Lara, is that it makes one not human or whatever if one can't have children. I think the point is just that it is a very human thing to want to do. Simply put, that is a reason in itself for having them. Of course, if you take a non-metaphysical look at it, and boil it down to raw evolutionary biological terms, then if you don't reproduce then you've failed as a biological unit. Basic evolutionary biology. You haven't passed on your genes. However, I prefer to subscribe to the belief that people are more than just genes and biology, that there is a lot more to life than that. I am not a fan of Dawkins et al. I just think there is actually a good, solid, logical, rational reason to want to or actually have children, and it shouldn't just be dismissed as an ego thing or what have you: it is to experience a central part of human existence that otherwise you will never know. How someone takes it if they can't have children is a more complicated matter. I always assumed if I could, great, if not, well, I can accept that as well. Lots to do in life anyways, and not enough time. Maybe it is a bit glib and easy to say this, as it is all academic for me now. Too late to send the sprog back. The devil's advocate in me wants to point out that there are a hell of a lot of things you won't be able to experience if you are saddled with kids, and stuff the "human experience" crappola. Take my aunt. No kids, is a respected university professor, has travelled the world, and is spending the next 2 years in Africa for research with a beautiful view out her window of Mt. Kilimanjaro. And she has no regrets.
• Having kids isn't *what* makes us human, just one more facet of life that we can or not experience. Genes shout at us for doing it, still that shouldn't be the end-all reason for our existence. Yes, your genes, experiences, foibles and memories won't pass down to another being, if you don't reproduce, but there are other ways to leave something behind, in other people, or via tangible actions. One thing that really got me thinking a long time ago, regarding children, was a comment from a friend: 'I see the smartest, most capable people opt out of raising kids, while the most fucked-up people are the ones with 4 or five, spoiling, abusing or neglecting them. Its depressing'. Yes, it is.
• Man. Sorry about that late night ramble. 'Twas the Jaegermeister speaking. To summarise: 1. Is there a Reason to sprog? Yes. See above. 2. Why do most people have sprog? Two reasons: "oops" and "squee". 3. Unless you are a fundamentalist evolutionary biologist, reproduction is only one facet of the human experience. Life is much more complicated than that. Personally, I have a greater issue with people whose life only centres around sproglings.
• The corollary to Point 3, of course, is that even if you are a fundamentalist evolutionary biologist, putting some of your resources into assuring the reproductive fitness of near relatives adds to your own reproductive fitness, so you don't necessarily have to have sprogs of your own.
• Why do most people have sprog? Two reasons: "oops" and "squee" This is not at attempt to criticise you - because I think you're talking specifically about a certain group of which most of those here are members - and in any case neither do I have any relevant experience in this matter; however it occurs to me to wonder if a vast majority of non-rich/developing country persons would have a different attitude to the question of why they have children. And I'm guessing the lives of these great unwashed would be in some fundamental ways more alike to many of those in oldentimes who lived in nowadays-rich countries; ergo I wonder (without knowing anything about this) if the greater percentage of living and dead humanity have or had an entirely different attitude. But I honestly couldn't offer an opinion on that: only the above question.
• True. In many places, religious, cultural, and basic survival (need kids to ____) are important reasons. However, I imagine there is a also a lot of "oops" without proper access to birth control. Time and time again, it has been proven that the most certain way to control population increases is modern development, education, and wealth.
• I was rather thinking that many persons might not think of their/their partner's/other peoples' pregnancy in terms of "oops" at all. That's not to say that every pregnancy is planned; what I mean is that I wonder if the idea that pregnancy is something that should be planned "in our rich Western way" is not taken for granted by (say) your average poor rural Sudanese/Chinese/Koori/Uttar Pradeshian/etc. But maybe there's no difference - I actually dunno. I think their attitudes might be more complex than "oops", however. Anyway I imagine you're using the term as a shorthand for the fact of unplannedness, not necessarily to describe the subjective experience of a pregnancy not planned.
• I think in that case it might be more of a "that's just what you do" sort of thing. It's what your parents did, and your grandparents, so that's what you do too. For most, there aren't too many other paths their lives might take. College and career don't even enter the equation (for the vast majority), and these are the main reasons for westerners to choose not to have kids. There is no "oops" if you never considered any other option.
• Yep, I figure a large number of pregnancies are a secondary result of a primary action. I suspect that a common case is that people have sex for sex, and sometimes preganancy results ("oops"), rather than having sex for the purpose of procreation ("squee" or whatever).
• I wonder if many peoples' experiences may well be even more positive than that, and yet somewhat different from a person in another society with different social and economic constraints. To take one example, "Western" fathers in (say) Europe are not referred to in formal discourse as the "father of [their oldest son]"; whereas my understanding is that naming conventions in certain Muslim societies call for this, indicating perhaps the social status a man gains when he becomes "the head of a family". That might indicate that producing offspring in such societies is viewed (by/for men) in entirely different terms than those of us (men) on this site. I dunno about Muslettes in this regard.
