December 06, 2006

• I had a much longer reply set out for this, but I'll just say two things: 1. This guy has not spent any company in a crowd of only women, to say that they have no equivalent of guy-humour. 2. If humour is a sign of intelligence, it has to go both ways. You need intelligence to create that humour, and you need intelligence to recognize that humour. So the argument cancels itself out. Allright, three things. Dorothy Parker was frickin' hilarious. Dry as a dust factory, sure, but hi-lar-i-ous. OK, four things. Women may not have to be funny to appeal to a man, in a very ordinary way, but when they are (hello, Madeleine Kahn?), watch out. Final thought -- is this a joke?
• That wasn't very...funny,mandyman. Why did you post it? Here's a joke that maybe you will "get" and can use: Three people walk into a bar; Mandyman, Christopher Hitchens, and RalphTheDog. Bartender says, "what'll it be?" Christopher Hitchens orders a scotch on the rocks, RalphTheDog orders a beer, and Mandyman asks for a Cosmopolitan. A few minutes pass. The bartender returns wich an icy glass of scotch for Christopher Hitchens, a little girly drink with a tiny little parasol for Mandyman, and nothing for RalphTheDog. "Why no beer for me?" inquires RalphTheDog. "Because Mandyman wrote this joke, and the ladies just don't get that no one ever orders 'a beer'!!! WTF am I supposed to bring you? A fooking Clydesdale???!!!" RalphTheDog, Christopher Hitchens and the Bartender all wrap their arms around their bellies and share a hearty laugh. "Ho, ho, ho!!!" Mandyman, frustrated again at inability finding humour, returns to the web to post surprising vaginal art, something she can always fall back on.
• One more thing: Most of them, though, when you come to review the situation, are hefty or dykey or Jewish, or some combo of the three. Statements like this do nothing to advance civilization.
• In any case, my argument doesn't say that there are no decent women comedians. There are more terrible female comedians than there are terrible male comedians, but there are some impressive ladies out there. Most of them, though, when you come to review the situation, are hefty or dykey or Jewish, or some combo of the three. Classy! I caught an interview with Hitchens on NPR recently... he and the interviewer were talking about James Bond movies, and Hitch was going on at length about how to recognize a good martini. He sounded very authoritative and in his element, but seeing as how he's a big alcoholic I would have expected no less.
• I'm hilarious!
• Me too, but I'm a fat Jew dyke, so it just stands to reason.
• Did no one get my Maude Lebowski reference in that sand sculpture thread? For the record, I like my alcohol mixed with alcohol, and an olive thrown in to replensish my electrolytes. Hitchens sorta lost all credibility with me a long time ago, I read his stuff more for the train wreck than anything else. And yes, Medusa is indeed quite funny.
• And koko, had I paid attention to preview.
• OK -- I'm not done yet. Assuming for the moment that it's true that men need to be funny in order to attract a woman, and that women do not need to be funny to attract men. Assuming it, for the sake of argument. If humour is a sign of intelligence, then men would be appealing to a woman's intelligence. Women would not need to appeal to a man's intelligence. SO. Women are judging on the basis of intelligence. Which is the more intelligent of the two approaches. This implies that women are more intelligent than men (which I would largely agree with, but not for this reason). So men are using intelligence to appeal to women, even though women are smarter than men. Using intelligence to appeal to someone who's smarter than you. THIS MAKES NO SENSE. Logically, then, women with their greater intelligence would demonstrate a greater capacity for humour, which trashes Hitchens' entire argument. THIS MAKES NO SENSE. CHEWBACCA LIVES ON ENDOR.
• Of course women aren't funny. After all, there are only two kinds of women: the ones that laugh at men's jokes, thereby providing an appreciative audience for the superior male wit; and humorless feminists.
• oh come on! we all know that women need very healthy, robust senses of humor to deal with the biggest joke of all: MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /kidding, of course
• If Hitchens isn't kidding, then he and anyone who agrees with him should have their evolutionary fitness reduced with a claw hammer. If he is kidding, the joke sucked.
• There are two types of people in the world. Those who divide people into two groups. And those who don't.
• MonkeyFilter: surprisingly vaginal.
