February 15, 2006

(DISTURBING IMAGES)Several new photos taken in the notorious Abu Gharib prison have been released, more will be released on Australian TV tonight.

Story here "Although a US judge last year granted the union access to the photographs following a freedom-of-information request, the US Administration has appealed against the decision on the grounds their release would fuel anti-American sentiment. Some of the photos are similar to those published in 2004, others are different. They include photographs of six corpses, although the circumstances of their deaths are not clear. There are also pictures of what appear to be burns and wounds from shotgun pellets."

posted by waitingtoderail 18 years ago
  • Obviously it's important that all of the pictures come out, just so that the magnitude of this crime can be documented. Still at this point, I don't think it will have any effect on the Bush regime. If what we've seen already hasn't upset the American public, nothing will.
  • If what we've seen already hasn't upset the American public, nothing will. I disagree. I think the average American does not consider naked pyramids and barking dogs "torture", especially when they're contrasted with Americans' heads being sawed off. Still at this point, I don't think it will have any effect on the Bush regime. Sadly, I agree with this. Moneyjane, can I come crash on your couch?
  • ah! well now I know what the view from the moral highground really looks like. God Bless Damn America!
  • Having only seen the 15 photos in the Herald slideshow (that is, there may be worse to come), I have to ask -- are these shots are really different enough from what we've seen to provoke much more shock and revulsion?
  • I do. These are worse - there also appears to be a child in one of them - the one with two people facing the wall and two sitting on their shoulders facing the camera - the one on the right appears to be a pre-teen.
  • It's too little, too late. We've seen it before and the majority of people in this country have come to believe that torture is not just a necessary evil but that it is an imperative to our military success. There will be no rage, no outcry, even the apologists will not have to defend these images -- they are within the limits of what we find acceptable behavior now.
  • yeah - I'm not sure what it would take. If Seymour Hersh is to be believed, there is worse out there, but is it bad enough?
  • I looked at these pictures and don't want to immediately dismiss them as torture photos. I have come to acknowlege that war is unpleasant, (declared or not), and I also understand that there are people who will make anything a political issue. I'm not buying these as the atrocities you want to advance.
  • Previous Abu Ghraib thread, just for the record.
  • Well, the Australian TV show will be showing worse. It will not be showing the most sexually graphic ones. Executive producer Mike Carey says Dateline obtained a file of hundreds of pictures, some that have been seen before and others that show new abuses. Some photos feature prisoners in sexually humiliating acts that are deemed too graphic to be shown on the program, he said. Video footage apparently shows one prisoner abusing himself by bashing his own head against a wall, while other photographs appear to show corpses. Mr Carey says he assumes other journalists might also have seen the photographs but does not know why they have not been released yet.
  • War is terrible. If soldiers on any side of any previous war had access to cameras like our soldiers do now, I think that we would find photographic evidence of inappropriate behavior by everyone. That is the nature of war. These actions are bad and should be discouraged. They are hardly the fault of Bush nor do they change the fact that what we were doing was right. If photos were released that showed US soldiers mistreating German or Japanese POWs (which probably exists), I don't think that anyone would be questioning the US involvement in the war.
  • I pretty much knew the content of these, am already appalled, am helpless to do anything until November, and even then it won't matter. When the call comes to man the barricades, I plan to go.
  • "If photos were released that showed US soldiers mistreating German or Japanese POWs (which probably exists), I don't think that anyone would be questioning the US involvement in the war." The main difference, of course, is that THE JAPANESE ATTACKED US and GERMANY DECLARED WAR ON US. The Iraqis did nothing to us.
  • What we were doing was right? By what measure? We had to bomb the country to save it? Pah. You liars have no shame.
  • War is terrible. Except, remember, we're not fighting this country -- we're liberating it. One of the main arguments for going in was to rescue Iraq's people from a tyrant who oppressed and tortured them. Instead, it would appear that we're doing the same thing. Remember when we were going to be greeted with parades? And flowers? Remember how the whole country was going to embrace us after freeing them from their horrible dictator? Remember hearts and minds? Somewhere along the way, we went from being the Good Guys... to this. Fuck you and your tacit approval. Please, for the good of your soul and the good of my country, reconsider how you could possibly be okay with this.
  • The Iraqis did nothing to us. Wait, I thought they blew up the Empire State Building.
  • No no, it was the CN tower or something.
