It was a special series of links that only Vegans can see.
And now, a WTF moment: WTF is the problem with eggs and dairy? Nobody gets hurt. Also, road kill.
Like, cows and chickens should be free, man.
see also joel fuhrman's eat to live on this topic. fuhrman bases a lot of his recommendations on the "cornell china study". i find his arguments persuasive, and i've been pushing my mum toward veganism since her bypass surgery.
> WTF is the problem with eggs and dairy?
ralph, it's simple health. dairy in particular contains a lot of fat that is not good for the human body. there's no question of being nice to bunnies here, it's just what is good and what is bad for you. you can eat eggs and dairy in moderation without obvious ill effects, but once you go beyond moderate consumption your health will suffer.
According to the article, it only helps eliminate type-2 diabetes, which is the kind you get from eating poorly. So that makes sense.
I didn't see in the article where it said the diet could help type-1, so this diet isn't a magic cure for all diabetes.
I don't think that's the vegan standpoint with regards to eggs and dairy, roryk.
I think the vegan standpoint is that eggs and dairy are still exploitation of the animal (and in factory conditions, that's totally true).
> I don't think that's the vegan standpoint with regards to eggs and dairy, roryk.
that's not what i intended to convey. my point was that the no eggs and dairy in this context (diabetes treatment) is from a health perspective.
I am having pork for tea tonight.
Haven't you guys ever seen Southpark?
A vegetarian diet turns you into a giant pussy!
As a Vegetarian:
Fuck, yes.
Maybe I'm just not awake yet, but from what I can tell these two diets didn't have equivilent fat, sugar, or possibly total calories. If that's the the case, well duh, the more restrictive one worked better--people with type 2 diabetes can reverse its effects by losing weight.
The minute Abiezer slips from his vegan diet, his girlish figure goes straight to hell.
I was a vegetarian for six months.
It was the fartiest six months of my life.
> I don't think that's the vegan standpoint with regards to eggs and dairy, roryk
Chimaera. I have been vegan for a bit more than two and a half years. I don't do it for the bunnies either. I do it for my own health, and for exactly the reasons stated by roryk. Dairy and cheese tend to have too much fat (and other ill effects from various drugs used on the cows), and eggs have more cholesterol than I like (I try and have a 0-cholesterol diet, and most days it works).
the fartiest six months of my life
Vegetarianism causes global warming.
Low fat diet = hungry hungry hungry = setup for diet failure.
I'm trying to understand the obsession with people wanting to cut fat out of their diet. Food fat != body fat. If one is doing it for cholesterol, great, but most people on diets are in it to get rid of weight.
Sure, sure, but what about us Type 1's? The Type 2's get all the publicity!
I'm cooking a hamburger right now. Also I've hunted and killed animals before. Cuddly ones.
Just thought it was worth mentioning.
Vegetarianism causes global warming.
Dunno about that, but it sure causes seat warming.
Sorry Sean. No, I mean I'm sorry, Sean.
Re: Dairy and eggs, and rationale thereof:
It depends on the vegan. My experience (as a vegetarian) with those that call themselves vegans is that usually they have ethical and/or environmental motivations. People that eat vegan or vegetarian for health reasons alone tend to be less strict.
Sorry Sean. No, I mean I'm sorry, Sean
Now that was the best zombie movie ever.
Irrefutable argument for eating critters:
If we're not suppossed to eat them why are they made out of meat?
Y'know, although I'm sure they exists somewhere, I've never known a single vegetarian who put down meat-eaters, tried to convince meat-eaters to change, or insinuated that there was something inherently wrong with the netal status of meat-eaters. But the instant vegetarianism works its way into a conversation, there are at least three of four people who feel honor-bound to bring up their latest gory hunting story, go on and on about how God's great design means we should eat animals, etc. Some people eat meat. Some people don't. We all have our reasons.
Damn that stick mouse. I mean to conclude, we all have our reasons, and neither side needs to defend them.
Sorry for the rant. I had a coworker go off on me last week about how "all I needed was a good steak," for the umpteenth time.
