June 20, 2006

Evangelical evolution. "The mellowing of evangelical Christianity may well be the big American religious story of this decade."
posted by HawthorneWingo 18 years ago
  • The mellowing of .. you gotta be kidding me. There's no mellowing, it's crazier than ever.
  • Well, I don't know. I've read from more than one source that it's quite common for a fervent conservative minority to become extremely vocal and active just as a critical mass is reached among the more tolerant and liberal majority. An example could perhaps be seen in the opposition in southern states to the 1960's civil rights movement.
  • When they realize that you can have ethics without some father figure in the sky who is going to smite you if you do wrong watching over their shoulders, then they will have matured and joined the ranks of the mellow. Not before.
  • smite da heathens for Jesus, in his divine mercy! --->batshit insane<--- insane fervent devout laid-back mellow
  • I'm with Chyren on this one. I don't even have to read the article to know it's complete bullshit. Evangelicals mellowing...yeah, like Ann Coulter is mellowing.
  • I don't even have to read the article to know it's complete bullshit. /mind boggles
  • This isn't really about anyone mellowing: it's about how Baptist bloggers, by focusing on scandals attached to members of the church establishment, and providing a voice for those outside said establishment, have secured the election of a non-crony and somewhat less rabidly conservative candidate.
  • Fire truck baptism. Brought to you by the estimable missustool. Oh, you wacky Baptists.
  • Yeah, this is something of which it's truthiness I most seriously doubt. Evangelicals take extremes as a point of faith, there techncially is no mellowing, although you could argue that cross-burnings are down or something like that. That doesn't mean there's less of a "movement" or other veiled reference to feces.
  • There's been a quiet war going on in the SBC since, oh, about 1991. Baptists are very good about keeping their mouths shut to the public out of a desire for solidarity, but there has been quite a bit of quiet dissent going on. I've heard it with my own ears. Basically there was an extremist good ol' boy takeover of the SBC around '91, and those with sense in their heads fought the good fight, but they lost big. They didn't see it coming, because they honestly didn't expect a dirty fight, the poor naive bastards. I remember talking to Southern Baptist pastors in the mid-to-late 90's, and they all admitted that they had stopped attending the annual convention, because "What's the point?" Baylor University saw the writing on the wall and cut all ties with the SBC, even though it was to their financial detriment to do so. They celebrated the decision with a school dance. It's not at all surprising that the "moderates" within would be quietly fighting back. But I'm damned skeptical about how much is going to be changed.
  • But, monsignor MCT, wouldn't your example be a case of a group which left an Evangelical organization? Technically, the Evangelicals haven't "mellowed" as much as lost support? I say this because I have a sad an overwhelming desire to be right at all times.
  • Baylor left, yes, but what I'm saying is there are those still fighting within the SBC for change and have not yet abandoned it. Many of the more level-headed ministers stopped attending for a while, but some stayed and fought, and I suppose it's possible they're making some headway now. But again, I'm skeptical. And bear in mind that a "moderate" Southern Baptist is usually very much a social conservative in mainstream America. And a socially conservative American, compared to the rest of the civilized world...
  • Is still on the far Right.
  • I agree with what mct is trying to say, and will add my .02 (as always ;) ) I was raised in a moderate-to-liberal Southern Baptist church. Our pastor (or Preacher, as we called him) was the first in the area to remove "obey" from the marriage ceremony (in the 30s -- he was in his 90s by the time I attended church there) and vocally supported the Civil Rights movement (in Texas, when lots of white ministers didn't). He knew Latin, Hebrew, and Biblical Greek, and would talk to us in his sermons about how different translations created different shades of meaning. As a traditional Baptist, he would give us several possible meanings and then stress to us that it was up to us to decide for ourselves. My second pastor, who had a Ph.D. in religion, believed the same thing. Neither of these ministers would define themselves in any way as a fundamentalist, neither did they believe in the literal truth of the Bible. Traditional Baptists are not fundamentalists. The problem is that, as mct said, the fundamentalists took over the SBC in the early 90s. Traditional Southern Baptists (including my pastor) fought this tooth and nail, but lost. When I was growing up, being a member of the SBC meant that you were not at fundamentalist. As my grandparents said, when you joined an SBC church, you knew that you were joining a church that 1) did not speak in tounges 2) did not believe in the Bible literally (or if they did, they did not force you to believe that). Why does it matter that the fundies took over? Traditional Southern Baptist theology (such as it is) holds in the concept of the "priesthood of all believers." This means that every Christian should be able to study the Bible and make up her own mind about what it means. Beyond the "big ideas" like the divinity of Christ and the Trinity, you can believe what you want. Was the earth created in 7 days? Was Mary a perpetual virgin? What about evolution? Because these ideas are outside of the "main idea," you get to make up your own mind and still be part of the club. Fundamentalist Baptists, however, believe that everyone must hold with the literal truth of the Bible... the whole seven days, no evolution, gay people are bad thing. This is a huge theological gap, and is part of why the Traditional Baptists and the fundamentalists don't agree on much. We also need to avoid erasing the difference between "Evangelical" and "Fundamentalist." They're different. You can be an evangelical fundamentalist, but you can also be a non-evangelical fundy (see: fundamentalist Catholics and fundamentalist Muslims), and you can be evangelical without being a fundy. Evangelical religions, such as Baptists, just mean that one of the duties of being a member of the religion is to "spread the word." This means anything from sponsoring or becoming missionaries, knocking on your neighbors' doors, passing out flyers, or just telling people about your religious viewpoint when they ask you (and shutting up otherwise). Traditional Baptists used to be in the mainstream. Some were more conservative, some were more liberal, but there was more room for more points of view. The fundamentalists used to be the (I won't say lunatic, but) extremist fringe. Somehow they took over, and managed to make people forget the large group of non-fundamentalists. Lots of non-fundies, myself included, have left the Baptist church, and the church is starting to notice. The people who don't want to leave, and the people who want to be more inclusive, are starting to fight the fundies, and I hope they win.
