oops...how did that happen?
sorry for the double post.
But isn't that the sort of argument that comes only when you have had the same users for 2 years or more - we haven't really had time yet for all the grudges and petty hatreds to grow and explode randomly across the site...
dxlifer, I say if one post is good, two are twice as good. Not a big problem those double posts, I can scroll sistermonkey.
Only these many?
Let the anal self policing farce force be with them.
And as to the comments in the thread, I agree with your sentiment. Knowing what is RIGHT and being unwilling to compromise, or even enterain the thought that there could be some sort of compromise, is the problem.
oops, entertain not enterain. doy me.
Since we're MoFis, I'd like to inform you that I also live in Astoria, Queens and I go to that Pomme Frite place on the Lower East Side that jonmc likes (for real). Now...rip me apart!
I thought that MeFi discussion was a little sad. Over the last few months, I've read less and less of the MeFi comments, and my once-burning desire to join has now almost disappeared. MoFi is the way forward, and in two years, if we get to the level of that MeFi thread, I will be on my merry digital way to find another community.
Sigh.
[/introspection]
i agree, dawson. reading mefi threads like that makes my skin crawl. reading mofi threads makes my skin... um... glow?
*ponders glowing skin*
You're soaking in it, SideDish. *nudges her fingertips back into the dishwashing liquid*
I found the discussion of European/American relations very interesting.
But the thread derail makes no sense - Queens is more "authentic" than the lower east side.
But real authenticity? For that, only Etobicoke will do. Here's to the West Side! /ali g
funny that this post comes so close on the heels of this one. not the same thing, exactly, but seems to that we can be just as cranky and small...
Pommes Frites has delicious fries (though I've never had their War Sauce, as I'm not a huge fan of mayonnaise), but you would have to have at least a little chunk of money to live near it nowadays, unless you'd been living there for ages and ages.
Anyone going for (New York area) Everyman appeal would be much better off saying "I live in Queens."
Ok pyrrthon1, I'll start.
Pomm'e \Pom`m['e]"\, a. [F. See Pomey.] (Her.) Having the ends terminating in rounded protuberances or single balls.
So did you and jonmc originally meet there or in another support group?
I read that MeFi thread (and the accompanying MeTa thread) with growing alarm. I simply could not believe it. Completely rational people hurling insults out of the blue. It sounds like a community about to fall apart. It's scary, frankly. Even as a membership-less MeFi lurker, those people mean something to me. Monkeys, let's please never go there.
I need a hug.
Damn, am I in trouble again?
Only having discovered MeFi a few months ago (ok, I'm slow these days), I feel much better knowing that I swung into MoFi just days later... Where I think I'll be content to take a banana and share one
too. And perchance any chatter like that appears here, I'll go find another tree to hang from...
MeFi has 17175 members, and only one of them crossed the line in that thread. I fail to see the big deal.
seems to that we can be just as cranky and small
Yes. Let us all beware the danger of monkey hubris.
What dirtdirt and goetter said. We should refrain from making fun of MeFi posters. Firstly, a good chunk of them are members here too, and I wouldn't appreciate being talked about like that (effectively we're poking fun behind their backs) and secondly, that could well be us on a bad day.
We have plenty of "self satisfaction" threads on MoFi already -- almost any post that allows Monkeys to talk about themselves becomes a "look how much better than Metafilter we are" thread.
I agree with both kenshin and goetter. Far be it from me to defend MeFi poo-flinging in general, but that thread is not a good example; interrobang took a totally off-topic and unjustified swipe at jonmc and got slapped a bit for it, end of story. If you want some real Horrible Examples, let me know and I'll give you some links that will curl your hair. And definitely beware the danger of monkey hubris; I thought of the same thread dirtdirt did, and it seems to me I've seen others where there were the beginnings of trouble. Just wait a year or two, my pretties...
Let us concede that anyone can have can have a cranky moment, can misread a comment and post a reply in haste, or can express a thought so clumsily as to have others misunderstand our intent. MoFi or MeFi.