Now that was the best zombie movie ever.
You know this to be true.
And for the record, zombies eat meat.
I've never seen a zombie with a vitamin B12 deficiency!
TUM: Amen. What's up with that? Sheesh.
Also there's going to a restaurant and as the only vegetarian in the group, having everyone else try to pick out what you can eat for you. "Look, they have salad! Oooh, and pasta with vegetables! You can eat that, can't you?"
Heh.
Irrefutable argument for eating humans:
If we're not supposed to eat them why are they made out of meat?
You are what you eat.
TUM my experience varies from yours to a degree. Most of the vegetarians I've known/cooked for have been been pretty cool, but there were some who were not so charming, like the one who would go though my garbage to make sure that I hadn't sneaked in any verboten stuff.
I usually steer clear of this stuff for the reasons TUM outlines above.
I'm a vegan purely for reasons of compassion - I am lucky enough to have been born in a wealthy developed society where I don't need to eat meat. Anyone who knows me - in fact, anyone who's seen the way I live for ten minutes - will tell you that I'm certainly not doing it for the good of my health.
I don't think killing and eating animals is wrong myself. I grew up in a farming community and shot my fair share of small creatures as a lad. I can't get over the commodification of a living creature with the capacity for pain that is implicit in most modern farming.
Add to that that being vegan has been incredibly easy. It's a moral discipline I've maintained for more than twenty years now, and I gain from the constant reminder of the fucked-up nature of our age of first world plenty, abundant cheap food and the diseases of affluence alongside easily preventable hunger and malnutrition elsewhere.
Veganism is a gesture and alone won't change much, but it's been part of making me a better person than I otherwise might have been.
Of course, mandy has me pegged really - I'm just trying to hang on to my girly figure. Don't grass me up to the vegan police.
Sure, sure, but what about us Type 1's? The Type 2's get all the publicity!
nah nah.
TUM - I have.
There used to be a girl, who I will not mention by name, who was involved in a certain music fandom (dedicated to a band/singer who may or may not once have put out a song called "Meat is Murder" - this band/singer may or may not have many vegetarian and vegan fans). She was notorious for coming into online forums and abusing people at lengths for not being vegan, including comparing any non-vegans to Hitler. She was also convinced that dogs could and should be vegan, which is simply not the case (dogs don't just get farty from too much fiber - they can get torsion and bloat, which will kill them). I only dealt with her in that capacity, but I was led to believe by people who knew her in person that she also behaved this way IRL. I don't know if she does anymore, and I certainly wouldn't want to start anything with her.
She is not the only foul-tempered and preachy vegan I have encountered. I try to ignore those occurrences. I have personal health reasons why I can't be vegan (and personal taste reasons like "I like honey" - which exploits bees, but I believe it's one of those things that some vegans will eat and others won't). I do think most vegans give up being preachy and making snide comments once they're into their mid-20s, if they ever behaved that way at all (and that their ill-manneredness can be ascribed to personality, not to what they eat or don't eat). It seems like it's often just the zeal of the recent convert, and maybe youthful insouciance, coming into play.
I don't think there's much wrong with being a vegan for either reason, except that many vegans I've known refused to wear leather. Nothing wrong with that, either, except most were on limited budgets and still wanted to wear leather substitutes. Cheap "vegan" shoes and PVC clothing are usually manufactured in a way that is anything but Earth-friendly.
It has also always seemed weird to me that most vegans I know expend considerable energy trying to duplicate non-vegan dishes, up to and including things that they probably wouldn't be so enthusiastic about having if the foods actually were vegan to begin with (gelatin, gelatin-containing-marshmallows, etc - I mean, I'm "allowed" to have these things, and I touch them maybe once each year or two at most). Sometimes this involves using processed, quasi-synthetic foods that seem to make the whole health point moot. I don't really get it, but hell, it's not like anyone needs my permission. (It just seems to me like it would be easier to not eat marshmallows at all than to angst about how marshmallows can't be eaten because they have gelatin in them, and about how vegans the world over are working on marshmallow recipes but not quite nailing it. Actually, last I heard, someone might have finally nailed the marshmallow recipe, but for years I knew at least ten people who were upset that they were vegan and marshmallows aren't!)
