February 07, 2006

Iranian Paper Plans Holocaust Cartoons A prominent Iranian newspaper said Tuesday it would hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West extends the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.

Protests Over Drawings a 'Global Crisis' Can the West put its money where its mouth is? Or will they just chalk it up to that crazy ol' Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, acting all crazy again?

posted by Koko 18 years ago
  • I hope they will find "The West" (whatever that means) doesn't care what they print in their newspaper.
  • As do I, rocket. My right to say what I wish is greater than anyone's right not to be offended. And the same goes for others' right to say something that offends me.
  • That would be perfect. End all armed conflict, and slug out all discrepancies via silly little cartoons. I saw yesterday a note on BBCNews on this, with the headline caption: CARTOONS REVOLT. How surreal.
  • In a very wierd way, I'm happy cartoons are getting some . . . well, attention if not respect.
  • I wonder what will happen if there is no big reaction from the west. Will it calm things down? I'm thinking no.
  • In junior high I wrote a Weird Al inspired version of Journey's "Who's Crying Now" entitled "Jews Frying Now." I think I'll go try to dig it up and mail it to Iran. Is there any money in this thing?
  • How is this different from what Arab newspapers publish routinely? (furor over cartoons just proves its time for the alien overlords to move in and impose order)
  • It's actually an interesting experiment from a freedom of speech point of view. According to Wikipedia, denying the holocaust is illegal in Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Switzerland. If we're free speech absolutists (and, I am), there's work to do in 'The West", too.
  • Oh wait, I think they expect Denmark papers to publish the winners. I think they forgot that speech is only free if you own the presses. They are just encouraging outrage++ when they find out that Iran doesn't control the presses in Denmark again.
  • Mord's got it, as far as the Arab press goes. How will anyone well the difference? And MCroft, as it happens, plenty of Westerners think holocaust denial laws are dumb.
  • (Oh, and best cartoon on the topic: here).
  • I'll be honest, I'm more than a little flummoxed by the sheer, utter ridiculousness of the entire affair. I can't help but think: wtf? What's missing here? THis whole thing feels like an Underpants Gnome project: 1. Publish cartoons 2. ??? 3. Riot!
  • I take offense to that! You will die! Y'know, cause we all gotta go some day, eh?
  • I am beginning to think "oh but wouldnt it be just like the human race to start ww3 and destroy itself over a fucking political cartoon???"
  • 2. ??? This is the classic "report on news itself when there is no news" scenario. The more they reported, the more it became news. And now it really is news.
  • Mord's point highlights the big problem: the confluence, in the heads of a lot of the protesters, of the European press and the European governments. If you've no experience of a free press, uncontrolled by a government, it's difficult to understand that a cartoon printed in a newspaper might not actually be a message sanctioned by a country's leadership. And the governments in those countries are not going to put people right, lest the obvious question be asked.
  • The more they reported, the more it became news. And now it really is news. Violent riots directed at foreign embassies *are* real news. The question is, why does a cartoon trigger such violence? Other questions are: Why are non-followers of a religion expected to follow the rules of that religion? and Why are so many western media types afraid to point out the stupidity of the overreaction?
  • Muhammad with a bomb in his turban is the classic image for this whole affair.
  • And now it really is news. Violent riots directed at foreign embassies *are* real news. Then we agree.
  • >Why are non-followers of a religion expected to follow the rules of that religion? Well, that's the same question as 'why is it controversial to teach evolution in public schools', or 'why should the government get to decide whether you can marry people of a particular gender'. Personally, I'd love to hear the western media LOUDLY asking the question 'why are non-followers of a religion expected to follow the rules of that religion?'
  • Yesterday an American blogger discovered where the pigsnout Muhammad comes from. It has no relation to Muhammad whatsoever, it is not even a cartoon, but a fax image of a photo of a French clown performing at a pig festival. Denmark is being punished at the instigation of radical imams because twelve cartoonists have depicted Muhammad. However, these imams created their own three Muhammad images. They have even presented a French clown as being Muhammad. Because the twelve JP cartoonists are not Muslims, the Muslim blasphemy laws do not apply to them. But these laws do apply to the imams. Consequently, these imams deserve death. They – and no-one else – depicted the prophet as a pig – the highest imaginable insult in Islam.
