July 25, 2006

• I totally suck at nonverbals, so I'm not much help there. I'm wondering though - in between these trips with large numbers of people, does she spend most of her time alone or in your company? Could that be what's making it such a striking contrast for her?
• Oh, my RPman. I feel for you. Thanks for being brave enough to post that. Someone who finds fault in themselves and blames that fault on a spouse is almost always in serious denial. Unless you are confining her, stifling her, or pretty much being a dominant, controlling prick, you are not the cause of her problems. I can't help you with nonverbal communication, but I can advise you to seek help, preferably as a couple. She is giving you a guilt trip you don't need or deserve. Get out there, find therapy, do NOT let this weigh on your shoulders. It isn't you.
• I'm not qualified to comment, so I wasn't going to, but Ralph summed up what I was thinking. And like TUM maybe implied, maybe she just needs to get out and have more social interaction in her life.
• If you are having such a powerful influence on her own interpretations of other people, then it sounds like she's not spending enough time around other people. She needs friends, and scenarios outside of the home to cling to for emotional evocation. Get her to join a quilting group or start volunteering. Whatever she needs. The problem is obviously one of communication, so fix it at the core: I would recommend simply telling each other how you feel with words, and tossing out the need for body language altogether. Use a special word that you both agree upon as a formal request for a status check on each other, and when that word is uttered, speak the truth about how you're feeling. No ambiguities, and no hard feelings. Many women use body language as a way of trying to communicate something that they don't want to say. Some use it as a passive-aggressive tool to dominate other people. When the person they're trying to communicate to doesn't respond to the body language, the female can become irritated or frustrated.
• Um... okay, I'm just going to lay this out there. Feel free to disagree or ignore at will. I'm really not a cynical person, but I know it's going to sound that way. I don't think she's telling you the truth. It sounds like she's chosen to give you a reason that's inarguable. How could you possibly debate a statement like "You have no nonverbal communication"? Well, you can't, which is precisely the point - there's no way for you to get traction on the issue. I vote that you call her bluff, so to speak. Say, "You're right, I'm sorry, let's get couples' counselling." Frame it as "The counselor will help me change." In your heart, know that the counselor will also help HER change, or at least be more honest with herself and with you. The bonus is that you can't lose this way. If she refuses to try counselling, then she's saying "No, this is over, I'm not even willing to try to work together on this." A solid answer is always better than uncertainty. If she does agree to try counselling, then maybe the two of you can work it out. I really wouldn't fixate on her statement about your lack of nonverbal communication, though. One thing that's hard for those with Asperger's to understand is that people rarely tell you the clear, unvarnished truth. A statement like "Living with you has confused my ability to read other people's cues, so I'm leaving you" should not be taken at face value.
• In addition, you are not the Bad Guy in this situation (as everyone else has pointed out). Your urge to take her action item and run with it, even to the extent of asking people online for assistance with this project, is both commendable and a little bit heartbreaking. It certainly wouldn't hurt if you worked on your nonverbal communication skills. But for now, focus on the main issue (your overall marital stability) and my heartfelt best wishes to you both.
• the things I would say have been said very well by others here already, so I'll add a little bit to mechagrue's final point: work on developing your VERBAL communication skills! they are really more important, as they are direct and "real" (whatever) a statement of committment to communicating. I found for myself that working on my verbal communication skills inadvertently helped my nonverbal skills too. (but I am not Aspergers, I don't know to what extent that may matter here) good luck!
• I'm just wondering how this fits into the context of the other problems you refer to--which is not to say that you need to tell the internets the rest, but if these other problems have to do with communication in other ways, maybe this is something that needs to be addressed in its entirety. I'm not sure if I'm reading too much into this, but does she feel as if she has lost her ability read others because she hasn't had a lot of social interactions since getting married? Her saying what you have told us and her taking trips with groups of people seem like symptoms of her wanting more social interaction (as the monster of underpants seemed to be implying as well). How does that fit with what you want/are comfortable with socially? If you can afford it, these seem like things to work out with a therapist. I know that doesn't answer your question, which is lame-ola, but maybe it'll help?
• I also think that couple's therapy is probably a good idea. I'll add, though, that if you don't like or connect with the first therapist you try, don't give up. We can't like everyone we meet in day-to-day life, and the same holds true for therapists and counselors.
• Yeah, if the therapist has a tan line where his/her wedding band used to be, get out of there!