Other than that, I think it's really good to try to eat at least a few vegetarian or vegan meals each week, whether you're vegan or not. They're mostly not that weird, as foods go, usually pretty tasty if prepared well, and they're usually healthier than a meaty meal. One way to start is just to buy some frozen entrees that look good from somewhere like Whole Foods or the organic section of a grocery store - stuff by Amy's (I like the enchiladas and the lasagne), Gardenburgers, etc. Yeah, processed food. :)
"I like honey" - which exploits bees
I'd like to have Beeswacky weigh in on this. Bees?
path, it sort of sounds to me like that customer was more interested in what you were putting in her food than what you were eating yourself.
verbminx, I'm not talking about obvious wingnuts like that girl, who would have found something else to be wingnutty about if she hadn't found veganism. I'm talking about otherwise regular, ordinary people who can't get it through their thick skulls that someone else's choices can be as valid as their own.
It's like comparing cross-burning, lynching homophobics to the well-meaning but infuriating people who tell their gay friends that they're "going to pray for them."
And as tinfoil-hatty as that customer may have seemed, she probably grew up with parents like my friend's, who would sneak beef broth or pureed meat into the side dishes so they could say to him afterwards, "See? You ate meat and it didn't kill you."
I've never known a single vegetarian who put down meat-eaters, tried to convince meat-eaters to change, or insinuated that there was something inherently wrong with the netal status of meat-eaters. But the instant vegetarianism works its way into a conversation, there are at least three of four people who feel honor-bound to bring up their latest gory hunting story, go on and on about how God's great design means we should eat animals, etc.
Maybe you need to meet more people. That shit runs both ways.
Like TUM, I don't see any reason for people on either side to try and force their way of eating on anyone else. I eat meat, but I always ask vegitarian friends and acquaintances if they're ok with me eating something meaty when we go out together for the first time. I also make sure there's something everyone can eat on the menu when I get to pick where we go out. It's more polite, in that everyone is made as comfy as possible.
I'm equally annoyed with vegitarians who yell at me for eating a steak (while they're wearing leather shoes and belts -- as TUM and verbminx say, this is mostly overzealous people who'd probably be annoying about something else anyway) and meat eaters who want to take a group that includes vegitarians to a steakhouse or BBQ joint and blithely assume that the veggies will be satisfied with a side salad or baked potato.
Maybe you need to meet more people. That shit runs both ways.
Well, I DID preface that with "I'm sure they're out there," didn't I?
If god didn't want me eating meat he would not have given me these awesome canines to rend flesh.
*admires canines in mirror*
Anyway I spend alot of time reading culture junk, ya know about people and stuff, because I got a BA in Anthropology. It is really not about the meat, its about the quantity of meat. We ain't designed to eat the high level of crap we eat everyday. You really shouldn't have meat with every meal. Maybe once a week would suffice. Otherwise you become a big lard butt and get your legs amputated.
*studies svelt figure in mirror*
Side not:
I got this friend who is fat and is leading her kid down the same road. Kids favorite sandwich is two slices of bread with butter on both slices with a pile of sugar sandwiched in there.
That is two cents worth of fitness kickass from glamajamma. now I need to go pickup some cigs.
I've only run into a few preachy, strident vegans/vegetarians (usually online) but I know they're out there - someone is making those PETA shock videos, right? However, I've run into a lot more obnoxious omnivores, like TUM alludes to.
I don't eat meat. I don't especially care if you do, as long as you don't wave your bloody rare steak over my plate and let it drip to see if I'll still eat my food. (Yes, this has happened, and no, I didn't.) But I do think all omnovires should try some vegetarian and vegan dishes, just to find out that it's good, tasty, not-weird food, and help spare more vegetarians being served nothing but a plate of crudites at the family gatherings. (And hey, y'all might like it, leading to wider availability of veg choices for those of us who are vegetarian or vegan!)