[And not reading seems to be thing we are sometimes prone to do, too.]
Monkeyfilter is not a trailbreaker like MeFi, but can study MeFites' sadder moments and keep in mind what pitfalls exist in a forum situation.
I think what makes us different is that we can(so far) apologize, can acknowledge we don't know all the answers, and can allow other people to express different reactions and viewpoints without taking them as an affront. May we continue to do so.
I didn't read that one on MeFi - as I don't have a vote in the US election, I'm not following it that closely. Yep, sure was a train wreck of a thread, as Miguel said!
This is why I have a post-it on my monitor that says "I will NOT post when I have PMS..."
MeFi flings poo. Story at 11.
Um, this is news because....?
What hat said. Shows off MeFi's unfortunate habit of one "thread derailer" tossing out bait and too many participants jumping at it like a school of vegetarian piranhas feeding on Mr. Potato Head (concept stolen from "The Far Side"). Not nearly the worst example I've seen, but it does make one wish that "self-policing site" would stop handing out badges (I didn't create this, but I own one)
Pyrrthon, I used ta be in astoria... well, LIC to be exact... 36th ave N stop? Do you eat around there? I have some restaurants to recommend.
Never cared much for that pomme frites joint, but upstairs on the same street was TOY TOKYO!
Oh and my vote goes to enough with the schadenfreude, kiddies. I read that whole thread and it mellowed out and became more conversational by the end. Picking on your cousin only gets you swatted by mom.
I think those pommes frites are too expensive by a factor of three.
the story is.....anything that leads to honest self-examination is a good thing....don't monkeys do it to each other in their grooming rituals as both a bonding and a functional act as well?
i had looked at "don't view this" before i posted but my only thought was that it was an excellent example of bad taste and certain mind-sets that don't attract me. i simply sent it to some people i knew who would think it funny! at that time all those comments weren't there. so the two posts, by serendipity, became somewhat entwined in my absence.
very interesting.
anyway......i've been a mefi reader for about four years and gave up on their 'new member' button. now it seems as if it's no loss as i've watched the posts and commentary detiorate to 'simply not worth the effort' to bother going there much. then there's mr howie playing autocrat behind the scenes and letting his personal feelings dictate his decisions. in this case i happened to see the name of the poster and went in. (shudder).
now...will someone please explain to me what is the hang-up about what is the au courant 'authentic' area of new york? does it really hinge on who has the best fries?
I still don't really get that Kerry is popular over here in Britain, although he might well be. Maybe its just me - Kerry seems to be an entirely blank slate as far as I can tell, saying nothing but looking Presidential, whatever that means.
looking Presidential, whatever that means
Tall. Male. Seemingly Anglo-Saxon or Irish.
What interested in me is Europe is so in love in Kerry.
I think they're really in love with his wacky heiress wife.
No, we're in love with the fact that he's not that dangerous moron Bush. I haven't heard any mention of Kerry's wife in the British media.
Getting back on track, I'd like to say that I actually *enjoy* enormously seeing people lose their cool and insulting one another, and also enjoy actively participating in it - as long as everyone apologises and makes up afterwards. This might have to do with my non-neurotypicality or perhaps I simply like mayhem.
In any case, I hope Mofi does not become *too* PC - as beeswacky said, everyone has a bad day, and the idea is to not let it get to you, have a laugh, etc. Hey, that bastard cut me off at the intersection!! Let's kill him!!
I had a dream about Bilbo Baggins helping me kill a whole bunch of Orcs. He had a plastic scimitar. Only it turned out to be a computer program. This is what the internet is like.
