May 27, 2006

• as a matter of interest, how much would one normally pay for a bottle of "decent" californian wine in california? if buying at a liquor store or a supermarket, for example. by "decent" i mean drinkable, not the cheapest, sort of approaching the middle range. perhaps the sort of thing you'd serve to a significant other's in-laws at a regular dinner (an event where you're no longer trying to impress them but you're not ready to poison them).
• Considering that vinters in the States, Chile, Australia, even Canada area all capable of learning good techniques, even inventing their own -- and realising that geography tends to repeat itself (if not exactly), why should anyone assume that the new worlds can't make good wine? They have good soil, many places have more sun, maybe better conditions - unless European vinters have techniques they are keeping secret (which they don't - many have emmigrated), the only argument for why European wines would be better would be based on pure nationalism. Heck, they say that Kent is basically the same soil as Champagne, and that at this point, cheap English sparkling wine is better than equally cheap French champagne. A good wine is a good wine - if people actually cared about wine, they wouldn't care what country it was from. I've had excellent Canadian wines, and I've drunk Canadian wines which it would have been kinder to use as a paint solvent. Our industry is small and may never be able to compete as much as the larger regions, but still has its good as well as its bad. It's interesting that they mention Yellow Tail. When I first moved to the US (Connecticut), I couldn't find the cheap but drinkable brands of wines I'd been relying on in Ontario (despite the fact that Ontario is the closest wine-region, there were no Canadian wines sold in the local shops). Yellow Tail was recommended by the local good shop. I've never been amazed by it, but I've always found it nice and drinkable, which is more than I can say for other brands in its price range. It has a reliability factor, which something I really look for in cheap wines (the only ones I buy usually - all my better experience has been at parents', university events, etc).
• jb you bring up many good points there. The most important factor about a good wine is - do you personally like it? Regardless of the region, year or type. I tend to drink more Australian wines than any other, mainly because I know the brands more (and because my stepmum lives in the Riverland and constantly tells me to "drink more wine" to support the local community - like I need encouragement). Although I've found a number of good ones from Chile and South Africa too. One thing I will say for Australian wines is that the cheaper ones are usually consistent in taste and quality. And I drank some French wine the other day - which was nothing short of quite horrific. As for Japanese wines - the widespread brands are dreadful! They are made to "Japanese taste" which makes them little better than grape juice with some rotgut alcohol factor added in. There are some interesting fruit wines (blueberry, apple and so on) which are available from small regions in (usually) Yamanashi. While Yellowtail is well known, other good choices are Wolf Blass - even the Red label/Eaglehawk series is decent, and of course that old standard Jacobs Creek. One particular favourite of mine (but tricky to find outside the country) is the Brown Brothers Tarrango. Yum! Also I rarely drink white wines as I find them too sweet, so all my opinions pertain to reds.
• oh btw polychrome neat post (^^)
• on the subject of the rematch; i'm honestly amazed anyone is bothering to rate 30-year-old reds. as far as i'm aware, there's little or no improvement in quality after the 15th year, even with the heaviest red grapes. in some cases, there's a marked decrease in quality. > The most important factor about a good wine is - do you personally like it? for me, there's also price. and in general there's a price:quality trade-off all over the world. i think a big part of my enjoyment of wine is in finding good quality but affordable produce. i've found wolf blass to be very reliable, though it can be on the expensive side in ireland. i tried yellow tail for the first time on a recent visit to the u.s. and liked it. a little rough around the edges, but the price was excellent. my question about californian wine prices is based on my experience of them being very high. however, i've only bought californian wine in restaurants in the u.s. with the exception of paul masson (yuck) and ernst & julio gallo (varied), i don't see any affordable californian wines in europe. this isn't just import duty, as i do find good deals on chilean, argentinean, south african, new zealandish, and australian wines.
• I've had better luck with Australian, Spanish and Chilean wines than with American, and I can't find a French wine in my price range here (Ohio) so I've never tried them. The Ohio and Texas wines I've tried (trying to "drink locally!") have been dreadful and expensive, always a bad combination.
• roryk, that is NOT true with Bordeaux which can age well, in some cases, for as much as 50 years, and generally needs 15-20 to even start showing its promise. unfortunately I have had very little personal experience of this (a VERY nice 1985 Chateau Pavie at the pop-in-law's) but I would be quite eager to try even a tiny sip of say, a 1959 Chateau Latour (ha, like who wouldn't?) Michael Broadbent is sort of the definative modern master on Bordeaux (and vintage wines in general, and a great read!), and Thomas Jefferson keep copious notes on his wine purchases and tastings over the years, for a historical perspective... If anyone knows of a good biography on Jefferson that includes coverage of his visits to Europe/wine buying/exerpts from his tasting notes, I would love to hear about it. mr. medusa is quite a wine enthusiast and I am becoming one myself. I have recently gotten to the point where we both realized that I have quite a good palette (much better than my husbands) and that has made me even more interested in getting into this whole wine thing. France v. California is silly, as has been pointed out, there are many places in the world with great climate, soil etc., that produce some awesome wines. I am a big fan of some Chilean reds, for instance (the Montes Alpha has been a hit for several years running) If you like it, its good, drink what you enjoy. Price and nation of origin are no guarantee of anything, except the price. and uh, the country to origin! /hoists wine glass!
• polychrome nice sidebar title by the way :)
• I've had some great Chilean reds Medusa, and they tend to be very reasonably priced. Having just moved to South Australia, I find myself living very close to several wine areas and having a blast. Though I am going to miss the Willamette pinots that I got seriously addicted to while in the US. :(