I take great personal pleasure in pronouncing "crudites" as if it rhymes with "Luddites." Not that I don't like 'em; it's just more fun that way.
Yeah, I think taunting vegetarians is retarded. Exacly what does one gain from dribbling meat juices on someone's food, or sneaking in meat just to prove it won't kill them? I mean, who would sneak pork into a Jewish person's sandwich just to prove that swine are perfectly good to eat?
(Unfortunately, the reverse tactic doesn't work, as a meat eater will still eat his steak if a vegetarian brushes an asparagus stalk over it in a taunting manner.)
I have one veggie friend who doesn't eat meat because it upsets her stomach, and when we're out in the field, we take great pains to make sure that she and the other veggies in the group are provided for. That's just what grownups do.
Dietary choices are not negotiable, and should not be ridiculed nor shoved down anyone's throat. A vegan who calls me a murderer is going to get the response of, "You bet your tree-hugging ass it is!"
For me, I cannot eat any animal products that are not organic, or my hormones get all unbalanced, setting off a nasty chain of events that will not be discussed with all these menfolk hovering about.
It's interesting to see how all of you weigh in on this issue-and It's lovely how accepting and open those who voice their opinions seem to be. I have been a vegan for the past two years and am so happy and proud of my decision, but in regards to why many of us strive to replicate our favorite non-veggie dishes, the answer is simple! It was so delicious! I don't think there is anything wrong to want foods that are similiar to those you grew up with, and of course they aren't exactly the same but still delicious. I finally have perfected a recipe for mock mac and cheese and it is wayyyy good! Honestly it tastes like cheese to me, but I think as our diets change we start to forget exactly what the old foods tasted like so it doesnt matter if it is a true replica.
In regards to sneaking meat products in that of veggie people- please never ever do this to anyone. Not only is that mean, but you will have a very very ill person on your hands. Over spring break I went to las vegas with some friends, and after a very long night it was hard to find a restaurant open. Finally we came upon an italian place that could cook us up some spaghetti and marinara. I woke up at about 4 in the morning and spent till about 1 pm the next day with horrible sickness out both ends- my meat eating friend was not sick. We went back to the restaurant because I suspected there had been meat in the sauce-sure enough boiled with beef bones. Now this was my own fault I should have really checked but what really makes me wonder is why people who havn't eaten meat for so long have such a horrible physical reaction when it enters their body sometime later. People that have tofu for the first time don't spend hours in the bathroom that night.
Irrefutable argument for eating humans:
If we're not supposed to eat them why are they made out of meat?
Tastes like chicken!
Well, I DID preface that with "I'm sure they're out there," didn't I?
Dude I don't read any comments on this site.
Now this was my own fault I should have really checked but what really makes me wonder is why people who havn't eaten meat for so long have such a horrible physical reaction when it enters their body sometime later.
I'm really just making stuff up, but maybe the body loses its immunity to all the little bacteria that come with meat?
Do they? I didn't eat meat for ten years and had absolutely zero adverse reaction when I started again.
It's my understanding the problems come because the stomach and gut stop making certain enzymes needed to digest animal protein if none has been coming down the pipes for long enough. It's not a permanent condition, but if a veg*an wants to return to eating meat it's recommended they start slow, with a tiny amount of fish or poultry, then work their way up to the cheeseburger. It's worse for vegans than ovo-lacto vegetarians, and it depends on the individual, too. Some people have hardier stomachs than others.
I agree with what freeasharold said about fake meat products and trying to replicate traditional meat dishes. There's the social aspect of food, like at a cookout or a BBQ or Thanksgiving dinner, and then some food combinations just go well, like pasta with a creamy sauce, or burger toppings on a bun with a veggie "meat" patty or a big portabello mushroom cap.
Surely there are more ludicrous topics on which humanity may divide up into sides and yell at each other, hmm?
I think one big issue is finding dishes that are easy to make and taste good (in regards to people who are keen meat-eaters).