I actually *enjoy* enormously seeing people lose their cool and insulting one another, and also enjoy actively participating in it
And so do I, quite often. But for some reason, I don't enjoy it one little bit on the internet - too impersonal, too many trolls, too slow and long drawn out, too boring, basically. If I want a bitter and angry argument about random hateful shit I'll go down the pub. Now that is fun. Unless I get beaten up, of course.
it's really unpleasant, moreso than an out of control mefi thread, to come over here and see monkeys doing a church lady dance of superiority. blecch :-(
I agree with t r a c y
Come off it, tracy
/trying to get something started
I agreed with the original poster (scrolls up...) dxlifer.
Then I agreed with t to the r to the a to the c to the y.
And then I agreed with Gyan.
Now I don't know who to agree with anymore.
I <3 everyone.
Have a banana!
) <-- virtual banana
Kerry trip to Iraq? What, he wants to be RFKed?
the story is.....anything that leads to honest self-examination is a good thing....don't monkeys do it to each other in their grooming rituals as both a bonding and a functional act as well?
Or one might suspect that part ofht ewhole problem with self-policing and callouts to the grey in a closed community is that it breeds these sorts of grudges and blowups. THere's the danger of becoming self-obsessed ratchet jaws.
"a church lady dance of superiority" ouch!
i hope we didn't really come off as that pious. i did, however, hope to provide an example of where things can end up if personal feelings intrude into community discussions. the right to personal expression of opinion is inviolate, to my way of thinking....but not at the expense of the feelings of others and the inherent glimpse into the some undesirable feelings of the commenters. that turns things into a zero-sum situation, doesn't it....we all lose in the process.
it's not just what one says but how one says it.
personal attacks have no place in a public forum...imho
criticism of a post does not mean that the poster needs to be tarred and feathered for all to see.
perhaps it's simply my old-fashioned concept of civilised interaction. my daughter always groaned when i quoted 'miss manners'! (now she utilises some of the basics herself)
and i still don't understand the fries thing....but i know there outlets here called 'new york fries' and admit that they are quite good.
if a community goes overboard reigning itself in and being "polite" the chances are it's going to just fizzle out or implode on itself. i've seen that happen too many times over the decade i've been online. community members have to be allowed to fight with each other sometimes, and then find a way to still live with each other...
metafilter has been a wild bunch since day one and it's now 5 years later and we're still standing... members sometimes go 10 rounds with each other and end up with virtual bloody noses, but only a few have run away and never come back. people still choose to be members, 'cause they know they're not likely to find the same quality of discussion elsewhere. you just can't be a delicate flower over there, is all. you have to be able to stand behind your opinions, especially when things get rough. mostly they don't get rough tho'. why else do the chaotic threads get noticed by folks all over the net, eh...? because they stand out, they're not *that* common.
and you know, one can simply ignore the threads that disintegrate into name calling and pointless quipping. i mean so the fook what if a couple of members have personal grudges, it's not like you're required to be involved in it.
so anyway, where will monkeyfilter be in 5 years...? will the bananas be so bland that everyone goes elsewhere looking for a tasty treat...? or will it have found a way to thrive in spite of a few personality clashes and chaotic threads...?
it bears mentioning that our fearless leader matt, has been a bit of a wimp lately and banned one of our most beloved quipsters. i really think this sort of censorship can be the beginning of the end. hopefully you monkeys won't have to learn a terrible lesson from us. be free monkeys, be naughty monkeys, embrace your dark monkey side...!
free quonsar...! :-D
Maybe its just punishment for him defecting over here...
He banned quonsar? *gasps in horror*
This is where I reveal myself as some form of Metafilter stalker:
He did it before, too, for a while, I seem to remember.
oh yah, the big Q has been banned a few times as i recall.
the ban has been lifted tho', it was just for a week.
i didn't know that matt had banished quonsar like that...his comments were always the big drawing card for me....take a bow, quonsar, wherever you are.
but i still see no need for personal and childish attacks on other people for all to see.
i like the idea of mature conversation....in topic or style...and that does not preclude humour or ribbing or whatever...
and again...honest criticism is always valid and worthy of consideration.
but do monkeys really 'play' spiteful games?
why do people harbour grudges? and then release them vituperatively?
not my way and has always baffled me in others.
if a community goes overboard reigning itself in [...]it's going to just fizzle out i've seen that happen too many times over the decade i've been online.