  • *cries*
  • Native American Indians never did nothing to us, either. Should we give them back their land, pack our things, and move back to Europe? Part of the responisibility of having power means using that power to improve safety and the condition of lives overall. I feel confident that when all is said and done that Iraq will be a safer place with improved living conditions. Surrounding countries are already safer because Iraq is no longer in a position to threaten its neighbors.
  • "Native American Indians never did nothing to us, either. Should we give them back their land, pack our things, and move back to Europe?" The American government has certainly supported Israel, hasn't it? Exactly the same damn logic. The native Americans have a better claim to North America than the Jews do to Israel, following that position. Apart from the crude native American analogy, the absurd claim that Iraq is better off, or will be better off in some rosy possible future, is cruel, self-serving, and bereft of any kind of sense. Iraq wasn't in a position to threaten its neighbours before this war, wingnut. Even when it invaded Kuwait, it did so *only under the impression the US sanctioned the act*. In addition, on the point of threatening its neighbours, when Iraq actually *was* at war with one of them, Iran, USA fully backed Iraq and armed it. So that line is bullshit, too, isn't it? I mean, is the US going to invade *every* nation that somehow threatens its neighbours? I'll give you the answer: the present administration would like to, but only if that nation has some oil. The US is not, and was never meant to be, the fucking police force of the world. Plus, it does an incompetent job when it tries to be, so please, the rest of the world would like it to: fuck off. Looking at your facile, easily demolished GOP talking-point driven arguments, plus your user name 'wingnut' one is tempted to believe you are a troll.
  • Wait, I thought they blew up the Empire State Building. That was a genetically engineered super-ape from New Zealand. We should invade those bastards.
  • I am ashamed for my country and her people.
  • If Seymour Hersh is to be believed, there is worse out there, but is it bad enough? I'm afraid that, even if those now in-famous videos involving minors surfaced on global media, that 51% of the USA public would react to it. Too much invested already; time, effort, faith in a bunch of crooks and their divine guidance. Nobody wants to accept to have been fooled. OK. But still there are those that try to justify abominations. So I guess the only thing left, according to them, is to pray that some mistake doesn't happens and they or us or anybody is taken aboard a plane and given a free tour for some waterboarding.
  • ...that 51% of the USA public wouldn't react to it.
  • Reminds me of an article I read in the Times on Monday. They dropped the case against one of the leaders in an Army torture case. The military tribunal decided to, as it would "not be good for America." The hell with justice, it would make us look bad, so just sweep it under the rug. I also second (or third) the sentiment that war is Hell, which is why it shouldn't be undertaken lightly. Atrocities have been and will be committed by troops on either side of any conflict. It's mob mentality meets god-complex. Give a bunch of folks a rifle and a license to kill, and shit WILL happen. VERY BAD SHIT. I'm not trying to make any excuses for inhumane treatment of anyone, but try to imagine a friend of yours crying because one of his buddies got blown up by an IED, and then having a similar suspect handed to you in handcuffs. Add two more parts of complete breakdown in leadership and regulations, and you got yourself a genuine torture case. Sure, I'd like to think that I'd be above that, but until I've walked a mile, I don't think I'd be willing to make any concrete decisions about the matter. Yes, "we" started this... and Yes, I don't agree with the war, never have, and No, I don't condone the behavior of these soldiers. But... I kinda, almost understand. In the same way I understand the "I vas just following orders" sentiment. I mean, if I had gotten drafted into Hitler's army, and my CO wanted me to hurt some camp members, what choice do you have? disobey and end up in the same situation, on the receiving end of the stick? Or, push down your morals and humanity, and go home at the end of the night. That's a choice I hope I will never have to make, because I need to look at myself in the mirror to shave. Great... now I'm depressed... C'est la vie... p.s. Humanz R teh suk.
  • Um i am still incredibly naive or i have no belief system that tells me that i am better than someone else therefore i can treat them as scum. The pictures sicken me as much as the originals did... There is absolutely no reason for people (bitter laughter) to behave like this in any way shape or form thus speaketh the unreformed and obviously completely idiotic idealist. Oh had the misfortune to be somewhere that involved the uninformed acting as prison guards one day in charge of the desperate. Of course the ignorant, uninformed and frightened behaved as opressors to the frightened and desperate - sickening and ugly, I had never thought to see such here. I guess in truth humans suck!
  • I totally agree with Chryen despite being a pom and Chyren being an antipodean! "Team America" had it right. Fuck Yeah!!
  • Anyone who thinks this is fine sickens me.
