April 04, 2006

• Their crimes me want to retch.
• Blah blah blah youthful indiscretion blah blah blah otherwise a really good kid blah blah blah momentary lapse in judgement blah blah blah showed responsibility and remorse blah blah blah let's all move on and put this behind us blah blah blah. I think that about covers it.
• Except for that unfortunately named "Judge O'Toole".
• Didn't notice that. I thought this was unfortunate: "trying every way he can to rectify the situation." Also please to note: "The letter said Bennett was an honor student and active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who plans to go on a mission in September. 'A felony conviction for assault will make his desire to complete his mission impossible,' they wrote."
• This boy's gonna be president of the united states someday.
• Now, wait a few. Let the courts handle it. They should have the opportunity to assess the proper, just punishment for these crimes. And when they don't, a few fathers ought to go see these two young fellows for a brief but informative meeting. "A felony conviction for assault will make his desire to complete his mission impossible,' they wrote." So would a wee hospital stay. Shame, that.
• Sometimes vigilante justice works better than that other kind.
• To the apemobile!
• Umm, doesn't the story say that the vitims were clothed? So, doesn't that mean that the objects weren't inserted, the boys were just getting goosed, albeit in an extreme way? I'm not saying that's excusable behavior, but it is far less offensive than raping someone with a broomstick.
• Good Lord. This makes you wonder what kind of sterling individual the kids' parents are. You learn this stuff somewhere. (Not to excuse them, but still... nothing happens in a vaccuum)
• anybody ever shit splinters?
• I understand the detractions of vigilantism. But so often, you see these sorts of crimes go completely unpunished, especially when the targets are children. And I think what I'd want to do - what I'd be sorely tempted to do - if my sons were numbered amongst the victims. I am continually amazed at the capacity of parents to have their children victimized and either say nothing or, even more repugnantly, accept money to keep their gutless, worthless traps shut. I've always wondered what those parents spend that money on, those greenbacks paid on the blood and fear and pain of their children.
• ...and if you think nothing happens in a vacuum, well...
• Witnesses told police that the junior counselors lined up the youngsters, told them to bend over and "broomsticked" them. The boys told police "broomsticking" was done alternately with a broom, a cane, a mop handle and a heavy-duty flashlight while they were clothed. RalphTheDog, you're right. I read this from the second-linked article: "The younger Bennett confessed to police that he and Wheeler sodomized the 11- to 14-year-old boys with broomsticks and flashlights in at least 40 incidents, court documents show. " I'll ask that this be eeked, because there's a hell of a difference, even if this plea deal is wrong. My apologies, that's two different stories there. Although this doesn't help differentiate them: "The boys have had trouble going to the bathroom, sleep with clothes on, are afraid at night, and have undergone sexual-assault counseling, parents said."
• Damn, you ruined my orgasm.
• Sorry. Here, have a quidnunc corpse.
• Well, doing this in the context of them having their clothes *on* doesn't make a whole goddamn lot of sense, in my book. I think it's a load of shit to cover the fact that they're letting these little jagoffs off the hook. And that's enough for me for today.
• Outrage appreciated Fes. What's amazing to me is that choking a child til they pass out and even *simulated* anal rape is considered some sort of acceptable behavior in any sense at all. And can't you just feel that civil suit coming like a runaway freight down the mountain?
• What Fes said, several times.
• "The letter said Bennett was an honor student and active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who plans to go on a mission in September" Yeah! That's just what's needed for kindling the religious zeal on young minds; some "broomsticking" and they will grow up to be sane, just, god-fearing and righteous men! Shame. Humilliation. The law of the stronger. And if some whistleblower dares to break the silence, hey, my dad knows this judge... But hey, who can blame those sick bastards? Their parents are doing the same to so many countries right now...
• I wonder if the term "clothed" means trousers pulled all the way up? You would think so, but people's definitions might conceivably vary. And exactly what ways is he trying to rectify the situation? And isn't "rectify" a poor choice of words at best? Prison would be a good place to go on a mission. Assault in that region of the body is sexual assault, whether it turn the perpetrator or or not and regardless of penetration. Sick fucks.