I have never observed that dynamic. Usenet since 1985, WWW since 1995.
There is no shortage of places to act like an anonymous online asshole. I rather like that MoFi isn't one of those places.
Rodgerd, here's your *special* big hug, and let's have a group Monkey hug for heaven's sake.
Thank you for sharing your bananas, armaghetto. That's what Monkeyfilter is all about, kiddies. Sharing bananas. Poo-flinging should be done in a spirit of light-hearted merriment. Warm fuzzy funny poo is much better for flinging than the poo that occurs in constipated bitter monkeys.
Vapidave says it best, Monkeyfilter should be all about knowing what is RIGHT. Monkeys don't need to stand on Mofis to feel good. Let us show by example that love and Monkey goodness is a *nice* thing. After all, many of us wanted to be Mofis in a previous incarnation, we were simply in line too late to join the fun.
At its best, Mofi has great links and super dialog. We should aspire to that.
clearly goetter you and i have not travelled in the same ones and zeros... i have been a member of and or sometimes the admin of several communties which tanked because they never allowed for heated, sometimes out of control discussion. by that same token i am not condoning acting like an asshole - people should always be as nice to each other as possible. but that's not always humanly possible and i personally feel you have to make room for bad behaviour.
but anyway, my main point was i totally take exception to one group acting as tho' they're superior to another because they do things differently. sometimes i get put off by the nicey-nice here so i go back to mefi, then mefi pisses me off with it's harsh ways and i come back here. diff strokes for diff folks, and all strokes for tracy. i'm hogging the internet and you can't stop me...! plus everyone here gets my share of the bananas, because i have a very traumatic life story which has resulted in me not being able to partake of the sweet yellow fruit.
but anyway, my main point was i totally take exception to one group acting as tho' they're superior to another because they do things differently.
And I think you're right too (or is that to - its late and my brain's failing me).
Anyway, I hope it doesn't become too sickly here for you (or for any of us, really).
nooo, never. this place is great, so is mefi. meat space is better tho', i'm going to the movies...!
hidalgo - viggo mortenson - *drool*
*leaves big pitcher of banana daiquiris for dng to share with the others*
t r a c y - here's a mango for the banana challenged. And a peach, and a plum, and pomegranate, too. Hidden among them are a few fresh (not cured) olives, just in case this is getting too sickly sweet. If you haven't tried those before, I'll warn you that you need to bite carefully. (I've always wondered how anyone figured out that soaking olives in brine would make them edible.)
On the other hand, cracked, marinated with garlic and herbs, fresh olives give one the best of the bitter with the delicious. We don't seem to have (m?)any uncured olives on MoFi, but I bet we could develop some cracked ones over time, maybe even one or two who would equal quonsar's confusing tastiness.
Yeah, I know, I carried the analogy too far, but I don't regret it.
I have nothing to contribute, but it doesn't feel like a self-referrential monkey thread to me unless I say something, so Hi!
Poor little monkey. You definitely had the wrong bananas.
sometimes i get put off by the nicey-nice here so i go back to mefi
That way, everybody wins! You get to return to that shining, bitchy city upon a hill to get your snark on. We get to keep our saccharine nicey-niceness. Isn't that nice? Don't you want to sing a song, now??
[takes off jacket and shoes, puts on cardigan]
Of all the site self-evaluations I've come across in my (short) time here in Monkey Land, this thread of too-nice or not-so-nice has been the most intriguing. Why? Because I'm secretly hoping the end result is that MoFi takes a stand for itself; although MoFi is intended to be a MeFi clone, I believe MoFi can eventually be its own entity. And I think once we resolve our superiority/inferiority complex and pick a road to travel on, we won't have to make comparisons to anyone else.