• Asperger's Syndrome Thought a link might help in case there's someone not sure what it is. I have to put in a mildly dissenting note. Do you have many friends yourself? The reason I ask is, I know from my own experience that it is real easy to destroy an intimate relationship by putting to much emphasis on it. A relationship can become all important if you don't have the normal support structure of other friends. This puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the other person in the relationship. A lot more pressure then would normally be placed. If you have little or no outside interest other then her, and I know how difficult it can be to have outside interests in a small town, that puts a lot of pressure on her. Enough pressure that it might drive her away. I agree that counseling is good, but perhaps you should consider solo counseling for yourself?
• Counseling for all, seriously. But go with the attitude that you're going to *work* on yourself (and your relationship), not that you think the couselor is a quack that you can trick. Because you can.
• Make sure the counsellor is a *good* one who has some kind of experience with this type of situation. You may need to go out of town for this(?). She says that she finds herself struggling and having doubts with how to interpret people, which she hasn't had to do before. This sounds odd to me. Is it even possible lose non-communicative skills once you have them? Isn't it like riding a bicycle?
• It's good you and she are now talking about whatever's been going on, rolypolyman. From your account of what she says, she appears to think she's experienced a change in the way she's now able to relate to other people. Has she recently had or is she considering having a physical exam? Thinking in particular of possible changes with her eyesight and/or hearing, be useful to know if something physical has changed with her. Can't think being around someone with Asperger's would diminish her former methods of relating to other folk and picking up cues from them, no more than her speaking Spanish or Lithuanian for 7 or 8 years would make her forget how to speak English. Think there has to be more going on here. Whether this is a predominantly physical or psychological problem doesn't seem too clear at present. HOwever, since you are both talking, continuing to do so will hopefully make the situation clearer to you both. Take everything everyone says in this thread with several grains of salt -- we would like to help but when not all the facts are clear one can so easily mistake or mistate things, making matters worse. Wish you the best, anyhow.
• Damn I love MonkeyFilter. Er - what everyone else said - especially mechagrue. You guys are great. Hope it works out. Marital problems suck. Sorry I cant offer more direct help - my simain troop-mates have said more than I could come up with on my own. G'luck.
• Can't think being around someone with Asperger's would diminish her former methods of relating to other folk and picking up cues from them Yeah, you'd think the opposite: that she would watch him ever-more-carefully to pick up on the most subtle cues, and hoping to derive some understanding from them. People who are sensitive to others will "turn up the volume" (so to speak) around those who are putting out very low signals.
• I am the last person you should listen to, my only marriage ended dismally and I am still trying to figure how to pick up the pieces or if I should just toss what's left into the ocean. But ya know what, some people just like to blame others and refuse to take responsibility for their own shit. No matter what people tell you, you might just be right. Be very wary of couple's therapy. In couple's therapy you can go in and say that 4 + 4 = 8. Your wife can say that no, 4 + 4 = 6. The therapist will agree with your wife if that you are a non-listening, non-empathetic pig if you don't agree that 4 + 4 = 6 and that you need anger management training. The therapist will consider it a good day if you leave there saying that maybe 4 + 4 = 7. Your wife will still be pissed off that you don't see that 4 + 4 = 6. And she will no longer be able to trust you. Everything you say can and will be held against you. I have no solutions and I wish it were all very different and I feel very badly for you. I wish you and yours all the best, and I hope your situation ends up 10000 x better than mine. I probably shouldn't click post, and again, I am very sorry.
• MonkeyFlitter is a real cynic with a bit of a sour attitude. May even be justified, but every situation is different. Just a note: I think MOST women wish they had more communication with their husbands--verbal and/or non. So talk to her. Take her out to dinner and make it really special--a date, flowers, the whole schmeal. Sure it's corny, but I defy anyone, even you Goth Chicks to deny that in on little teeeny corner of your black hearts, you wouldn't be thrilled. A special status check word would be helpful. Just talking about the idea of counseling might open some doors, and if she's interested--go for it. I'm skeptical about telling her to go off and find herself a little group to join. I think you BOTH ought to go and find something. Surely there's a theater group, photography club, historical society, book club, gardening club, hiking club, dog pound that needs walkers, soup kitchen, bible study, exercise class, SOMETHING that you two can do together. Hell, if the only group in town is quilting--GO QUILT together. You'll get a chance to interact with other people, and she'll get a chance to interact, and you'll both get a chance to see each other interact. Try various things--stuff that you wouldn't EVER try. Agree that you'll try something that she picks out for six weeks--even if you're not really that thrilled, and she'll try something you like for six weeks--but you both do it for at least six weeks. If it doesn't help, well, hey, you can always try something else. I'm not even going to hazard a guess as to what her intentions are. Shoot, we're getting this filtered second hand thru the husband, guys--let's give the gal the benefit of the doubt--at least she's still talking. With the vast majority of women, if they're still talking, there's still hope. Oh, and you are NOT the bad guy. You're a guy with Asperger's. Most importantly, you're a guy that loves his wife and is going to work on his communication skills. Every marriage needs one of those.