A friend managed to track down this fab book for me in which they've worked out a stack of ways to substitute tofu in traditional meaty dishes with no drama or pain whatsoever. Even the very carniverous Boy likes them.
Surely there are more ludicrous topics on which humanity may divide up into sides and yell at each other, hmm?
Man, those people with three letters in their screennames! They'll NEVER understand what we people with twenty letters in our screen names have to put up with! ;-)
20 letter people = buncha showoffs, if you ask me :D
And beware the all-lowercase people! They are WEIRDOS!!!
and communists, too! and I think 7th Day Adventists, but I have no independent confirmation of that.
Even though I'm a meat-eater, I am pretty darn addicted to a lot of the Morningstar Farms stuff. I love their chick patties and fake chicken nuggets, as well as what I call their "fakin' bacon." It's all yummy, and much lower fat than the real thing, so I can pretend I'm healthy :)
Surely there are more ludicrous topics on which humanity may divide up into sides and yell at each other, hmm?
Oh isn't that just typical! You right-wing conservo-loony blow-up-the-hamster crowd with your Tony Jacklin golf clubs and your Riki-Tiki-Tavi sock-hop fiestas!
Oh sure, just snark on the dividers and haters, why don'tcha?! Well I for one demand an apology! To be offered to the first bird seen, with - with feeling and possibly a tasty little nibbly bit of bread or cracker or some such other morselous material.
I demand satisfaction! I demand respect for the working television set! Two peas in every pot!
What?! Is the greatest-ah joy?!
(psst - it's "the joy of duty" . . go 'head, go 'head)
I apologize for nothing, poopiehead!
Now watch this drive...
Ah, that is to say, I don't eat meat because I oppose factory farming. Um, and the health, environmental, moral and economical reasons too.
I think the case against eggs and dairy are mostly "factory farm" reasons as well, although I don't drink milk myself because my stomach doesn't like it now.
I apologize for nothing, poopiehead!
Now watch this drive...
Can we still have the nibbly bread then?
Of course. Zuchini or cinnamon swirl? I got LOTS of the zuchini.
As long as the zucchini wasn't factory farmed.
Won't someone think of the zucchini?
rocket is.
I think of the zucchini whenever I see that guy at the hockey rink drive it around in circles.
No, that's a rigatoni.
Then what the hell is Sambuca?
The new latin dance sensation with 37% more Passion!
No...that's the lumbago.
I thought it was the Macaroni?
No no, Googliamo Macaroni invented the spray deodorant.
Nah, Goolio recorded "Gangsta's Paradise."
Life in the slaw lane
They say plants can't feel no pain
Life in the slaw lane
I've got news for you,
They're just as frail as you
That's a very corny poem.
You have no idea. ;-)
It's the chorus to a song from the mid-80s. The whole thing is much, much wurst.
Hans Liverwurst invented head cheese in 1844, and then again in 1852, almost eight years later!
Believe it . . or Not!
“meat” means the edible part of a carcass that is the muscle associated with the skeleton, tongue, diaphragm, heart, gizzard or mammalian oesophagus, with or without accompanying and overlying fat, together with those parts of the bones, skin, sinews, nerves, blood vessels and other tissues that normally accompany the muscle and are not ordinarily removed in dressing a carcass, but does not include the muscle associated with the lips, snout, scalp or ears, mechanically separated meat or meat to which an ingredient other than meat has been added. -Ontario Meat Inspection Regulations, 1990
Have you ever heard the Ontario Meat Inspection Regulator's Men's Chorus recording of Parsifal? Sublime.
Nop, but I have in fact heard that previous meat definition sung.
Mammalian oesophagus, with or without accompanying and overlying fat. It's what's for dinner.
Of course, they spell it "Pars-offal."
*collapse*
/Chy
I love a good sinew.
So liver isn't meat in Ontario - or kidneys - or tripe - or a pig's head?
So... what do they use to betoken a prince without peer is born this day to buy us dear?
ClamsVegetables got legs?