• I see that RalphTheDog and Hitchen's women now have something in common.
• *throws cream pie in own face*
• I must be very lucky. Some of the funnier people I know are women.
• Har.
• I wish I could afford to be as drunk as Hitchens is, all of the time, like he is. The great thing for him, is, that even tho' what he writes is blithering nonsense easily dismantled by 1st year debating club university students, he *doesn't have to acknowledge that* because he is still so unbelievably drunk. What an amazing mind!
• Of course I've never done this myself, *cough* especially not with any of you fellas, *cough cough* but I've heard some other women say that it's easier to just go ahead and laugh at a man's jokes even if you don't find them funny.
• His recent much-puffed work on Tom Paine is apparently an error-riddled pile of shite too. Sample: Hitchens’s casual attitude to facts is not compensated for by a corresponding precision with ideas....
• I think Koko would kick Hitchens's ass at a dinner party. *Two folks look up from circle of laughter with Koko at its center. "Who's that sad-looking guy sitting with no one talking to him?" "Poor guy, that's the Hitch."
• I think Koko would kick Hitchens's ass at a dinner party. *Two folks look up from circle of laughter with Koko at its center. "Who's that sad-looking guy sitting with no one talking to him?" "Poor guy, that's the Hitch."
• Why did the chicken cross the road?
• Can you repeat that, HawthorneWingo?

• 'I don't want to belittle the events of September 11 - they were devastating. They were beyond devastating....' She stops; words can't express her pain. 'I don't want to say especially for these people, or especially for those people but... especially for me.' She lowers her sleek eyebrows. The audience in the little North Hollywood theatre takes a nervous breath. Her voice gets gritty: 'Because it happened to be the same exact day that I found out that the soy chai latte was, like, 900 calories.' There's a titter. I'm thinking - you can't do this in America? Can you? 'I had been drinking them every day.' She shakes her head. 'You know, you hear soy, you think healthy... And it's a lie.' Words fail her. Pause. Regather. 'It was also the day we were attacked...'

  If women aren't funny, how come the world's hottest, most controversial comedian is female?
• Hitchens makes me igry.
• But is she hot? Because the funny is all about the appearence. It's the trope that keeps on troping.
• I don't get RalphTheDog's joke... does this make me a woman? [Trembles in terror, tingles with excitement]
• *comps islander's drink*
• "Trope, trope, trope," (sung to the tune of Monty Python's "spam" song. Give me a break, I have that low-light disorder. I wish I could hibernate.
• It starts at a very young age. As I understand it, studies show that teachers call on boys more than girls in class. Boys are encouraged to speak in class more than girls are. Boys making jokes is acceptable, if not praiseworthy. Girls acting up or making jokes is deemed unladylike. Things do not begin on an even plane. Boys are rewarded for trying to entertain and be funny. Girls are reprimanded for the same behavior. It would follow that boys have more of an opportunity to practice being funny -- they are encouraged to do so. Also, people tend to laugh at things based on who is telling the joke or acting out. The greater the perceived position of power, the funnier people think the person is. When a priest tells a joke, the audience laughs much more than they would if it were not a priest telling the joke. George Bush or Bill Clinton don't have to say something funny to get a laugh. They merely have to intend to be funny and they will get a huge laugh. This type of humor is derived from the release of tension caused by a person of power making a joke. I see judges do it everyday in court. The audience laughs heartily at something that might not be funny at all in another context. As men hold far more positions of power in our society, the perception is such that people believe men to be funnier than women.
• Dorothy Parker. (thanks Cap'n!) Mae West. Molly Picon. Aphra Behn. Elaine May. Lily Tomlin. Phyllis Diller. Rhona Cameron. Hattie Hayridge. Jenny Eclair. Jo Brand. Shazia Mirza. And all the others I can't remember because it's stupid o'clock and I'm sleep deprived. Maybe a better title for the article would be "One po-faced columnist doesn't find women funny"? Is there anything so utterly lacking in humor as a mother discussing her new child? She is unboreable on the subject. Even the mothers of other fledglings have to drive their fingernails into their palms and wiggle their toes, just to prevent themselves from fainting dead away at the sheer tedium of it. And as the little ones burgeon and thrive, do you find that their mothers enjoy jests at their expense? I thought not. I had lunch today with a friend who refers to her 3-month-old daughter as "Bottomless Feeding Machine" and spent most of the conversation talking about her crush on Griff Rhys Jones instead.