• One of the parents of the boys said that they had 'objects inserted into their butts,' which I don't think is possible while fully clothed. But then, I'm not a sadistic fuck with an overactive imagination.
• They aren't even up to the level of sick fucks! I, sir, know sick fucks, and they are definitely not sick fucks! They are lower than snake shit. That's a whole different scale.
• An appropriate user name for the first part of the above comment, there, Underpants. I agree about the act being a violation regardless of pantstitude, but had the boys been raped by sticks and flashlights they obviously would have been injured physically as well as mentally. Sick fucks versus sicker fucks.
• Hard to believe we are actually making progress on this fucking planet, eh? I know, from down here it looks like the loonies are running the asylum, but wind the clock back a few generations and I can assure you, you'll be begging to be bunted in the backside with the blunt end of a maglite with your shorts on, and no mistake!
• Chy, the motherfucking snakes are shitting at 30,000 feet. That's not so low.
• /wipes snakeshit off head I have had enough of these motherfuckin snakes.
• I'm sure if you ram hard enough, a broomstick can push into just about anything - clothing or not. Kinda reminded me of what happened to Abdner Louima, although his clothing was "dropped below his knees."
• No, if you're going to sodomise someone with a blunt object properly, you remove the pants. No one wants to hurt their wrist straining to punch thru denim.
• Damn Chy, you never fail to make me laugh at those times I would never imagine... Now pass some some snakeshit!
• He poked them with a mop, poked them with a cane, and poked them with a broom, and he may go to prison for it; but if he had beat them with a mop, beat them with a cane, and beat them with a broom, it would have been perfectly legal. But only if he stuck them on the bottom. Anyplace else, and it would have been illegal again. Strange world we live in.
• 
• I'm sure we all recall this.
• The boys told police "broomsticking" was done alternately with a broom, a cane, a mop handle and a heavy-duty flashlight while they were clothed. That initially read to me like only the flashlight happened clothed, the rest unclothed.
• Y’know, you can always tell the real bastards, because they always go after your cornhole. Some people might punch you in the face or kick you or something, yell at you - whatever, but the real megalomaniacs and psychopaths? Right into the keyster.
• Their sentence is ... 1000 Years Of Pain.
• wow...is there really any need to determine the difference between assault and sexual assault here? (unless it would lead to a longer sentence for these fuckheads). Is anyone really trying to dismiss these actions merely by denying that they were sexual?? abuse is abuse, the victims are most certainly children, more so children under the supervision and responsibility of adults to whom they have been trusted by their families. give me a go at them, I'll redefine the term 'justice'
• If the prosecutor is sympathic with Bennett & Wheeler, I'm not sure we'll ever get details, but it occurs to me that "clothed" could mean "with underwear on." It could also mean that they had on light, cotton shorts over underwear. If it was done through denim, it's bad enough, but lighter clothing would make it more threatening and uncomfortable - maybe even very painful. As someone on MetaFilter said, rape isn't about sex, it's about violence (though I really think it's about power.) I think this was rape, in that sense, even if there was no real penetration. And "hazing" is about power. I guess the prosecutors found a dividing line between the two, even though it seems to me that the area attacked has to make a difference. So sad that kids who had been tagged as future leaders went through that. What do you supppose they learned from it?
• For those entrepreneurs out there brooming.net and brooming.org are still available
• Well, I don't know these guys, and am on the other side of the planet, so I can't get in my utility truck with them strung to the back and go for a little ride or anything. Best I got is mockery.
• ironically, aren't we rooting for them to be sent to prison where exactly the same thing would be done to them, albeit with body parts and unclothed...
• Not so much ironic as it is poetic, eeq. Let all justice be poetic! ... bees?
• As a native of that festering place, all I can say is move along, just another Mormon doing his job of dispensing healthy and wholesome "discipline" to the wayward unwashed. Yes, I do have a special disgust for the well-protected pervs in the church. And they are well-protected. Don't look for much in the way of punishment here.
• Oh, and the disparity between the different press coverages regarding the victims being clothed is pretty much par for the bipolar relationship the press there has to the LDS and politicos. Image is everything.