  • rocket88: Why are so many western media types afraid to point out the stupidity of the overreaction? Well, several reasons: 1/ The normal scenario in the last few years, especially, has been defendinging reasonable, non-insane, non-suicide-bombing Moslems from batshitinsane attacks by non-Moslems. Some of those people appear to be having sevre difficulties coping with widespread batshitinsane behaviour by. 2/ The brown people can do no wrong trope. Some people appear to have an irrational attachment to stroeis of victimhood that transcend any actual behaviour by individuals. 3/ Following a craven lead. A number of prominent British (e.g. Jack Straw) and New Zealand politicians has taken an utterly revolting lickspittle position of suggesting that the limit of free speech is whatever will cause some people to threaten to kill you. 3/ Oppertunism. There are plenty of people who would like to see our traditions of free speech curtailed by requirements for "responsible reporting", not just Muslims who want me live by their damn-fool superstitions. Other religious groups are chiming in: the Vatican is currently trying to get some silly cartoon censored in New Zealand because it makes fun of the Catholic Church. The Pope may have given up calling for Crusades to enact the mass-murder of people who don't genuflect in his direction, but I'm sure the church would be more than happy to piggyback onto this to encourage "respect for religion" laws that shut down anyone who wants to make fun of him, too. Note, for example, Tony Blair was trying to do just that with a law that was so loosely written that you could arguably be imprisoned for, say, writing some of the less tasteful South Park episodes involving Jesus. He only lost by one vote in Parliament. And, looky-looky, here's Jack Straw using this as a jumping-off point for attacking free speech. 4/ Fear. There are big, often culturally isolated populations of Muslims in many European nations. It's interesting to see how little it's taken in Britain, for example, to go from Muslims demonstrating against the London Underground bombers to ending up with protests calling for more of them.
  • Whoops. My numbering's all done gone wrong. Should have spent more time in preview.
  • oh but wouldnt it be just like the human race to start ww3 and destroy itself over a fucking political cartoon??? Or because the invisible man in the sky isn't powerful enough to defend himself from a good ribbing, and requires his followers to respond with a little of the old ultra-violence.
  • Of course, Mohammed isn't the invisible man in the sky. If you believe the Koran, he was quite insistent on the point he was just an ordinary man (with a hotline to god). Elevating him so much sounds like idolatory to me!
  • What? But I didn't SAY Muhammed, did I? (you see the Christians...)
  • And technically, since Muhammed is long since dead, why he needs protecting from any insult is beyond me... and presumably he is invisible and, well, in heaven, I suppose.
  • 2/ The brown people can do no wrong trope. That's ridiculous. Our society feeds off of images of "brown people" doing wrong. We love it, it justifies continued economic, political and educational segregation, not to mention pretty much all of our wars for the past fifty years, including the one on drugs. Not that I don't think the idiots who are burning down danish embassies and such are anything BUT wrong, mind you. I just don't think your point is valid.
  • I also think the "cartoons about the holocaust" is a relatively clever response. More clever than the "burn down the embassy" response, anyway.
  • Would have more impact if printing cartoons about the Holocaust was not a day to day occurrence. This is actually about the least clever thing they could do, a foolish consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds and all that.
  • Would have more impact if printing cartoons about the Holocaust was not a day to day occurrence. Is it? It's that Mallard Fillmore, ain't it? I knew he was a bad egg. Bad duck egg.
  • In the Arab media? I guess I can go look for a link. The "evil, manipulative Jew" and the "myth of the holocaust" seems to be the Arab equivalent of "man slips on bananna peel", at least from what I've seen.
  • Hey. I once slipped on a banana peel. I am so fucking burning down your embassy. Where is it?
  • We burned it down ourselves last week in protest of a cartoon making fun of people who work in embassies.
  • So, you're right. Not so clever after all. Oh well.
  • The anti-holocaust cartoon thing, that is.
  • Burning down your OWN embassy is hilarious.
  • Maybe the Danes should try it. "You can't burn down our embassy; WE ALREADY DID!" Boycott us? We already embargo'd YOU!
  • That'd teach 'em. Don't fuck with the Danes. They will TOTALLY burn down their own embassy.
  • It could be on their flag and everything.
  • Sorry, the flag was burned in anticipation of a protest.
  • And then we burned the protestors. And another protest happened, and we burned that one too. And then we got a third protest, and that protest we couldn't burn. And thats what you're gonna get, the strongest protest in these here lands.
  • I smell smoke.
  • Anyone got a light?
  • Both the Holocaust and Mommahed cartoons deserve protection under free speech.
  • Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em all. Squares on both sides.