• I think bernockle may be onto something... all of the class clowns and doofuses I remember were boys. Of course their humor often sharpened as they got older. It seemed the girls usually avoided that whole scene... my impression at the time was always that they didn't want to get in trouble or that it was beneath them.
• Ugh, please. Making people laugh is one of my favorite things. There are plenty of funny men and women in this world.
• I used to be class clown. Now I'm just angry, and I poke puppies with sticks.
• Coming Soon From Mandyman: Why Hermaphrodites & The Transgendered Aren't Funny Hater.
• 
• Do women pull their punchlines? This one holds the all-time record of 12 ppm (punchlines per minute).
• Most recently, Diller has suffered serious medical problems which culminated in her being pronounced clinically dead for three minutes. She has since retired from standup performance. Perfect.
• Yeah, but dwarves are funny. Unlike women, Kikes, Nig-Nogs and 4WDs parked next to you at the supermarket so you can't see to get out. Oh, and Christopher Hitchens, who will doubtless be devastated by this thread.
• no way. some of the absolute funniest people I know are women. My friend T is smoothly raunchy and jawdroppingly incisive. A conversation with my friend C is a post-modern absurdist adventure. Hell, my friend J can make milk squirt out of someone's nose at 200 paces! oh and Sarah Silverman.
• Pauline McLynn Fiona Allen, Doon Mackichan, and Sally Phillips
• Monkeyfilter: women, Kikes, Nig-Nogs, and 4WDs
• So the list of things women can't do (as well as) men now grows from pissing standing and doing science to include saying jokes? Might as well take away their right to vote and send them back to the kitchen.
• P.S., being a man, I don't care about writing Englishly correct sentences.
• So talently, my boychik.
• Yeah because if there’s one guy who knows funny, it’s the Hitch. And hell yeah - SarahfuckingSilverman. Funny is funny. There are more male CEOs, that doesn’t mean women don’t know how to CE. (I’d rather have a vaginal surprise than be surprisingly vaginal, y’know, like coitus)
• *fixes the television*
• "The attitude dictates that you don't care whether she comes, stays, lays, or prays. I mean whatever happens, your toes are still tappin'."
• I think most comedians aren't funny, including Silverman. Of course I usually only like very absurdist humor, which usually only plays itself out in skit formats. Most of my ex's have a stellar sense of humor, and make me laugh as much as I make them laugh. They also tend to intimidate most people they are around. I believe that the really good absurdist humor reflects directly back on society, pointing out the absurdity of our own positions within it. Most of the girls I really liked see this and gives them a bit of snarkiness that a great deal of people find a little too challenging to their sensibilities.
• There is just not enough references to vaginas in this thread.
• hoo ha!
• There is just not enough references to vaginas in this thread. Only someone with a vagina would say that.
• I was with a vagina recently. Does that count?
• Was it funny?
• In a laid-back sort of way.
• Ummmmmmm, AMY SEDARIS, ladies and gentlemen. Also, David Cross tells a great joke about dead infants. In reference to the music of Creed: "I would rather hear the death rattle of my only child than have to listen to that crap..... Yeah, it's that serious." He also makes excellent fun of annoying gushy parents (both mommies and daddies) on the first track of "It's Not Funny."
• RalphTheDog: I can find no other way to put this - WTF? I've stared, analyzed, and obsessed over your comment and that's all I got. So, again, WTF?
• My token gay friend called vaginas "the bologna flaps." (followed by very gay shudder of disgust) That was funny, so girls are funny, but only through jokes delivered by your local token gay friend.
• DMN: ("I've stared, analyzed, and obsessed over your comment") Let it go. The internet can be a confusing world at times. Go back to whatever you were doing. Think about your happy place!