• indicating perhaps the social status a man gains when he becomes "the head of a family" This was suggested to me by a Nigerian colleague in regards to his country, but I can't vouch for its accuracy. A commentator on (presumably very different) Arabic naming conventions here notes the following: one thing to bear in mind is that the kunya is such a basic element, so popular a means to refer to people, that one is usually given even to people who have no children, or without reference to whatever children they might have. Thus an enemy of the Prophet was known as Abu Lahab 'father of flame,' and the ninth-century caliph al-Mamun granted a Christian physician who had treated him successfully the kunya Abu 'Isa 'father of Jesus' (which was quite an honor, and also offensive to some theologians, since Jesus had no human father).
• So this same question I asked a person who wants babies, and after deciding that "there's no logical reason other than we want to, and it's a part of life" raised the uncomfortable follow-up: That part of life may be overcrowding the landfills with non-biodegradable diapers and SUVs and so on. This eventually got around to, literally, "I want kids and I don't care if it destroys the earth". Which, while stark, seems to be pretty well exactly what they mean. So that's why I asked about the logical component specifically because that seems to fly in the face of logic and yet there we go. It's a great point about it being a path of self-discovery and thus serves the goals of individual, but it's not like there's a shortage of people in the world, or children available for adoption. And the downside is all the overpopulation stuff. I dunno, I'm just asking because it doesn't make sense to me and yet everyone seems to be jumping in. (and on preview: maybe I'm wrestling with developed nation Western questions more so than the exponential increase of babies which perpetuate those questions)
• Just to qualify that, the question may be more about population than environment although the two are inextricable. And my apologies if the question or implication sounds accusatory, I'm just trying to find out if birthin' babies is somethin I want to know somethin 'bout.
• > "Western" fathers in (say) Europe are not referred to in formal discourse as the "father of [their oldest son]"; whereas my understanding is that naming conventions in certain Muslim societies call for this, Is it/was it not the other way around in some middle eastern traditions - "bin" or "ben" identifying someone as "son of" their father? Much the same as "mac"/"mc" (nic/ni feminine) would in Gaelic or the suffix "-son" (totter) in Icelandic (perhaps Danish?).
• somethin I want to know somethin 'bout It's only for mommies and daddies who love each other very much. *sends pete off to bed with glass of milk*
• To further confuse matters I think my current niggling to have teh babies is more based on reasons of family rather than oops or squee - and I'm sure it's tied in to having lost so many family members not so long ago.
• reasons of family Having one? or pressure from? Confide with Sly you'll be the wiser?
• As in wanting to have one...
• I don't mean to sound like I have a chip on my shoulder, because I don't and because I appreciate the non-judgmental tone of the discussion, but why the need to defend your choice either way? I don't agree with the notion that I have to justify my decision to bring a child into the world, any more than I have to justify what job I have or who I married or what kind of relationship I have with my increasingly right-wing parents. Take responsibility for my choices, sure. Justify them to anyone else, no. I'd feel exactly the same if I'd chosen not to have kids. petebest: Not having kids because of the landfill space the diapers would take up seems like an enormous sacrifice to make for very little relative gain. I mean, dirty diapers vs. industrial waste. Maybe I'll feel differently when I actually see how many poo-covered pieces of plastic my child adds to the landfill, but at this point, I don't equate -- on a moral level, I mean, because I don't know how to quantify it -- the environmental damage that results from having kids with the damage that results from much more frivolous things we do, like taking vacations halfway around the world or driving enormous vehicles we don't need, or even with the fact that Mr. Swamp and I live in very energy-inefficient old house because we love it, and we won't replace the extremely inefficient old furnace because we've got other things to spend the money on right now. I don't see it any differently than any other choice you make -- just try to minimize the damage wherever possible. Don't have 18 kids, don't waste stuff, drive a minivan instead of an SUV, and raise your children to earn their keep in the world.
• Is it/was it not the other way around in some middle eastern traditions - "bin" or "ben" identifying someone as "son of" their father It's both, in at least Arabic traditions, as languagehat's link points out. But my suspicion is that the "father of ..." element is often used (literally or metaphorically, as the examples lauguagehat quotes) to indicate that a person holds a position of respect, i.e. a breeder, the head of a household. I could be completely wrong about that though, so it's probably not much of an example for this discussion.
• Interesting discussion here, and I agree with much of what is said. Is there a logical reason to have a baby? Try answering THAT ONE at 2 AM with a poo-covered squawking three-month-old in your arms. There are as many reasons to have kids as there are kids: logical, illogical, bio-logical, squee-ological, financ-ological--whatever. Whatever the reasons, every child should be cherished and loved. They are the future.
• I think I was pretty small, but I don't remember; it was a long time ago. I do know that I was born at home -- no reason for it, basically for the hell of it.
• I guess being born at home, for the hell of it, is better than being born, for the hell of it, at home.