  • re the assertions along the lines of "war is bad and bad things happen during way", i'd note that the vast majority of these photos are not of troops overreacting after being in the line of fire and under pressure for days. the majority of these pictures are of prison guards amusing themselves by humiliating and abusing prisoners. these guards are much safer and are objectively under much less stress than the troops who patrol dangerous areas in iraq. they're not letting off steam; they're behaving sadistically. side note: can anyone tell me if the sydney morning herald is a murdoch organ?
  • side note: can anyone tell me if the sydney morning herald is a murdoch organ? I work for them. It is most emphatically not.
  • Just because something is understandable, doesn't mean it's right.
  • It's not as if the psychology of wartime, and prisons, and the effects it has on people and their morals is unknown....it's not some mysterious region on a map saying "here be dragyns...." That's what command and control and army hierarchy and training and all that is supposed to be about, in part....trying to keep a person's humanity intact by not letting them run off and indulge their darkest impulses. Which will get brought up, front and centre, under these conditions. This is known. Take the Stanford prison experiment for instance. It's over 30 years old. This happened because it was allowed to happen...explicitly allowed to happen. Someone, somewhere, gave permission for this to occur.
  • I feel confident that when all is said and done that Iraq will be a safer place with improved living conditions. And your basis for this confidence is...? General personal optimism? If photos were released that showed US soldiers mistreating German or Japanese POWs (which probably exists), I don't think that anyone would be questioning the US involvement in the war. I can maybe see an argument for the two horrible things being separate issues (the involvement and the torture) but even if that's true they're still both symptoms of a system that's not working. And maybe, if we don't have the resources and manpower to keep these young soldiers properly supervised, trained, and not overworked enough to let this happen, we've got no business deploying an army so unequipped for its task.
  • "That's what command and control and army hierarchy and training and all that is supposed to be about, in part....trying to keep a person's humanity intact by not letting them run off and indulge their darkest impulses." I don't think it's designed for that at all. It's designed for creating efficient, order-obeying kill-drones, slotted together in a big mass that is controlled via the command structure, another mind-fuck hierarchy routine. The not losing humanity line is PR bullshit tacked on in the last couple of decades to make the killing machine look a bit more cuddly. "Someone, somewhere, gave permission for this to occur." Yep. The crew was ordered to break the captives, totally break them, by any means necessary. Unfortunately very few of the soldiers under this provision were appraised of the details of the Geneva convention treaties, it seems.
  • Chyren- That's part of it, yes, to respond to combat with combat reflexes but....these guys also have to hang around bases, get bored, not do very much for a heck of a lot of the time (especially when not invading other countries) and do so without ripping each other's heads off.
  • monkeyfilter: make the killing machine look a bit more cuddly.
  • If photos were released that showed US soldiers mistreating German or Japanese POWs (which probably exists), I don't think that anyone would be questioning the US involvement in the war. WTF!? Can't we aspire to better? Both sides used gas in WWI should we go back to that too?
  • the details of the Geneva convention treaties Oh, that quaint little document? We're not really... "doing" the Geneva thing any more, Chy. Anyway, that only applies to POW's, these were "enemy combatants", you know. Totally different.
  • Someone, somewhere, gave permission for this to occur. That would be Al-Gonzo, our Attorney General who recently lied to congress spoke at a judicial committee on illegal wiretapping. Good work, ShrubCo. Restoring dignity & whatnot.
  • "The more the coloniser thinks of the colonised as an animal, the more likely he is to treat him as an animal, and thus the more likely he is to objectively turn himself into an animal." - Aimé Césaire (quoted from memory)
  • If you can get eats from an eatery can you get shrubs from a shrubbery?
  • (I get all my facts from the factory...)
  • Well, I went to the Seminary and now my pages are stuck together.
  • Come on, it's just a bit of fun and the perps have been perpatised. Babies.
  • I agree - this is NOTHING. Back in MY day we used to wage holy war against the Mohammadists to cleanse the holy land of their foul heresies but that was 2004 for ya.
  • Phew, quidnunc I thought you were referring to the Holy Crusades of the 11th and 13th Centuries especially the Third Crusade of 1187, which was led by several of Europe's most important leaders: Philip II of France, Richard I of England and Frederick However, the inability of the Crusaders to thrive in the locale due to inadequate food and water resulted in an empty victory.
  • Is that the one where they sent the children off to be maimed? Good times. good times.
  • And if this causes strive in the Arab world, a reminder that it could have been avoided if they had released all the images when the event occurred, rather than saving some for later so everybody gets to be incensed all over again.
  • ^ should read strife.
  • what waitingtoderail and roryk said. just counting down the ever-decreasing reasons to be "proud to be an american."