• Twisty's take on Hitchens's piece. "What Hitchens actually writes, using the stupid/smart formula in explaining why men are so much more fucking hilarious than women, is “Wit, after all, is the unfailing symptom of intelligence. Men will laugh at almost anything, often precisely because it is — or they are — extremely stupid. Women aren’t like that.” There is no reason to refute Hitchens’ “argument”; it reminds me of one of those jokey emails sexist asshole bosses love to circulate around offices (”How many men does it take to open a beer? None! It should be open when she brings it.”). Which is to say, his argument’s so stupid it refutes itself..... In any event, I mention the Hitchens piece not to ignite some big, obvious “but of course women are funny” discussion, but I do like to take the opportunity of Hitchens’ embarrassment to remind the enlightened blamer that the ‘men = stupid, women = smart’ schtick is dude-code for “what follows is a lot of hilarious misogynist chick-bashing and glorification of our glittering male privilege, but it’s cool because chicks dig it when you pretend you notice their brains at all."
• Err, Hitchens criticism of M. Theresa is spot-on. Just because it upsets someone middle-class values and sounds "shocking" doesnt mean its not a fair criticism. For whatever reason there is a lack of women in comedy. There is also a lack of men in communications, arts & crafts, fashion, etc. I guess its not proper or PC to ask the reasons why.
• As a single father, I get a great deal of prejudice from teachers/mothers of daughters friends. Some believe men are not equipped to raise a child by themselves.
• Tina Fey. No more proof is needed about females being funny.
• Yeah, totally, Tina Fey is not funny at all. ...or did you mean the other way? I don’t know that Hitch is being directly sexist in the “told her twice already” sense. More of an incidental sexism. No, I think he’s merely engaging in a wrong headed sort of hack commedian “white guys walk like this, but black guys walk like THIS” kinda thing. Reading the article it occurs to me that one could say, in the same way Hitch thinks women aren’t funny, that men aren’t sexy. Consider - two men kissing would not be a box office draw (absent loads of talent - e.g. an Ang Lee, et.al). So a male version of Tatu wouldn’t really go anywhere. There are rarely male bi scenes in pornos, but there’s always a two chick scene. A girl whispering to a guy (I’m into women too, let’s pick her up) is a major turn on for the guy. A guy whispering (I’m into guys too, let’s pick him up) probably not so much for the girl. But those statements, as with Hitch’s article, have many holes, exceptions, etc. etc. and it’s predicated on the male view of what ‘sexy’ is, which happens to be the dominant perspective in society. It takes very little thought to riff on that perspective without considering the subject matter at all, be it funny or sexy. And indeed, it is that which this article has in spades: little thought. (but white guys totally walk like they’re trying to keep a potato chip between their butt cheeks while black guys walk like they’re trying to shake change loose - totally)
• For whatever reason there is a lack of women in comedy. There is also a lack of men in communications, arts & crafts, fashion, etc. I guess its not proper or PC to ask the reasons why. Rofflecopter!
• Reading the article it occurs to me that one could say, in the same way Hitch thinks women aren’t funny, that men aren’t sexy. Consider - two men kissing would not be a box office draw (absent loads of talent - e.g. an Ang Lee, et.al). So a male version of Tatu wouldn’t really go anywhere. There are rarely male bi scenes in pornos, but there’s always a two chick scene. This exposes where the sexism is coming from: ie. the problem of other people in a subjective, gendered existence. Women are funny and men are sexy. Gay men still look at porn. The problem with being able to detect either of these things is 100% reference level and nothing more. Nothing to do with intelligence, but god damn it: farts are hillarious. I think everyone can agree with that.
• 'Beware the Rofflecopter, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the homunculus bird, and shun The frumious smedleyman!'