  • The reason for Muslim objections to the cartoons center on the fact that Islam, like some forms of Christianity and Judaism, is an iconoclastic religion. For this reason, the characterisation of the Prophet Muhammad is forbidden. It is not this alone that angered the Muslim world (there are many old portrayals of the Prophet in ancient Persian art that, whilst forbidden, have not provoked angry mobs yet). Rather, it was that the Danes characterised the Prophet in a particularly offensive way that inflamed emotions. Whereas Enlightenment values of freedom of speech may guarantee Western artists the right to dunk crucifixes in urine or depict the Virgin Mary covered in cow dung, Muslims have found these freedoms strangely unappealing. For people who define themselves by their faith and view their religion with a level of seriousness, cartoons that mock the Prophet are seen as an attack on his person and therefore the Islamic faith. For this reason, much of the discussion on the cartoons in the Arab world has centered on ‘defending’ the Prophet Muhammad and seeking an apology for the ‘harm’ that has been done. Of course, neither the Prophet nor Islam were harmed by the cartoons. -Amir Butler
    If you walk out of a bar in Texas, turn to a guy next to you, and loudly pronounce him a fag, don't get mad when you he hits you. Sorry Danes, but you should be smarter than that. ...and /me totally agrees with Nickdanger and Chy.
  • And yes, calling a burly drunk Texan a fag is totally within your rights of free expression. But you'll still get punched - and later called an idiot by your friends - for doing so.
  • this is such an annoying pile of shite. the cartoons were first published in september, yet the world has continued to turn all the way to february. as rxreed points out, the imams are manipulating this story to encourage further rifts between muslim and non muslim populations. muslim countries are entitled to forbid depictions of muhammed, just as other countries can chose to forbid holocaust denial. if the muslim countries want to impose their standards on other countries, they will need to invade and defeat the local population.
  • So did the holocaust happen or not? Intellects vast, cool and unsympathetic want to know. Also what are we supposed to be burning today anyone know?
  • Bushes.
  • The sooner we discover life in outer space the better.
  • the sooner i'm allowed depart for outer space the better.
  • ian: Yes, don't be surprised when he hits you. Also don't be surprised when he gets arrested for assault. And don't be surprised when the judge calls you an idiot, but fines him. Jury nullification, (the 'he was asking for it'/'he needed killin' strategy) is actually pretty rare, even in Texas. I was on a jury about 5 years ago in Houston, Texas and the defense's position was "the guy lost a fight, so he claimed it was asssault. The other guy was asking for it" We didn't even discuss that as a possible reason not to convict.
  • depict the Virgin Mary covered in cow dung Well, no that's not an accurate accounting of that particular brouhaha. But I digress.
  • Imagine what a 'cartoon riot' would look like if it was up to us...
  • a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust I hope Maus wins!
  • If you walk out of a bar in Texas, turn to a guy next to you, and loudly pronounce him a fag, don't get mad when you he hits you. Okay, but can I get mad if he then tries to go kill some people I don't know because they're from the same country?
  • All Texans are fags! *burns down own embassy*
  • Quid, I read the Maus books a few months ago. What an experience. I can't remember when I've felt so shaken. At the end, when the photo of the real Vladek turned up, I burst into tears.
  • As a Texan, I wish the opportunity to introduce a size 11 boot into the nether regions of kitfisto. This should not be misunderstood as foreplay, however.
  • That Texan is attacking my right to free speech. He is teh gay.
  • Only two things come from Texas, boyah! Steers 'n Queers!
  • I was going to say that! Are you the Capt?
  • Somebody called? I was out burning kit's embassy. We Canadian's don't have one over there, so we have to go through Britain's.
  • And why the fuck did I put an apostrophe on 'Canadian's'? *goes off to burn Strunk*
  • I wrote a Weird Al inspired song when I was around 12 or so based on Journey's "Who's Crying Now?" It was called "Jews Frying Now." I am going to send it to Iran to see if I can get some money out of it.
  • No, you don't understand mct. What Ian is defending is the good old, "she was asking for it" defense, made popular oiver years of rape trials; while no longer so popular in Western nations, it was ressurected in Australia recently, and is acceptable in some variant forms (see Matthew Sheppard case, "gay panic"). Other popular variations include "honour killings" ("My sister dresses like a Westerner and dates white men. She is shaming our culture! Of course I had to stab her to death!) Remember folks, you're only free to do what will cause the most violent knuckle-draggers in your community to erupt in violence; they are the sacred guardians of "reasonable behaviour." If you don't understand that, you're obviously an idiot.
  • I'm not an obvious idiot.
  • No, you're much more subtle. Sorry. Couldn't resist.
  • What Ian is defending is the good old, "she was asking for it" defense No, not at all. There is a funadmental disconnect taking place here that most educated Muslims see, yet few educated westerners understand. This newspaper - and to the extent understood by many Muslims the Danish government - insulted Islam. I'll requote Amir:
    For people who define themselves by their faith and view their religion with a level of seriousness, cartoons that mock the Prophet are seen as an attack on his person and therefore the Islamic faith.
