February 05, 2006

• Having just been the near-victim of ye olde Bate and Switche yesterday, I found this bit of investigative reporting quite poignant.
• I read that a while ago. It's a great article to read if you're looking at buying a car, definitely. We're reasonably lucky over here; the sellers aren't as evil.
• There's a car-brokerage business here in Canada that will do the purchasing for you. You pay them a small fee and they fax out price requests to the dealerships. You get to avoid the b.s. and pressure tactics. My sister bought her last car through them and got a lower price for the same car than a hardy negotiator friend who went mano-a-mano against a salesman at the dealership. Perhaps the biggest mistake car buyers make at North America dealerships is to ignore the adversarial relationship between buyer and dealer.
• Fortunately we don't, as tracicle says, have the same high-pressure nonsense here in NZ as in the US. But even so, it's remarkable how much a trade-in can vary in value (from $1,500 to $4,000...)
• Right, so our car got wrecked about two weeks ago (girl-on-a-celphone, natch) and the insurance company declared it totaled on Friday and gave us four days before they stopped paying for our rental. So, we've been looking rather frantically over the weekend, and yesterday we found a 97 RAV 4 at a dealership. They had it marked at about 2500 over blue book, but we figured they'd be willing to go down. We looked at it, test drove it, went home and did some research. We give them a call, and say "Alright, if you guys will sell it to us for $7000 out the door, we will drive up there right now and buy it." Salesman naturally says, "Let me talk to my manager." We wait a few minutes, he comes back, "He says okay! Come on down!" Great! And we're on our way! At the dealership, manager comes in and sits down with us, walks us through the paper work, talking the whole time, all smiles. Then he gets to the price: $8,723! "Wait a minute, that's not what we agreed on. We said $7,000 on the phone." He smile disappears real quickly. "You can't find a car like this for $7000," he says. "But on the phone we said $7000." "He didn't mention anything about $7000 to me," he says, jabbing his thumb at the hapless salesman. "I would never have approved it." "But this car's blue book is $6700! It's not worth what you want us to pay!" I say, pretty indignantly. Now the atmosphere is really tense. There's literally a guy blocking the door to this cramped little room, and I suddenly feel like I'm dealing with freaking mafia! "Try to find one! Try to find one!" he says, practically yelling. "You can look at blue book values all day, but you can't find a car like this for that price!" "Sorry, this isn't what we agreed to. We're leaving."I say, getting up from the chair and maneuvering my way past the third party in the doorway. "Try to find one!" he yells again as we walk out of the dealership. You know what? Today we did find one, same make, same model, same year, slightly better condition: $5900. Through a private dealer, mind you, which means it was altogether a much better experience.. Assholes.
• The piece was not very well written though, with whole scentences repeated twice (editing is an art) and waaaay too long. But I read it anyway.
• I forgot to mention our complete sucker status when we went to buy our first car in the US. We rented a vehicle for our first week there (Geo Metro aka golf cart with doors) and headed on down to the Toyota dealership to see what they had. We wanted something we could trip around California in, and something familiar, Toyotas being the dominant make over here in NZ. Well, first we checked out an Echo (which was okay but small). Then we were admiring the look of a Celica which we'd never, ever buy but had a nice-looking interior. The salesman was disappointed when we refused the Celica and then decided to try again later. We were literally about to climb back into our rental when the salesman pulled up next to us in a brand-new Rav 4 with a moon roof and soft-top over the back. We took it. It was a leased vehicle. We even bought the optional teflon coating over the paint, although we drew the line at a blinking brake light. About a year in we finally escaped the lease and found a used VW Jetta, playing as cynically as we could. We still paid too much. Now we only buy after weeks of indecisiveness.
• I have one and only one bargaining strategy. I decide what is acceptable to me, and I walk out the door if I can't get it. I don't haggle. Does it mean that I always get the best deal? Of course not. But it does mean that I am always satisfied because I feel that I got whatever it is on my terms. I refuse to make any significant financial decision on a spur of the moment basis, which is exactly what car dealerships try to make people do.
• Before I read this FPP, is it at least as good as "How to Buy Your New Car for a Rock-Bottom Price" and better then "Selling Ben Cheever"? Just 2 examples of "insiders" spilling the secrets...
• When I bought my last car, we found a salesman who was a little smarmy but not too bad and got a good price at a hair over invoice (new model coming out soon, I had done my research, yadda yadda). The deal almost went south when we sat down with the finance manager who gave us the hard sell over all of the extras and options like extended warranties. My fiance can look a bit threatening at times, and when he stood up with jaw and fists clenched (to walk out, not to assault anyone), I think the guy was afraid he was going to slug him, so he shut up and wordlessly finished our paperwork. I just wish they would listen when you say no to something. I said I didn't want it, asking me fifty times is not going to change my mind.
• I need to buy a new car in the next 3-6 months and reading this makes my tummy hurt.
• My wife had a full blown anxiety attack over this yesterday.
• I just wish they would listen when you say no to something. I said I didn't want it, asking me fifty times is not going to change my mind. Good for you! The problem is that plenty of folks do change their minds, so it reinforces that sucky behaviour on their part.
• Nick, that episode really *sucks*. Bait and switch has to be one of the lowest forms of sales-tardship. Why is the auto industry so bad here in NA? Is it because buyers let these guys get away with stuff?
• I guess it's because it's like that EVERYWHERE you go. I can't say I know too many people who've had a good experience buying a used car. I didn't realize, until I read the article, that the salesmen make money on commission only. That sounds like an excellent formula to turn people into pushy assholes.
• Yeah, and it's not just dealers - some so-called "private sellers" have been known to re-sell cars that have been in severe accidents or are flood-damaged; ones that have been "fixed up" cosmetically for a quick sale.