That being said, I think the best route is for MeFi--I mean MoFi (MeFi, MoFi, tippy tippy dye dye) to go in a different direction than what's out there already. We should strive for a more positive vibe. No, I'm not saying that we need to be "nicey-nice" all the time, but to have a community that is based on nicey-nice (obviously, I like that phrase) is a great ideal and definitely something to strive for at the end of the day.
Are the nasty battles on MeFi fantastic entertainment? Certainly. Do we all hit that refresh button every five seconds to see how someone's going to respond to being called a syphilis-tipped crotch wart? Of course. It's great fun. But do we really really really need to clone MeFi down to the last pixel? No. Instead, I say let's be ourselves--whatever that may end up being.
Then again, I may be completely wrong here. Maybe MonkeyFilter's aspirations are that of a virtual bullpen for MetaFilter. If it is, so be it. I understand. But if MoFi stays in the 90th percentile of nicey-nice, I'll definitely stick around. It has the makings of a great--and unusual--community.
but it does make one wish that "self-policing site" would stop handing out badges (I didn't create this, but I own one)How about medals?
Lord knows I defeat the purpose of my point by making this comment, but what we do BEST here in the lavender is just ignoring nattering nabobs of negativity.
Last time we did this, the thread had a brief spark at the end in which Mofi was accused of lacking "intellectual" discussion. While I'm sure thirty of us considered sharpening our knives, we basically restrained and let the issue die.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Everyone's entitled to their own stupid opinion.
Good fences make good neighbors.
and i doubt it needs to be said, but obviously it's nice that we're so goddamn nice. yay us!
Because the doesn't-need-to-be-said corollary is, to quote Ice-T: "If you don't like my lifestyle, fuck you."
bitchin ref, forks.
same to you g.
"Freedom of speech? that's some motherfuckin' BULLshit. Say the wrong thing, they lock your ass up quick..."
homunculus: that is a beautiful banana video.
no goetter i had the good 'nanas. i would have died without them, in all seriousness. but you try eating only them for a year straight and see if you can stand the sight, smell, or taste of them ever again.
you know, you guys are a lot more metafilter-y than you realize. i say this because i sense a few time honoured mefi traditions afoot. purposely misunderstanding a person's comments, purposely ignoring that which balances someone's comments, purposely reading a tone into comments that's not there. you should never have dubbed yourselves a clone from the start, i think it's put some of you in a position of feeling defensive, as tho' this place could never be as good as. why else would a fpp like this ever exist in the first place...?
i feel compelled to make myself better understood but i have a few people reading over my shoulder who are yelling that it's not worth it, so i shall leave you to your self satisfaction.
*grabs smoothie maker and stomps out of the room as loud as her little doc martens will allow*
:-p
Somebody's up late.
This is certainly something we monkeys want to avoid. Check it out before it gets deleted.
you know, you guys are a lot more metafilter-y than you realize.
Damn, woman, that's just cold.
I think it's time for that group hug again.
*runs before banana peels are pelted*
Gyan, I would agree, but when I read that (and its MeTa) I couldn't stop laughing. The sheer absurdity of it, and the absence of directed personal malice, brought it above the level of a bad thread back into sublime humor. Really. It made my day.
[offers bananas to MeFi in gratitude]
Monkeyfilter: A lot more metafilter-y than you realize.
*sheepishly slinks back into the room, throws cosy afghan over goetter*
that's something everyfreakingone wants to avoid...! but if i were a usa-ian and had to deal with their current state of affairs i might freak out and make a bad fpp too. plus it turned out funny, as many mefi train wrecks do, and i for one never look a funny gift horse in the mouth.
no wolof, it is not past my bed time. hmmph. i am sleep deprived tho' and therefore a tad overwrought.
...purposely misunderstanding a person's comments, purposely ignoring that which balances someone's comments, purposely reading a tone into comments that's not there.
Well, imho, these are not traits invented by Mefilim. These are traits pretty standard for internet conversation in general, in my experience.
