March 28, 2006

McGovern says Iraq, Vietnam same war "The Vietnam War was his issue when he won the 1972 Democratic Party nomination for president. He recently reviewed his campaign speeches focusing on that war, concluding, 'Today, you can just cross out Vietnam and write in Iraq. It’s the same thing. That insurgency kept rolling in Vietnam the longer we stayed.'” Compare and Contrast (pdf) html version Show your work.

According to the $15 globe I keep next to my protractor and pencil sharpener, Vietnam is in fact not the same as Iraq. Or vice-versa for that matter. I now consider the problem solved. And yet - there are some *cough*quagmire*cough* similarities, arguably.

posted by petebest 18 years ago
  • One significant difference is casualty rates. To reach the casualty rates of the Vietnam War, the Iraq War would have to go on for the next 30 years or so. I can understand the rush to equate Iraq with Vietnam. The Vietnam War was the defining event of a great many of the baby boomers' lives, and remains a huge bone of contention even today (see: Vets for Kerry/Bush, etc). And for a new generation of youthful malcontents who wish desperately for *something* to rebel against, but for whom no such defining moment has occurred, Iraq was manna from heaven. I mean, before the Iraq War, kids were protesting the WTO meetings. That's like protesting the Rotary Club. I was expecting lines of kids to start chanting and waving signs outside Baskin Robbins for not coming up with a 32nd flavor. "1-2-3-4, where the fuck's our coffee sherbet!" But other than them both taking a bit longer than anticipated, I think any real similarities between Iraq and Vietnam are a little stretchy.
  • yeah those crazy kids... they just need something to rebel against! human rights, ice cream... same difference, eh, fes?
  • More of a matter of scale, Wedge. also: Why Iraq and Vietnam have nothing whatsoever in common.
  • "1-2-3-4, where the fuck's our coffee sherbet!" Hehehe. Hey . . . where is our coffee sherbet?! Well anyway, that "casualty rate" is addressed in one of the articles Fes - I wish I could remember which one . . .
  • I’d agree there are political similarities. The most striking one, and probably the big magilla, is that the politicians are ignoring what is being said by the guys on the ground. The political vision isn’t paired with the physical and strategic realities. There are differences of course (as pointed out above) but I think the biggest difference is that there is no draft. *coughYetcough* That I think would be the last political nail in the coffin for the engagement in Iraq. College students would become interested. Apathy is the one thing that keeps the giant sleeping. Nice one petebest. (sorry about the whole ‘Ringo’ thing)
  • middle one, pete. As comparisons go, it is a remarkably evenhanded document. *coughYetcough* never happen, Smedleyman. The government doesn't want it (sudden death for them at election time, is why all draft legislation has been floated by democrats), the military doesn't want it (a logistical nightmare - who wants to train thousands of green troops that don't want to be there?), and the people don't want it.
  • also: welcome!
  • College students would become interested. Apathy is the one thing that keeps the giant sleeping. You know, it's funny, but that's another different between now and Vietnam, and maybe it *is* draft-related. Although all the college students I know are vigorously anti-Bush and anti-Iraq War, you sure don't hear about a lot of campus protesting going on.
  • How are Bu$hCo supposed to know which mistakes they are supposed to avoid? None of them were in Vietnam.
  • Ok, that made me laugh. No fair!
  • "...but that's another different between now and Vietnam..." Because the protests against the Vietnam war took place in an era that is significantly different in terms of perceived human freedoms. The Vietnam era was a period of emergence from opression for many, and the protests against the war served as a focal point for that tension. Now the masses are sated by bread and circuses, and have no sense of danger to their personal safety since there is no draft. "...all draft legislation has been floated by democrats..." Of the Lieberman stripe, I should imagine.
  • Hollings in the Senate, Rangel in the House.
  • you sure don't hear about a lot of campus protesting going on. You sure don't. Which is not to say they're not out there. During the rush to war you sure didn't hear much about massive protests all over the world. On the Intarwebs, sure but on CBS? Fox? (Heh. Fox.) How are Bu$hCo supposed to know which mistakes they are supposed to avoid? None of them were in Vietnam. *zing!* ))!
  • As we all recall, President Johnson chose not to raise taxes to pay for the Vietnam war. This lead to an increase in government debt, which then lead to the inflation of the '70s. That lead to a recession and Jimmy Carter. This, of course is a vast oversimplification. There was also the Oil Shock during the early '70s.