  • Woo-- that was long. I hope it doesn't sound grouchy :)
  • Basically there was an extremist good ol' boy takeover of the SBC around '91, and those with sense in their heads fought the good fight, but they lost big. They didn't see it coming, because they honestly didn't expect a dirty fight, the poor naive bastards. I remember talking to Southern Baptist pastors in the mid-to-late 90's, and they all admitted that they had stopped attending the annual convention, because "What's the point?" So, basically the same thing that happened in the US Federal government. meredithea's preacher was teh kewl.
  • He was! He'd give you hellfire and brimstone if he thought you deserved it, but he'd also give kids gum if you walked up to him in the middle of the sermon.
  • Is still on the far Right. Now you know why I have a passport. Just in case.
  • You people disappoint me. All these posts and no one has made a joke that it isn't evangelical evolution but evangelical intelligent design. For shame moneys... For shame...
  • Thanks for that, meredithea. IANAB, but I say yay for the non-fundamentalist-socially conservative-but-not-as-socially-conservative-as-the-really-socially-conservative-Baptists Baptists!
  • Whenever I think of Baptists, I remember singing with my college choir in this huge Baptist church where they had one of those big sunken vat/tank things for full-immersion baptisms. There wasn't enough space in the choir loft for us, so some of us had to sit and stand on the lid of this tank. Every time we stood up, the lid would wobble and shake. We kept expecting Mendelssohn's "St. Paul" to turn into Handel's "Water Music." Evangevolution? Evolangelist? Evongelevation?
  • *applauds, tips server*
  • My gurus maintain that people get the religion they deserve. I hope they deserve better.
  • If meridithea hadn't pointed out that "fundamentalist" and "evangelical" are not the same thing, I would have. I would also add "charismatic" to that list (something people often confuse with fundamentalism, but which within xianity is often in direct opposition to fundamentalism), and then add that none of the three is necessarily synonymous with "protestant." (Charismatics: the ones most likely to engage in outbursts "as the spirit moves them" during services. Could be anything from speaking in tongues to uncontrollable laughter to rolling in the aisles. Generally fundamentalists do not like this.) There are lots of Protestants who are not evangelical, fundamentalist, or charismatic, as well. And "born again" can mean almost anything... depending on who's using it. Most often it means some sort of conversion, but occasionally evangelicals use it as a synonym for "evangelical." However, plenty of fundamentalists and charismatics are also evangelical, and plenty of evangelicals are neither. Individual Catholics may be fundamentalist or charismatic, but not usually evangelical. Etc. A lot of people use these terms interchangeably ("charismatic" less often, because it isn't as well-known) and say "evangelical" when they mean "christian" or "fundamentalist." (I really, really dislike fundamentalists, and I dislike being preached to, but I have found that most Xians I know, even evangelical ones, are nice people, and that it's always a mistake to assume that any Xian is either evangelical or fundamentalist... they just as easily may not be. There are lots of Xians who just try to go to church and be nice people.)
  • Thanks, verbminx! I should have included charismatic in my definition of terms :) My ex-church was terrified of becoming charismatic, and in fact had a few "charismatic splits" where that faction would split off into being its own church. I'm not against charismatics per se, but I'm just not much of a joiner. I don't even like it at concerts where the singer wants the audience to "Put your hands up in the air, and wave 'em like you just don't care!" or "Say hooooo! Say ho! ho!" Um... no. I guess it all feels too much like a "pep rally" at high school, and I'm just not that peppy.
  • The First Baptist Church dismissed Mary Lambert on August 9 with a letter explaining that the church had adopted an interpretation that prohibits women from teaching men. She had taught there for 54 years. The letter quoted the first epistle to Timothy: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
  • meredithea: No, the problem is that you DO care. You care too much. *sniff*
  • Couldn't they have kept her on to teach girls only? I'm wondering if there were some politics involved there.
  • In a statement, the board said other issues were behind Lambert's dismissal, but it did not say what they were.
  • "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." Paul did not know the joy of being ordered by a woman to deliver a right good boning, then. /had a great weekend, TMI
  • On the contrary, NEI.
  • Hey - I've "laid" lotsa times. You don't know her. She lives in Canada.
  • Oh, that wacky misogynist Paul! What'll he say next, LOL!
  • "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." The funniest part of all of this is that pretty much all of Paul's woman-bashing scribblings have been determined to be forgeries. LOL @ stpd xns.
  • Do you have a reference for that info, nunia? I've got some biblical literalist friends I'd like to infuriate. :)
  • There's a great book called The Lost Christianities that goes into it (great book), and another I have around here that I can't find. Here, it states that ...most liberal theologians have concluded that many of the writings attributed to Paul and Peter were in fact written by anonymous authors, often long after Paul and Peter died... I'm sure there are many other sources out there to substantiate this.
  • *tents fingers* Eeeexcellent.
  • Last year the Fairfield Christian Church in Lancaster, Ohio, became a regular stop for journalists covering trends in Christian right politics. In 2004 its pastor, Russell Johnson... Wait, the Professor's not only alive, he's a preacher, too?