• Mord: great comment that put it all into perspective. We're getting feircely upset at something that is equivalent to bra snapping in other cultures. hmmm...
• But they're guilty of two crimes: poking kids with sticks and being the offspring of Republicans.
• I don't know about that, A) I'd be mighty pissed and file charges for assault . In THIS culture you don't pull that shit. B) Not speaking from experience, but I suspect kancho and a broom handle or maglite are quite different things. Nobody's gonna perforate your intestine their fingers.... well... nobody except Chuck Norris or Kakashi
• or the Werzog... and he'd do it with your own pinky.
• You know, they're 18, molesting 14 year old boys. Throw the damn book at them. It would be one thing if these kids were equals, but at 18 and 19, you're an adult, and the difference in size between a 14 year old and an 18 year old can be pretty substantial. Damn, now you made me think about this. Bastards ought to be ripped into itty bitty little pieces and buried alive before they can turn into CEOs and raid the corporate pension fund.
• This boy's gonna be president of the united states someday. Broomstick & Choker in '32!
• This story is making some pretty big waves here in Arizona; people are pissed off about this. This news actually broke about a month ago about the plea deal. Dad isn't just a state senator, but the Senate president. He's been responsible for a lot of bad legislation, much of which put the state in a bad financial position. He'll probably win re-election, but it'd be nice to see him held to account on this; when you have a crime with dozens of victims, and the kid is basically off the hook, you can bet Dad stepped in on it.
• Future American government leaders practice getting screwed. Diplomats worldwide rejoice.
• The pattern continues - Catholic, Anglican. jesuit missionaries (yeah I know those catholics again), and now the Church of Latter Day Saints on a 'mission' helps to make the sentence lenient, aint it great when u got God to hide behind when u behave like primordial scum? At least you know you'll be forgiven - unlike the victims!
• LDS is the most ridiculous fucking religion ever created. Even more ridiculous than fucking Scientology. The baloney these numbskulls swallowed about the gold tablets & the Jews in America was fucking priceless.
• Let all justice be poetic! ...All prosy, dull society sinners who chatter and bleat and bore Are sent to hear sermons from mystical Germans who preach from ten 'til four... Dangit, Chimp, you got me started on the Gilbert and Sullivan! That'll be running through my head all day now!
• I hope these kids get away scot free. I mean, hell - if it's OK for these kids to sodomize others, we can get sodomy legitimized. Then it's only a hop, skip and a jump to gay marriage. Once the good people start seeing sodomy as a normal thing, the whole gay thing becomes a moot issue. Really, the bastards need to be gently reminded that grown-ups can't fuck with kids. Perhaps a nice sit-down with some of the affected parents would be helpful.
• But they're guilty of two crimes: poking kids with sticks and being the offspring of Republicans. They're not guilty of being the offspring of Republicans, but the obvious leniency of the sentence due to - well, what are the odds that the state Senate President stepped in? - is a particular trait of politics (particularly "local" politics). And Republicans are bad. And they have smelly butts and they like to smell poke sticks in their own butts. Butt Stick Pokers For Truth!
• Politics can be a part of this without the dad having stepped in. Your boss doesn't need to take you aside and tell you to be nice to his kids— You're going to do that without needing to be told. Same logic applies here. As a judge, you don't need the state Senate President to confront you in order to know that you future career path depends on how you treat the Senator's kid.
• Thanks, TUM!
• ...and for the record my last roommate would sing the score of the H.M.S. Pinafore to a nauseating degree. I lent him my computer for a while and when I got it back, guess what CD was in the drive? I laughed.
• LDS is the most ridiculous fucking religion ever created. Even more ridiculous than fucking Scientology. The baloney these numbskulls swallowed about the gold tablets & the Jews in America was fucking priceless. As a young lad growing up in South Dakota, there were these aggressive religious folks perusing the streets that did their darndest to convert you to their brand of christianity - - we always called them the "Holy Rollers." One night we were having fun with them, the typical teenage boy shenanigans, "I worship satan!" "Praise Beelzebub!" etc. etc. The particular holy roller that was doing his best to level with us finally gave up and proclaimed, "I don't care what religion you believe in - - no matter what god you worship, you will go to heaven... unless you are LDS, then you will go to hell no matter what!!" I never forgot that tasty tidbit...