• “This exposes where the sexism is coming from: ie. the problem of other people in a subjective, gendered existence.” Exactly. And Hitch really chose not to consider any of that at all and go for the lazy observation. Seriously, how is it people like that make money? It’s not even really entertaining. I can see through to the sexist undertones and presumption and the short shrift given to giving the actual subject any consideration and I’m just some philistine with an internets. Why aren’t magazine editors packing cash into my pockets for the most rudimentary observations? Heh heh - farts. Yeah. Y’know what this piece also reminds me of? Speaking of farts. That scene in “Good Will Hunting” where Will breaks the silence and tells Shawn a joke and it’s just shallow. It’s a blah sort of guy joke. And he aplogizes for telling it in the first person, ‘cause it didn’t happen to him. And then Shawn explains how his wife’s farts woke up the dog, nothing ‘jokey’ at all, and they both have deep belly laughs. Kinda like that. Big difference between the meaningful deep experiential humor - or anything really - and this sort of shallow wannabe funny trite garbage. I suppose neither gender has a corner on that jokey pap, but Hitch is doing pretty well capturing it from the male side. Not that I think he intended to parody of course. *stows vorpal sword*
• I read the title in the sidebar and thought it was about Hitchcock. Then I was thinking "Yeah, he didn't really have any good comic roles for women. Except maybe To Catch a Thief. Or possibly The Trouble with Harry. Honestly, why do people bother reading this Hitchens character if he writes bollox of this calibre?
• Maybe to bitch about hitch in the absence of things to loathe?
• Well, speaking of Tiny Fey, how come the men of SNL so often move on to big movie careers (from Eddie Murpuy & Bill Murray to Adam Sandler & Will Ferrel), but it's incredibly rare that women of SNL do? (Can't think of any, actually...)
• Janeane Garofalo? Molly Shannon? Gilda Radner? (Oh God yes, Gilda Radner.) Jane Curtin? Julia Sweeney?
• Oh, Madeline Kahn. And Joan Cusack was nominated for an Oscar for a supporting role in Working Girl.
• Also Julia Louis-Dreyfus.
• Well, not big movie career, I guess ...
• *sits back, continues to enjoy the mofemales I love and laugh with tearing the dumb fucker down*
• I dunno why they're still going on about it, this is Hitchens. He's always wrong and he's always drunk. Forget him.
• Thanks for the list, tracicle. Joan Cusack and Janeane Garofalo, yeah, they've both gone pretty big in movies. But the others, well, no -- they've never achieved that movie super-stardom that the SNL guys appear to have. Check IMDB if you doubt this. Gilda Radner probably illustrates this a little too well -- a comic genius, just no big movie success. (And why did Dana Carvey not go on to movie super-stardom? Waynes World 1 & 2 were the pinnacle of his movie career, and he basically carried that show for several years.)
• He's always drunk? Well...that actually has him up a notch in my book. (more of a trapper keeper than a formal "book" really, but I've got the loose leaf paper with this information stowed in one of the folders). Janeane Garofalo, wow, yeah. I had a thing for her a bit back. Very cute, funny. And yet, I know we'd totally not get along with each other. Not even an issues thing. Just two people totally not made for each other. Silverman reminds me a bit of Radner. I was going to say a bit more dangerous, but Guilda had a definite edge. ...jesus, Hitchens just has his head way up his ass. I'm gonna go key his car.
• Catherine O'Hara was also briefly on SNL. I remembered her later, but I adore her ad-lib characters in all Christopher Guest's mockumentaries. Yeah, I was talking about that in #mofirc earlier, trying to think of other SNL women that made it big, and I know they're not "big" as such. I can't even think right now of movie roles that require real comedy from women -- they're always in the straight supporting role against people like Jim Carrey, Adam Sandler or Mike Myers (Wayne's World 1 and 2, for example) or John Candy/Steve Martin/the list goes on and on. More women scriptwriters/producers to create the comedic female roles? I know this didn't start out being about movie characters, but damned if I can think of any now that I've started trying.
• Catherine O'Hara - I was trying to remember her name. She was on SCTV with Rick Moranis, John Candy, Eugene Levy and Dave Thomas. I know what you mean about women playing supporting straight roles in comedy. I think it's because the writers can't be bothered thinking of an interesting female character, and so just go wasting the female talent. When they do have funny women (Lily Tomlin with Steve Martin, even whats-her-name in Something about Mary) along with the funny men, the movie is much better. Though there are cases where the woman carries the show - like Jenny Elfman in Dharma & Greg.
• I think Tina Fey has realized that to get good comedic roles she has to write them herself -- and she's done that with Mean Girls and 30 Rock. I'm not a big fan of 30 Rock, but I *am* a fan of her writing for herself, because I think that's how lots of male SNL alums got famous.