    I'm refusing to make any comments relating to freedom of speech* because that is a western value. It may seem to many to be an intrinsic human value, such as thou shalt not kill. Apparently this is not the case. Freedom of speech is obviously not as valued in the middle east as their dominant religion. There is nothing wrong with that. Arabs are still human beings, and Denmark (and Italy and Germany and others) blatantly insulted them and disregarded their value system. You reap what you sow. * as I make a comment about freedom of speech In another bit of my two cents... Arab countries boycotting Danish goods? Fuck yeah. That is awesome. I love seeing people empowered, striking, boycotting, and in general proving to the world that at an economic level they should be respected. Burning embassies? Not so good.
  • By the way, a culture clash that many repub's talk about? Yes, it is there. We do have a east versus west culture clash taking place, in the current form of these protests. This culture clash has been formenting for the last 75 years of Europe completely fucking fucking over the Middle East. And yet, most westerners seem to think this as something trite and to be joked about. Instead this should be studied for cultural understanding, and understood in the larger context of geopolitical history, because ultimately we all share this planet and we'll have to learn to get along one of these days. America's a bully, Europe's a prick, and the Middle East's a knee-jerk. It's like the Ultimate Real World.
  • I'm going out this weekend and buying a danish ham and some havarti. Screw the empowered humorless moslems. I don't for a second think people need to cause innocent Danish workers to suffer because they are offended by a cartoon that their local newspaper published. Way to miss the target. Why not boycott the Danish newspaper... oh right, they don't even get that.
  • And I for one think this should be joked about, ridiculed, repeatedly, rather than letting religious idiocy fester unnoticed.
  • Iran stops trade with an entire nation because of a few cartoons handled and decidedly published by a few individuals, but are still fighting the legitimacy of trade sanctions against themselves over making fissile material suitable for nuclear weapons.
  • By the way, that comment paraphrased from another post on another forum by "phoenix", who hit the nail dead on. This is complete hypocrisy, both regarding the treatment of Jews in Arab media, the extending of Moslem prohibitions to secular individuals, the use of violence when violence is what is being accused, and regarding who to hurt in response to an offense.
  • I too will be buying more Danish goods than normal. Meatballs wrapped in bacon, boiled in lager and served on a pastry by a blonde with curly-up pigtails. Ex-cellent!
  • I too will be buying more Danish goods than normal. Fuck yeah. I'm an information capitalist. This kind of stuff - the discussion of, and action on, global economics on an internet forum - ticklies my nether regions.
  • >>2/ The brown people can do no wrong trope. That's ridiculous. Our society feeds off of images of "brown people" doing wrong. We love it, it justifies continued economic, political and educational segregation, not to mention pretty much all of our wars for the past fifty years, including the one on drugs.<< Both of these ideas exist in Western society, and feed off each other. It's an interesting relationship.
  • What about displaying these cartoons in Lego? And then making little kits of them? Which we could sell? And the Middle East could then boycott? Enh? ENH?
  • Little kits? How cute!
  • Wait. We have to buy more Lego? I have, perhaps, 20,000 bits in and around the Kid's room. I am all in favor of supporting the right to be Danish, but there are limits in the way I will display my support.
  • I'm going to buy some Danish butter. And use it to line my cat's intestinal tract to combat hairball barfs. Denmark! FUCK YEAH!
  • ha ha ha!
  • Hamlet! FUCK YEAH!
  • ok! I am going to start an art project! I will sculpt images of mohammed in danish butter and cheese. join me in this international peace effort!! (let your cat create dairy art with its tongue!)
  • How true
  • Personally, I'd love to see Heathcliff kick the crap out of Garfield.
  • I'd like to see Jane and Betty Boop lez up.
  • How about Archie and Veronica finally hook up.
  • Nah, too vanilla...
  • I'd like to see Archie arch over for Moose. Not that I want to see that so much as I'd like to see Archie in severe emotional and rectal distress from Hot Bear Lovin'. (Can Moose give Hot Bear Lovin'..?) And maybe Jughead and Sabrina the Teenage Witch. There'd be some freaky shit going on there.
  • How 'bout Venus Bluegenes and Betty Rubble? A-hubba hubba!
  • Now you're just being unrealistic.
  • you're both going to hell.
  • Imagine what a 'cartoon riot' would look like if it was up to us... Mine has a soundtrack with a slide-whistle. Boooiiing Whoop Whoop Whoop
  • What about Calvin and Hobbes?
  • Calvin and Hobbes would tag-team wrrestle Charlie Brown and Snoopy.
  • In mud.
  • UN backs anti-blasphemy measure. Goodbye to any freedom of speech in international dialog. Haven't they read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights lately?