• Wow. Sounds like he may have had an issue with them.
• Chyren: They are ALL rediculous. None more so than others. As soon as you start thinking that you are the favored people of the great sky-being, you turn into an asshole.
• And then people poke you with sticks.
• When is ladder day?
• Somewhere between Rembrandt's Day and Quonsar.
• None more so than others. I disagree. Some are way more ridiculous than others. Um, depending on the definition of ridiculous I suppose. "Your appearance is comical to me!" --Martin
• *begin chant* shoko... shoko... asahara shoko... shoko... shoko... asahara shoko...
• which one is that? Can you have multiple wives in it?
• Aum Shinrikyo multiple wives?? hmmm... dunno
• In 1995 the group was reported as having 9,000 members in Japan and as many as 40,000 worldwide. As of 2004, Aum Shinrikyo membership is estimated at 1,500 to 2,000 persons Note to Chyren: poison gas attacks and bad press can seriously disrupt your religion's bottom line.
• Well, lets start with what 'ridiculous' means: "Fitted to excite ridicule; absurd and laughable; unworthy of serious consideration" Now with what 'religion' means: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny or outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a god or of gods having power over their destiny, to whom obedience, service, and honor are due; the feeling or expression of human love, fear, or awe of some superhuman and overruling power, whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies, or by the conduct of life; a system of faith and worship So on the one hand, ridiculous is things that are unworthy of serious consideration, and on the other, religion is a belief in things that can not be shown to exist by rational consideration. I'd say the two are near synonymous. So, some religions tack on more ridiculous beliefs on top of the PRIME ridiculous belief, that men's destinies are controlled by supernatural powers that we believe in irrationally. And as for the Buddhists, well, if you believe in the living spirit of the Buddha influencing your life as a supernatural thing, yep... its a religion. On the other hand, if you just think that Buddha was a guy with a good idea for relieving human suffering, not so much. Same with Christ, although I'd have to consider each precept on whether or not it derives from a supernatural justfication.
• Ie., Buddha and Christ as historical and philosophical figures whose ideas are worthy of serious consideration vs. Buddha and Christ the carriers of divinely inspired truth and we should do what they say because God told them to tell us to do so.
• Yeah but c'mon wouldn't you agree that some religions are more ridiculous than others? For example - Lutherans. HA ha! Church on Sunday! Oh man, that's classic. *snif* Yes, well, you get the idea.
• Just to go further OT, it seems to me like most of the "religious" aspects of Buddhisms are carryovers of local folk traditions: particularly altars and the rituals to be used with them, etc. They seem to differ vastly between Buddhist cultures... TMK, a Thai Buddhist altar is pretty different from a Japanese Buddhist altar, and neither has much to do with anything you'll read in the early sutras. Similar to the rosary in Catholicism. As far as the main topic - I'm agape! aghast! Those jerks should be in jail, not "on mission" (what, teaching other kids to assrape their juniors with foreign objects?)
• verbminx: That's what we do, and that's why we are ascendant. The hell with wuss Buddhists. We have control of your doubts, and that is our strength.
• "most of the "religious" aspects of Buddhisms are carryovers of local folk traditions" There are so many different sects, variants and interpretations that it's not worth generalising.
• So is "on a mission" the new euph?
• Sure it is. Neenor neenor boo boo. But another way of putting it is that there are practical aspects and mystical aspects, and all but a few of the mystical aspects seem to have been tacked on, depending on the sect, and may also involve what are basically folk practices. (Or, "it's only a religion if you're worshipping something." And you need not, to be a Buddhist in a generalized sense, but many people do anyway, because of whatever given tradition.) On another note, I love Murakami's book about the Aum attack on the Tokyo Subway System in 1995.