  • From un-'s link: "The initial excessive use of force in counterinsurgency warfare instead of a plan to win hearts and minds. The U.S. military, since the days of U.S. Grant, has used superior firepower to win wars of attrition against its enemies. In Vietnam, the U.S. military used such tactics initially, but later adopted a softer counterinsurgency strategy only after it was too late." Also: "The Nixon administration never fully explained how the less capable South Vietnamese military could defeat the insurgency when the powerful U.S. military had failed. The same problem exists in Iraq." And: "Retention of incompetent policymakers." Yes, yes, and yes.
  • In some respects (long term consequences), I'd say that this war is worse than Vietnam. If, for instance, the balance in the civil war shifts to a fundamentalist Shi'ih faction hostile to both the U.S. and Israel but allied with Iran, we'll be looking at a vastly different mid-east in twenty years.
  • Cold War and Iraq War are the same. Vietnam was much less expensive.
  • But then, Vietnam was part of the cold war... so in that sense, Iraq = Vietnam, less casualties, more bankrupcy.
  • I like wars that have ended, and I look forward to liking the war in Iraq.
  • Well anyway, that "casualty rate" is addressed in one of the articles Fes - I wish I could remember which one . . . Reminds me of an article I read about how many more "injured" soldiers are coming home... rather than being shipped back in a pine box. It has to do with the advances on the field in medical technology. They can stem the flow of blood, do impromptu amputations, use defibrilators, etc. Combined with the increase in tech in the body armor field this leads to less deaths. However, as the article stated (and I really wish I could find it) The Army is now left with many, many more ex-soldiers who, in many cases, are unable to continue working per their civvy fields. How are these folks supposed to support their families? (Mechanics, construction, engineers... all fields the non-war Army trains their soldiers in, need legs, arms, etc.) It's really quite frightening when you try and wrap your mind around how many soldiers aren't necessarily a "statistic" but are no longer 100% for whatever reason. (whether it be mental or physical)
  • We haven't had any monks set themselves on fire yet. ...that I've seen.
  • Also... (sorry to go off on a tangent...) But I saw a show on the Discovery channel which stated that during WWI only 20% of green soldiers fired their guns in their first battles. They simply weren't trained killers yet. So, for WWII the Army had introduced more effective "brainwashing" (or automatic reflex as they referred to it) into training to make green soldiers fire. However, the effective rate only rose to about 50%. After dealing with the Reich, however, they began to adopt certain training methods Hitler's army used as their army had an overall 80% fire rate (to their knowledge at least). As of Vietnam, the initial fire rate was close to the Reich, at 75%... With the Reich's "additional" training, and (according to the show) the introduction of indoctrinated video game players... the rate has rose to 98+% for this war. Quite scary, but it makes sense from a military POV.
  • Video games.
  • LOTS of stuff from the Reich has been implemented into US policy. They were very effective at quashing resistances, for instance, and some of those techniques live on.
  • "In Vietnam, the Communists waged a classic, centrally-directed, three-stage Maoist-model revolutionary war complete with territorial sanctuaries and a detailed political and economic program designed to mobilize peasant support. The Communists had a perfected strategy of revolutionary war, well-indoctrinated and–trained troops and political cadre, and a wealth of revolutionary war experience in the French-Indochinese War (1946-54). The Communist war in Vietnam also enjoyed critical external assistance. The insurgency in Iraq bears little resemblance to this model.Largely urban-based and relatively small in number, the Iraqi insurgents appear to be a mélange of former Ba’athist regime operatives, sympathetic Sunni Arabs (including disbanded Iraqi military offi cers and soldiers), al-Qaeda and other Islamist suicide bombers, hired gunmen and more recently militant anti-American Shi’ites. As such, the insurgency does not seem to be centrally directed the way the Vietnamese Communists were." There's a point - the Iraq insurgency isn't as well organized. However, organizational technology is 40 years more advanced. And yet, seeing disparate elements of Mid East insurgents work together doesn't seem to happen that often.
  • Ah. It was from the Slate article: "But a comparative analysis of U.S. casualty statistics from Iraq tells a different story. After factoring in medical, doctrinal, and technological improvements, infantry duty in Iraq circa 2004 comes out just as intense as infantry duty in Vietnam circa 1966—and in some cases more lethal. Even discrete engagements, such as the battle of Hue City in 1968 and the battles for Fallujah in 2004, tell a similar tale: Today's grunts are patrolling a battlefield every bit as deadly as the crucible their fathers faced in Southeast Asia." I'm reading that as saying the casualty totals don't match, but the hazardous duty does. Which, given similar situation over time - would match the casualty totals.