• Joyce Grenfell. Don't do that, George, it's not nice.
• Y'all can suck my muscular manly clit!
• And why did Dana Carvey not go on to movie super-stardom? Waynes World 1 & 2 were the pinnacle of his movie career, and he basically carried that show for several years. Because his range is extremely limited. His 3 or 4 characters were a staple of the show while he was on, but he by no means carried it. Phil Hartman? Dennis Miller? Chris Rock? Mike Myers? Chris Farley? HELLO? I think the reason we don't see more female comedic actors making it big on the big screen is that A) as jb said, most screenwriters are men, and are not as comfortable writing comic material for women, and B) for some reason, people are less comfortable with a woman being funny than with a man. Being funny frequently involves being awkward, self-depracating, rude, arrogant, hostile, stupid, crude, or some combination of these to varying degrees. These are not things that many people are comfortable seeing a woman do. It's unladylike. I've seen this reaction in peoples' faces all my life. They laugh, but it's an uncomfortable laugh, because it's the kind of joke only a man should be doing. They expect it from a man, and welcome it. A woman can be funny, but ... not like that. Of course, there are plenty of people who love funny women. But not enough for film producers to feel comfortable putting them in starring roles, and not enough to make up for the fact that there aren't enough writers comfortable with writing comedy for a woman.
• What Koko said. She smrt.
• check's in the mail Which is why Sarah Silverman's act works. She says some pretty horrifying things, but her delivery is very feminine. Do you think Janeane Garofolo, with her deadpan delivery, would be able to do those jokes and not be booed off stage?
• Silverman teteers in the cute/unattractive border for me. And her jokes... ah, don't know. I read that one reason Carvey didn't rise as he should have was a sicknees that left him out of filmmaking for several years, while Carrey and others exploded the 'wacky guy' shtick. That, plus his film: what the hell was that?!?
• Which is why Sarah Silverman's act works. She says some pretty horrifying things, but her delivery is very feminine. Y'know that's why her act doesn't work for me. I'm not buying it for some reason. At least the half-hour I've seen. It's too cloying. Do you think Janeane Garofolo . . Which is opposite, because I totally buy her act. Dunno why that is. I am not hung up! Hey - I've laid lotsa times.
• Well, Garofolo doesn't make jokes about the Holocaust and 9/11. Which was the point I was making there. Anyway, I think they're both a hoot, except I'm still mad at Garofolo for totally stealing my persona. I was doing that deadpan thing since jr. high, fucking bitch.
• I have had a crush on Janeane Garofolo for years.
• Oooahh! Rong time for frapping dickie! /Uhhgghh
• What bugs me about SIlverman is that no matter how honed her act is, if she hadn't happened to have been born beautiful she wouldn't HAVE an act. Maybe that's small-minded of me, but there it is.
• She might still have an act, but it would probably have to be a different act. You kinda do have to be pretty to pull off her routine.
• Exactly, TUM! To me it seems just too "oh look at the nice girl with such a potty mouth" shock-value.
• I don't know if I was saying that it was because most of the writers are male (though it's very likely that they are), but I was thinking of their laziness altogether. It's more effort to come up with two interesting characters for a comedy than just one. So they come up with a funny guy and a pretty girl. But I think Koko is exactly right when she says that being funny means being awkward and unladylike. Jenny Elfman is a beautiful woman - but she is less attractive in the persona of Dharma (because of the goofiness) than she is in person (whereas most actresses are the other way round). Hitchens the idiot said it outright, though in a really prejudiced way. (Apparently he thinks Jewish women are unattractive, though as has been noted, Sarah Silverman is stunningly beautiful). And how many unattractive women are there in the media? Some more in Britain than in the US, where there are almost none. Maybe that's why Britain has some great women comics - French & Saunders (who are right now making a hilarious show about older women in a little English village, called Jam and Jerusalem), Catherine Tate, etc.
• Things I Learned from Reading "Why Women Aren't Funny"
• Christopher Hitchens Visits St. Margaret's School for Young Women, Where He Discovers Little Girls Aren't Funny, Either. Includes the genius line, "The girls just oohed and aahed over little Lance's picture, their young uteruses already crowding out their funny bones."