• buddhism mind you nothing signifies
• Buddha is mind. or so I'm told
• ...it seems to me like most of the "religious" aspects of Buddhisms are carryovers of local folk traditions... Most Xian sects don't recognize the archaic ancestor worship, shamanic healing and burial rites in their own practices, either. Some Judeo-Christian dogma is hygeine based. Why? Because, well, religion is folk tradition. Furthermore, like Chyren said, you have to use the magic ruler when you compare apples to oranges. Recognize the different supernatural beliefs (or concepts of the supernatural) which exist in the history of the culture which you are so impartially observing and unshroud your own "invisible world" before making such pointless (save for, perhaps, insulting) blanket claims.
• Um, actually, I'm not Christian - I'm agnostic with Buddhist tendencies. I'm not really much interested in anyone's "supernatural beliefs": they're all pretty much equally silly to me, including the Judeo-Christian ones you mention. So, actually, I think you're being pretty presumptuous and insulting - with the assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about. I do. You don't have to agree, but neither do you have to get yr panties in a bunch about it. (That counts as banana-flinging.)
• No, see, wait, I'm still irritated. First of all, so it isn't pulled out of context and because I didn't choose the best words just now, "equally silly" does not necessarily mean "silly", just "no more or less silly than any other." Supernatural beliefs are by definition irrational, and therefore not really subject to rational interpretation or argument. I don't have to use anything when I compare anything - especially when I did not compare apples to oranges. Saying that I "have to use the magic ruler" is simply condescending, especially when I feel it is actually a matter of apples to apples, regardless of Chy's opinion or anyone else's. We're allowed to disagree with each other (hence the neenors). I didn't list any "religious" elements of Buddhism other than various altar setups, so there's hardly enough information there to give anyone a basis for refuting what I said - how exactly do you know which other elements I was referring to? Since for the main force of Japanese, Buddhism is the religion associated with funeral customs (and little else), most home altars have specifically memorial functions and relatively simple accessories (incense is very important). These are associated with the sects of Mahayana Buddhism that are popular in Japan; however, it's unusual for a Japanese person to be "religious" - most are involved with religion only as regards major life events, though there's still a lot of popular luck-related superstition, often tied to Shinto. So, home Buddhist altars are usually maintained mostly out of love and respect for dead family members. There are also customs related to grave visitation - when and how often it must be done, at minimum, and what you should do while you're there. I cannot find the page where I read altar information by-and-for Thai-American Buddhists (presumably Theravada), but it was quite different and involved much more symbolic activity. And HERE is information about a Tibetan/Vajrayana altar, which is significantly more complex and ritualized than you'd see in most Mahayana or Theravada altars. I have read other versions of this info which was specifically more "religious" - IE, if you do this, you will "comfort souls in hell," not specifically "if you do this, it signifies your intent/desire to comfort souls in hell, and is symbolic of your intent to fulfill your bodhisattva vow." At any rate, the heavily ritualized Tibetan altar practice would probably nonplus a Soto Zen practitioner who'd never heard of it before, who might say that there was no point in "accumulating merit", or who thinks that there is, in fact, more merit in simply sitting or cooking rice or washing the dishes. (Soto is, in development, nearly 2000 years removed from Shakyamuni Buddha himself.) Dragging Judeo-Christian references into the discussion (past what I said about Catholicism having some ritualistic parallels, which is NOT THE SAME as saying "Buddhism is just like Catholicism because...") is actually introducing said oranges. Of COURSE Xianity has lots of folk traditions. Dig Mexican Catholicism or some of the customs of isolated, nominally Eastern Orthodox villages in Europe. (continued)
• Furthermore, I would disagree that religion "is" folk tradition. That's simply too broad a statement, and is fallacious for the purposes of this discussion; for one thing, it suddenly transmogrifies your beloved apple orchard into an orange grove. We are no longer in the Neolithic period. Most major modern religions have an "academic" (sometimes "institutional") end and a "folk" end: "How It Is In The Books" and "How It Is Free-Range," and there will always be practitioners who favor one side or the other or some space inbetween of whatever religion they practice. (Which is, I think, A Big Duh.) I do not personally think that, in Buddhist practice, it is very important where you hang your pictures, but some ppl do; this seems to me more a cultural tradition or an interpretation of that thing about "reverence" than a precise dharma teaching. People will find a way to choose what is best for them. It doesn't really MATTER whether some beliefs come Straight Outta Siddhartha's Supposed Mouth and some are done "because... well, that's how we do it, is all": I never said that one or the other was better. But it's not unfair to point out that it's true. Nor is it unfair to note that many sects are historically associated with certain geographic areas, or that things like "the adoption of certain minor Chinese etc deities as Buddhist entities" have occurred. It is easier to state this cheerfully and briefly, rather than taking several long overserious comments to spell it out in detail... but someone took exception to that approach, apparently finding it flippant, and made unnecessary assumptions about my reasons for taking it. I have yet to discern why anyone should be tremendously insulted by the observation, with no attached value judgment, that there are many folk practices in Buddhism, many depending on sect and others on local culture, many comprising the more "worshipful" elements of some sects... except that you apparently presumed I was judging from an anti-Buddhist Xian standpoint. Now I am going to go clutch my Kannon statue pendant, which I wear superstitiously, and hide in the corner.