  • Similarities between the Iraq War and the Vietnam War:
    • The US entered the war on false pretenses
    • The US is going to lose
    • The US is simultaneously claiming the country's government is sovereign and trying to call the shots
    • The conflict is primarily political, but the US is trying to win it militarily
    • The opponents of the US are in their own country, and fighting to control their own country
    • Language and cultural differences make it difficult to distinguish friend from foe
    • The US government is lying about how well things are going
    • The US is overstating the involvement of external forces
    • The military is trying to fight an insurgency using army-vs.-army methods
    Differences between the Iraq War and the Vietnam War:
    • Vietnam is mostly jungle; Iraq is mostly desert
    About the casualties: medical technology and medevac capabilities have advanced so much since the Vietnam War, and body armor is more commonly used, that many people survive horrific injuries now that would've been fatal in the Vietnam War. Also, comparing the casualties so far in the Iraq War to the entire Vietnam War is misleading. Iraq 2004 Looks Like Vietnam 1966 .
  • Devastating post, kirk.
  • The US is going to lose This is just silly. They won the first leg quite convincingly, didn't they? So, even if they "come second" on points, they'll still have a combined score to get them through to the semis. Personally, I predict the US will meet Iran in the next round, and then it's even money that they'll make the final in Paris. That's the trouble with you guys, you're so fucking down on your own team. You bought Jesus from Roma for $14 million and now you're throwing your hands in the air, "WAAH WAAH he hasn't scored in 2,000 years". Give the guy a fucking break! It's your midfield you should be worried about.
  • The final is in Paris? I'm in London! The phosporous fumes will reach here! *starts digging*
  • OOPS I shoulda put a warning on that - ***CONTAINS ARMAGEDDON SPOILERS*** ***DO NOT READ IF YOU WANT TO ENJOY THE TRICK ENDING OF THE UNIVERSE***
  • Then the Bush administration took the decision to appoint Paul Bremer, a former partner of Kissinger Associates, as head of the Coalition Provisional Authority. Our best friends in Iraq—the Kurds—were immediately alarmed by this fantastically tactless decision. They can never forget how in 1975, having ostensibly backed a Kurdish revolt against Saddam Hussein, Kissinger sold out the rebels in return for a secret deal with the shah of Iran and left them to die unaided on the mountainsides. The story is best told in the Pike committee's report on intelligence, which took a long while to be declassified. Upon arrival, Bremer did not inspire confidence: At an early meeting in northern Iraq, he pointed to a portrait of Gen. Barzani, the national hero of the Kurdish resistance, and asked, "Who's that?" There was a general feeling that he could have been better briefed. Didn't know that.
  • Bush Visits Vietnam HANOI, Vietnam (AP) -- President Bush, on his first visit to a country where America lost a two-decade-long fight against communism, said Friday the Vietnam War's lesson for today's Iraq conflict is that freedom takes time to trump hatred. Just when I think ShrubCo can no longer boggle my tired little mind. What the Sweet Pumpernickle is Bush doing in Vietnam!?!? A baby boomer who came of age during the turbulent Vietnam era and spent the war in the United States as a member of the Texas Air National Guard, Bush said he was amazed by the sights of the one-time war capital. "My first reaction is history has a long march to it . . " Bush said BAAAAIIIIIIGGGGHHHHHH!!!! /runs_screams
  • Just wait 'till you see where he stops next.
  • You know Iraq is going badly when people suggest the way to turn it around is to make it more like Vietnam.
  • Right. Now, how do we make Gitmo more like the Bay of Pigs?
  • Surely, we have upgraded napalm by now? Oops, been there, done that...
  • Oy.
  • Proof that Iraq is not Vietnam: Bush approval rating sinks to 28% whereas LBJ bottomed out at 35. According to a CBS poll (pdf file).
  • d0iNk! (repurposed H-dogg link from "How's Your Boy" thread not to be taken internally, limit one per customer, for more information ask your doctor.)
  • What an Odd Thing to Say Lawmakers said Mr. Bush made no commitments, but seemed grateful for their support and said a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq could cause the sort of chaos that occurred in Southeast Asia after Americans left Vietnam.
  • He'd cite Charlie and the Chocolate Factory in defense of Iraq. In fact, I doubt if there's anything he wouldn't cite in defense of Iraq, whether it made sense or not.
  • Our Troops Must Leave Iraq, by Walter Cronkite and David Krieger