• I am not going to dispute anything that BlueHorse said. I will note that therapy costs about $100 per week. You may just wish to agree to give your wife $100 per week to spend any way she pleases. Clothes, makeup, lovers, acid, guns, .... I honestly don't believe there have been any studies comparing the efficacy of couples therapy with just letting the women buy whatever shit she wants.
• MonkeyFlitter, I think we've found the source of your problem.
• rolypolyman: You're a good guy. It'll all get sorted. I don't have a lot to say outside of what Ralph and mechagrue said, they covered it pretty well. I'm a big fan of therapy (not to go into my BS too much, but I'm pretty convinced that starting therapy toward the end of 2004 saved my life). MonkeyFlitter: It's really unfortunate that you had such a crap experience with it, and I'm so sorry that your relationship didn't work out (my marriage ended a couple of years ago, and I was pretty fucked up for a long time). It's possible that you had a shit therapist (there are jackasses in every profession), or that one or both of you (or the relationship) wasn't a good candidate for therapy. At any rate, divorce is a bad situation in which to find yourself, and I wish you all the best. But (back to rolypolyman now) you and your wife might be able to resolve a lot of this through therapy... it couldn't hurt to try, at least. Don't be afraid of switching therapists until you find one with whom you both connect.
• I don't believe for a moment that living with someone who has Asperger's could affect your own ability to read non-verbal signs. Perhaps it might make you pay more conscious attention to them than before, leading you to discover that as a matter of fact, you misread people yourself from time to time. But that would be personal growth of a (slightly painful) kind.
• What can I say that hasn't already been said? The situation sucks, and it's not necessarily anyone's fault. I would also recommend couple/ family therapy, but make sure the therapist is accredited, and that (s)he is clued into the problems associated with Asperger syndrome.
• i wish you the best, rolypolyman. i hope you find a good way forward with this. i'd emphasize the importance of keeping the lines of communcation open. maybe have an occasional "state of the union" with your wife. mrs roryk and i do this: it can occasionally be painful to realize what a jerk i've been, but it reduces the frequency with which i repeat blunders by sensitizing me to things that would otherwise not occur to me. we don't have a schedule - either one of us can ask for a sit-down when it seems necessary. i guess we average once every three months. also, why not read up on nonverbal communication? i think desmond morris (peoplewatching, the naked ape, the human zoo) is a good place to start.
• I've nothing to add beyond fourthing or fifthing or whatever the recommendation for couples' counseling, but I just wanted to wish you well and to say thank you for (a) having the guts and (b) trusting enough in our opinions to come out and ask such a question. I for one take it as a compliment. The fact that you're discussing it bodes well for you, for what it's worth.
• Experiencing similar difficulties, one approached non-verbal communication from a research perspective, and Roryk, agreed, Desmond Morris provides insights. One has also acquired and read a great many books on the subject of 'body language' and has learned that Body language differs amid disparate social groups even within the same country. (England, for instance). There is also much written about the subtle nuances of body language that exist within relationships. Quite apart from the fascination of the subject, one has learned a great deal and that has been of immense assistance in a great many work related, and social situations. One remains, unfortunately, uncomfortable with the use of "I" and "me" in written communication. This is a 'work in progress' .. ;P
• jereboam, one's skills are sound with the English language. And if one wants to say one, one's perfectly fine. in the hive of the self many cells and one can do the talking for everyone else
• There are several good suggestions in this thread. I'll just throw in that perhaps a quick call to your doctor can help you find a support group for people with Aspberger's, and perhaps there you'll find others just like you with marital difficulties and tips on solving them. Your wife may need to attend something like this as well.