• Fortunately, there are ways to find out about that sort of thing. Costs money though.
• A good deal of my job involves proofreading ads for the local car dealerships. I get to see on a week-by-week basis how the numbers change. Now, as you might imagine, they are always advertising the low, low prices. Many of these involve rebates that most people cannot qualify for (recent college graduate, military, brand loyalty, dealership loyalty) - sometimes all in the same ad. And most of them involve factory rebates. What that means is that the dealer keeps the rebates, which they add to the profit on the car. (It's easy to take $1500 off the price of a car if you know that you're getting that money from the manufacturer anyway. That's pure profit.) The best points at the end of that article, though, are to use the internet, and also to get the hell out of there if you don't like anything about the deal. The internet - and Carfax if you're buying used - is your friend.
• Not to be a shill, but I bought my last car from CarMax and was super happy with it.
• Craigslist. I buy everything from there, and I am always quite happy. I also completely second bernockle's advice. If, for even a fraction of a second, you have hesitation and feel that feeling in your gut, don't do it. Never do it. Never do a damn thing unless you're completely and utterly sure that what are you are doing is what exactly what you desire*. *it can be getting the desires to line up to reality that get tricky (:
• The kitfisto-mobile (AKA the Blue Bomber) is not long for this earth. I fear the task of finding its heir.
• the pedal now falls off the clutch there's a hole in the floor and with a careless touch the steering wheel will come off in my hand but my old truck is simply grand because a new one costs so bloody much
• I got the Feslian Battlebucket at the used center of a luxury auto place. Not only are the sales guys luxury-auto-trained (meaning, they are very polite and do not fuck with you nearly as much), the quality of the used cars there are overwhelmingly excellent. The best part is that you can get a reasonably fancy-ass car for a fract of what you'd pay for a new, they typically come with full backup from the dealership and manufacturer, and they just seem to be *nicer* about it. I've bought my last two cars at places like this and never regretted a day or a dollar of it. Otherwise, what the always-wise bernockle said. You gotta be willing to walk.
• Do what I do. Take the bus.
• There's always gum on the seats, though.
• Update: Got the (individual seller's) car checked out, it looks fantastic. We'll be buying it tonight. Also, the salesman (not the manager) actually called and apoligized. Doesn't make me want to go and spend way too much for their car or anything, but it does take some of the organized-crime edge off my bitterness. As for your suggestion, Lara, would that I could. Unfortunately, Austin has a fantastic public transportation system that will take you anywhere quickly and conveniently, provided that "anywhere" is on the UT campus. Otherwise, bus travel is simply not a reasonable option. Man, I miss subways.
• Actually, I just realized my comment is the transport version of "get a mac". Damned obnoxious of me, really. I just moved where I'm on the bus line from someplace where I could get no public transport at all, and I'm so excited to have access to it now I guess it makes me silly.
• Get a mac. *flees*
• Some years ago, there were advertisements for dealerships in the US with "absolutely the lowest we'll go quotes so you don't need to bargain" policies. It sounded as though they'd set a minimum profit target and either a straight salary for sales persons, or fixed commission for any sale, so that sales folks didn't have to game you. Does anyone know if they were for real/still exist? And, in case anyone is wondering, "invoice" is not what the dealer pays for the car you buy, if they're any good. There are a lot of hidden "incentives" which reduce the actual price to the dealer. Some are based on quantity of cars ordered, so a large dealer will make more than a smaller one at the same price to the customer. My best car buying experience was when I worked for a subsidiary of a Japanese firm, which had a sort of buddy system arrangement with Nissan. The dealership would take any incentives off the invoice price and add 2 1/2% profit, and that was the price to me. My company would match the profit separately, so the dealer made 5%.
• The thing that interests me is that, since I've moved to this area, it seems cheaper to buy a new car than a (newer) used car. A brand new VW Bug or Mini Cooper, for example, has lower prices listed on the internet than one with 14-20K miles. Why does this occur? Are the used guys counting on the fact that I'll assume that used = cheaper, or are the new car guys lying about their prices?
• It sounded as though they'd set a minimum profit target and either a straight salary for sales persons, or fixed commission for any sale, so that sales folks didn't have to game you. Saturn dealerships are this way. In fact, I've heard that they don't hire salespeople who have previous auto sales experience.
• meridethia - maybe the prices for used cars are very negotiable?
• I recall some car dealerships in the San Jose area whose hook was "no-pressure sales". Salesmen were on salary, not commission, and prices were realistic. Of course I didn't hear about those until after we'd bought our car.
• Side comment to the new owner of a RAV4: Under the hood, near the right front wheel well, there is a sticker that shows when the drive belt was last replaced (should happen every 60k miles). It'll cost up to $400 to get the job done, deending on area prices, but it is a lot less expensive than a rebuilt or replaced engine. That said, our 1997 RAV4L has been a beauty. We bought it in 1999/2000 as it came off of a 3 year dealer lease, impeccably maintained. We have not had any major repairs in these past six years.
• brand new VW Bug or Mini Cooper, for example, has lower prices listed on the internet than one with 14-20K miles. Why does this occur? I'm guessing it's because both of those models are fairly popular or 'hot' right now (not in the stolen sense). It's not unusual for the used prices for hot items to lose a realistic connection to the new prices. An amazing number of people will buy at the high used price as well, assuming they are getting a deal and simply refusing to do any research.
• If the used dealers are really getting these prices, it makes me want to buy a new one and then turn around and sell it used at a profit. Darn having a set of good ethics!
• Yeah, but meredithea, the dealers aren't going to buy it from you for the same price they'd like to get. You'd get some approximation of Blue Book, which would be considerably less.