• umm... kittens, anybody?
• Thanks for the kittens. Verbminx, I hear you. Thanks for your insight.
• "seems to me more a cultural tradition or an interpretation of that thing about "reverence" than a precise dharma teaching." I said the same fucking thing in 1/100th of what you wrote.
• And *I'M* supposed to be the prolix one.
• Chy, not everyone koan be so concise.
• Buddha would say, that the interest in the subject came through.
• Now let me show you an illusion:
• Lotus pray.
• Buddha Loop
• You know, y'nirvana convince anyone with links.
• ...except that you apparently presumed I was judging from an anti-Buddhist Xian standpoint. No and yes. I didn't assume you were a Xian. I assumed you were brought up in an Xian world. I'm sorry I was wrong about that. My western world is like any other to the extent that objectified knowledge in the form of oral traditions (which include religion), media, education, morality etcetera are objectively forced into your subjective existence throught the process of socialization. Sort of unavoidable thing - we should be vigilant. Not a world where eastern mysticism floats the boat. Likewise, I was not brought up in any eastern world, so who am I to say? That doesn't matter. ...that there are many folk practices in Buddhism, many depending on sect and others on local culture, many comprising the more "worshipful" elements of some sects... This seems somewhat tamer than this statement: ...it seems to me like most of the "religious" aspects of Buddhisms are carryovers of local folk traditions: particularly altars and the rituals to be used with them, etc... Using the word religious in quotes. It is considered a religion both by practicioners and non-practicioners. Although the mindset of belief may seem different to you it still is a religion. Most and many are handy generalizations. Please tell me how important the rest of the "religious" aspects of Buddhisms are to you and consider how important they are for other people in the future. Errata: I was born an asshole. The many different varieties of Buddhism occur over in the domain of different socializing agents. Like what Chyren said. The concept of supernatural is meaningful or meaningless depending on your own socialization process, which has varying levels of discourse. It happens in the family, street and school. The agents of your socialization come from their own agents of socialization. Socialization pretty much occurs by virally replicating concepts like memes. Agnosticism is a supernatural belief. What is the manifesto of possible belief constructs in your opinion? Is it one belief, mutliples, one entity, multiples, benevolent, malicious, other or still undecided? My definition of religion as folk tradition does not presuppose that they can all be compared as apples to apples, that's a non-sequitur. It only illustrates origination. The use of Judeo-Christian concepts was to illustrate a point about the folk tradition similarities that we, in our "invisible worlds," take for granted. The "invisible world" represents personal bias. The "magic ruler" is a reference to an Oliver Stone film called JFK. We have no real reason to believe the psychology of Neolithic belief in the supernatural differs a whit from today. I apologize if I upset you. I had no idea you could tell whether or not you were insulting someone. It's interesting that you've adopted leanings of Buddhism in your own private religion yet do not accept their religious nature. Do you go to a temple?
• Edit that last line. That was just rude, my apologies, verbminx.
• Texas. Lookin' good, boys! Jesus. Seriously, wtf?