Mefilim? Funny, they don't LOOK goyish...
Monkeygefilter.
Gyan thanks for the link!! It made me laugh hard.
EAT MY POOP!! EAT IT! POOOP!!!
simply unbelievable!
i've just arrived here, obviously late and am overwhelmed at all this happening.
there were some apt expressions on mefi, though, weren't there...such as 'losing your egrip'....and criticising the link not the poster...
i had just read in the news earlier about the two hockey players and thought about how there is an arena where public grudges have become a mainstream attraction to the detriment of the greater sport.
i think when we post and comment we should always be aware that what we say will reflect on the image of every reader on this site and so we must consider .....
do we wish to appear mature or not?
can we present and discuss intelligent or provocative material in a minimally harmful way?
can we always step back and laugh at each other and ourselves.
jane goodall would approve...or does that count?
at the risk of sounding like that dreaded miss manners, i'm at a stage in life that i prefer a modicum of civility in my life or at least be able to shrug it off as 'oh, well..that's life'.
i can't imagine what it would do to me to lose my 'egrip' and i'm sure if incited enough i'd be there around the clock until i could find a way to get the last word in...especially with people deliberately baiting me after an apology... sure i could do it...with great passion.....but what's the point?
i'd prefer to avoid that kind of destructive passion and use it to more useful purposes...i'm not going to set myself out to get anyone angry with me....tsk....such a waste of time and energy.
so far, in my short time here, i have found a wonderful group representing many areas of the world, professions, backgrounds and intelligence and humour.
what a wonderful mix
of course we've got some shit-disturbers in here...but they fit the same group don't they?
so, i believe that intelligent and - may i say it? - worldy people will by tacit understanding maintain the honour of the site as well their own identity.
and that still is just plain old civility...manners....in my definition.
i think i just kinda emotional 'cause my old dog died last night at 14 1/2 yrs... a german shepherd i had rescued five years ago.....she taught me a lot about forgiving and learning how to live properly again and i'm not looking forward to going out front where she'd be beside my couch. all critters are good, be they monkeys or whoever....
dxlifer, I'm so sorry to hear about your dog. I know she lived a long time, but that always seems to make it harder, not easier, to deal with. My condolences.
dxlifer, please accept my commiseration. It is always hard when a loved one leaves us.
dxlifer - i'm so sorry about your pupster, i know how hard it is to lose a beloved companion. she'll always be with you in spirit tho', and will lead you to another who needs you, when the time is right.
c'mon folks....i was only explaing why i became e-motional.....i didn't want to throw my own thread off track.
but as i said...people here are somehow ...more dignified,,,,more aware....
i really want to see this site continues and grow in the same direction it has started in.
Common misconception over this way.
Thread does not belong to poster. Post belongs to poster.
I only say this because it crops up frequently.
Bless me, Father, etc.
I'm guilty of that, too. Will I ever be able to find forgiveness?
mea culpa, mea culpa.
oh dear...you are quite right and i'm grateful for being picked up on use of a dangerous syntax, that leads to the sort of problem i introduced in the original post....
deep thinking
i will repeat..."i own my own comments, not the thread....i will not assume personal responsibility for things that are not my deeds...
wait a minute...am i getting into the serenity prayer next?
Monkeygefilter.
That was absolutely brilliant. Gold banana to Wolof.
::watches Wolof trying to peel gold banana... laughs... slaps self with fish::
anal self policing farceforce be with them. And as to the comments in the thread, I agree with your sentiment. Knowing what is RIGHT and being unwilling to compromise, or even enterain the thought that there could be some sort of compromise, is the problem.Monkeyfilter is not a trailbreaker like MeFi, but can study MeFites' sadder moments and keep in mind what pitfalls exist in a forum situation. I think what makes us different is that we can(so far) apologize, can acknowledge we don't know all the answers, and can allow other people to express different reactions and viewpoints without taking them as an affront. May we continue to do so.