• roryk, that is NOT true with Bordeaux which can age well, in some cases, for as much as 50 years, and generally needs 15-20 to even start showing its promise.

  i think what you're saying is true for exceptionally good bordeaux years (e.g. recently 2000), but even in those cases (hah!) the promise is noticeable the first 1 - 5 years. i spoke with some people more knowledgeable than i about this. according to them, the 15 years is a rule of thumb; a really good bordeaux can continue to develop for 50 years, but most of its improvement will be in the first 20. conversely, wine from an average year may start to deteriorate around year 10. this is why we're encouraged to empty our cellars of the mid-1990s stuff now. if i had a cellar, i'd engage wholeheartedly in this endeavour. bear in mind that a lot of the "improvement" in 20+ year-old wines and champagnes is an appreciation in their monetary value reflecting increased scarcity as bottles from that vintage are consumed. my favourite chilean red for many years = casillero del diablo
• I find myself living very close to several wine areas and having a blast. Oddly enough, living in the Niagara Region, I'm surrounded by what, 200 wineries? Varying quality, a lot having been started by hobbyists from Toronto who are now getting bored and selling out... But the Ontario wines are often the most expensive. As a result, local demand is somewhat small. When the local stuff costs the same as the stuff from France, and is more expensive than what's on the shelf from Australia or Chile, the local wine becomes a special occasion thing, or gifts to people from away. Which is a shame, really, but if I'm going to pay the same for the local stuff (again, of varying quality) as I would a decent Bordeaux, yeah. No contest.
• (And to enable assist my fellow monkeys with their Niagara wine selection, I'd highly recommend anything by the folks at Malivoire -- great stuff, and they throw a lavish open house each year with terrific little nibblies, although they'll never hand out the Arctic Char again like they did that one time. This mom and pop operation is also really good, as is this guy, even though his mom doesn't conduct taste tests in their kitchen any more. Of the bigger operations, I've spent far too much time with my buddy Hank and his Baco, as well as Konzelmann's Pinot Noir. Yuh-may!)
• Polychrome you've just moved to South Australia? The best bit about it is the wine (and the beer). Go crazy!
• Capt R - Have wines gone up in price? When I was last in Toronto, I remember some nice Iniskillons for about $9-12 which seems cheapish/reasonable. Granted, I was always going for the Hungarian Bull's Blood for $6-8 (could strip a car, delicious stuff that actually improved from being left open in a cupboard for 6 months), but I had no money. There were some really cheap Canadian wines (Andres wine stores had some) but when buying for people like my inlaws, who had some taste, I tended towards the Iniskillon on the grounds I had never had a bad one. That said, I've just realised how much cheaper wine is here in Britain - I'm getting nice but not spectatcular wine for the equivalent of $6-8 CND, but that was hard in Toronto. But I would never complain about the LCBO - wine and liquor both were cheaper in Toronto than in Connecticut, and the private stores had almost no selection.
• Niagara wines are now starting around fifteen, and moving up pretty quickly. Which is allright for gifts and entertaining, but too pricey for when it's just lil' ol' me.
• Ooh, I like casillero del diablo :)
• Coopers green = most excellent beer. But what is it with the Farmer's Union Iced Coffee? Stores near the state border telling me it's the last chance to buy an iced coffee?!? *scratches head*
• Oh, and I had a chance to try some wines from the Finger Lakes region at a wine tasting in DC. Very tasty sparklings.
• There are some really nice local wines here in NY, but the quality does vary. The price is usually right. But for the same price I get Yellow Tail, which I walway KNOW is going to be pleasant, even if it's a variety I haven't tried.

• Heck, they say that Kent is basically the same soil as Champagne, and that at this point, cheap English sparkling wine is better than equally cheap French champagne.

  An English sparkling wine has beaten off competitors from across the globe to be named the world's best in an international competition. The Nyetimber Classic Cuvee 1998, made in West Sussex, was crowned the best traditionally-made sparkling wine. from sky news
• If you're looking for value for your dollar it's hard to beat Mad Dog 20/20.